Intelligence is too important

[-XXX-]

I guess so.

Your loss.

I couldn't have expressed myself any clearer that this sort of RP style was not my cup of tea.
So no, personally I do not feel like I'm missing out there.

The situation with people having their characters speak in incoherent and incoprehensive streams of text while thinking how much flavor and complexity that adds to their RP is essentially the same as it used to be with regards to the drow lingo in Udos before -xa got implemented as a mechanical language.

Ultimately the objective is communication - that's a 50/50 sort of a deal right there. If someone's going out of their way to make communication more difficult on their end, then the subsequent failure is on them.

[The GrumpyCat]

It should be mentioned that 'stupidity' does not have to be done via speach impedement. It covers a whole range of things such as

*Ignorance to many subject matters
*Gullibility
*Blind adherence to one 'truth'
*Impetuious action

And so on. I've played a couple of characters who arn't that smart and let me tell you it's /fun!/ You've got to be willing to be the butt of a few jokes But it's very 'giving' to those around you and very liberating in its own way. Most folk don't like being seen as 'stupid' because it's one of those things that is easy to carry over ooc. An uncertainty of someone saying 'Wow, that chancellor is dumb.' carries over to 'wow that player is dumb' far too easily (It's why I'm often a little wary of calling characters stupid icly, unless I know they're activly going for that, or unless they've done something that really, really, really is unequiviacbly dumb - because it can be carried over to an OOC insult too eaisly)
So when you deliberatly play a dumb character, who occasionaly makes dumb decisions - you liberate people to be able to insult you that way, and be 'the smart guy' rather than have this wierd situation where anyone calling you dumb is... possibly insulting you ooc too?
I do hope this makes sense...
Basicaly stupid characters can be great makers of rp. They allow players to show off the knowledge, to be 'smart' to make the wise decisions whilst your own character bumbles around making ill informed ones, and you giggle off camera.

This has been my Ted Talk on stupidity. Thank you.

[LovelyLightningWitch]

Wouldn't gullibility and blind adherence to a single truth be more the realm of wisdom, though?

Although, I guess that'd just be an argument of charisma vs wis vs int, since thinking longer on it... I can also see that tied to charisma too.

[ltlukoziuz]

To be fair, should a number matter how you act that much, when you're the only one to see it? The only way to see Intelligence is to ask person 'how many languages you know', but there's many specifics which might give wrong idea; the only way to see Wisdom is by inspecting Will saves, but once again, way too many specifics which don't really help to examine it. Charisma is the only one that can be seen but even then, only as long as you're not covered and not -mimicing.

So if you're the only one seeing numbers, why does it matter that you pull slightly different number because mechanics ask so?

[The GrumpyCat]

To be fair, should a number matter how you act that much, when you're the only one to see it? The only way to see Intelligence is to ask person 'how many languages you know', but there's many specifics which might give wrong idea; the only way to see Wisdom is by inspecting Will saves, but once again, way too many specifics which don't really help to examine it. Charisma is the only one that can be seen but even then, only as long as you're not covered and not -mimicing.

So if you're the only one seeing numbers, why does it matter that you pull slightly different number because mechanics ask so?

I entirely agree with the two points above. And as i said earlier the 'mental' stats are a bit interchangable and most part.

If you have a character, that character should have flaws, and those flaws should work at least approximatly with the character sheet. I really don't think we need to worry about exact measurments of points, or meanings of skills, - so long as they fall roughly in line.

So if the OP wants to play a character with conventinal stupidity - perhaps just have one of thier mental stats low, and figure it to work within that. That should be fine.

[Flower Power]

If we're talking narrative, here, then not every low INT PC needs to be a raving idiot either. Intelligence is a bit of a misnomer for the stat because it doesn't actually govern how smart your character is, it governs their ease of learning, capacity to absorb new ideas, and their relative mental agility.

A high INT character is going to be able to learn many new things and adapt their knowledge to new situations reflexively and creatively. A low INT character might still be really quite very smart, but their intelligence is likely to be incredibly honed in on and specific to a very limited number of topics, and they might struggle with applying the knowledge they do have to new or changing situations. A stable working genius within their given field, just with blinders on when it comes to dealing with most everything else.

But yeah. Mechanically, if you're playing any character that's going to be involved in melee combat at all, you basically must have at least 13 Intelligence to qualify for Expertise (I can't name a single melee build that won't implode immediately when put under even modest pressure that doesn't have at least Expertise. Even Ranger/Barbarian builds.) Which means, more realistically, every melee build is going to have 14 INT, because why not get the extra 33 skillpoints.

[Skibbles]

We can already play a dumb person or creature, but just like in real life there is little to no advantage to being stupid.

I'm not one for pure realism in magic & dragon simulator, but it does kinda fit here doesn't it?

[AstralUniverse]

If we're talking narrative, here, then not every low INT PC needs to be a raving idiot either. Intelligence is a bit of a misnomer for the stat because it doesn't actually govern how smart your character is, it governs their ease of learning, capacity to absorb new ideas, and their relative mental agility.

A high INT character is going to be able to learn many new things and adapt their knowledge to new situations reflexively and creatively. A low INT character might still be really quite very smart, but their intelligence is likely to be incredibly honed in on and specific to a very limited number of topics, and they might struggle with applying the knowledge they do have to new or changing situations. A stable working genius within their given field, just with blinders on when it comes to dealing with most everything else.

But yeah. Mechanically, if you're playing any character that's going to be involved in melee combat at all, you basically must have at least 13 Intelligence to qualify for Expertise (I can't name a single melee build that won't implode immediately when put under even modest pressure that doesn't have at least Expertise. Even Ranger/Barbarian builds.) Which means, more realistically, every melee build is going to have 14 INT, because why not get the extra 33 skillpoints.

I like your take on Intelligence as a roleplayed stat and I mostly agree.
But let me tell you Horc EDR STRanger with 8 int does not need any buffs, or expertise.

[Lexx]

I'm really looking forwards to the long anticipated skill rework, because right now with previously useless skills being made relevant and the addition of additional skills, the skill tax very real right now.

It already was enacted and gave every character at least 1-2 skills they can max out on top of usual int /class bonuses.

[Ninjimmy]

Yeah, Flower Power hit the nail on the head so hard it looks like a tack.

Low Int doesn't mean stupid, it means low information recall.

I'd even argue a STUPID character should be low Wis because it's making foolish decisions or lacking in awareness of how to apply the knowledge you possess.

Also, re: Barbs, you can have 13 Int and still be illiterate. 8 or lower CAN'T read, it doesn't mean 8+ automatically can.

[Curve]

8 = can't read
10 = average
12 = can't manage to fight defensively
13 = can fight defensively
19 = every wizard on arelith
26+ = every 30th level wizard on arelith

these numbers are dumb and do not align with reason. do what feels right and don't be cheesy?

[Zavandar]

just rp an idiot if you want to

I'm okay with an "int tax", server is balanced around it.

And if you want your character sheet to have low int and wanna be a purist or whatever? well then it makes sense you wouldn't know how to tumble around and use a healing kit

Also this thread has inspired me to change my signature.

[Echohawk]

Wizard's didn't.

OH MY GOD.

You know what, you are so gosh darn right.

It's certainly an incredible difficulty for a class that utilizes intelligence for its baseline qualification property and spell slot allocation to get every single skill they could possibly ever want, and don't forget about cross-classing. I mean that's where the real in game money is, all that hardcore PVP, the big wins, all the respect and RP you get from completely dominating every other class. Wizard just is so lacking in that respect..!

Back in reality.

F*ck wizards, they've still got spellsword which should not have access to tier 6+ period.
They've got specialist, they've got wildmage and shadow mage.

They. Do. Not. Need. Anything. Else.

But sure if you want to upend all of the skill points just because the class that really doesn't need it , sure, crab about it here. If Irongron/dev notices it'll probably get updated too since all of the updates these days make perfect sense. Just get enough crabs snipping out there and someone'll jimmy it into reality.

But in my humble no one gives a flying fish what I think, I think the skill rework is perfect the way it is. It was better in my mind to have to actually choose and work together with other players.. in I dunno.. a multiplayer game.

[RedGiant]

I am feeling chatty and charitable this evening, so in the OPs defense, Im not even sure when I last made a character with a less than 14 INT. I think they are saying that one entire dimension of the game is tied to this stat, along with several seemingly indispensable feats. I get that, which leads me back to the fact...Im not even sure when I last made a character with a less than 14 INT.

Its that important.

[Farlius]

Wizard's didn't.

OH MY GOD.

You know what, you are so gosh darn right.

It's certainly an incredible difficulty for a class that utilizes intelligence for its baseline qualification property and spell slot allocation to get every single skill they could possibly ever want, and don't forget about cross-classing. I mean that's where the real in game money is, all that hardcore PVP, the big wins, all the respect and RP you get from completely dominating every other class. Wizard just is so lacking in that respect..!

Back in reality.

F*ck wizards, they've still got spellsword which should not have access to tier 6+ period.
They've got specialist, they've got wildmage and shadow mage.

They. Do. Not. Need. Anything. Else.

But sure if you want to upend all of the skill points just because the class that really doesn't need it , sure, crab about it here. If Irongron/dev notices it'll probably get updated too since all of the updates these days make perfect sense. Just get enough crabs snipping out there and someone'll jimmy it into reality.

But in my humble no one gives a flying fish what I think, I think the skill rework is perfect the way it is. It was better in my mind to have to actually choose and work together with other players.. in I dunno.. a multiplayer game.

Okay. You're wrong, but that's fine.
You're entitled to an opinion, don't be so mad though, thanks.

[Skibbles]

Wizards didn't get more skills because every wizard, baseline, gets something like 8 free feats, over 300 skill points, can acquire almost every language at incredible speed, can learn almost every arcane spell in the game, use any scroll in the game, and any wand in the game.

That's about 10 maxed out skills. Wizards have to multiclass not just for the mandatory discipline, like non-wizard scrubs, but just to spend all their skills at all. I bet if wizards got a skill buff NWN would crash because the engine wasn't designed for having more skill points than categories to spend them. I'm just joking of course.

Hell - wizards were the only class that weren't even affected by loremageddon, much less the skill point shortage. I'm kind of shocked that them being passed over is a controversy.

In order to stay on topic then this also serves to highlight how strong INT also is in many areas. Badabing.

[Ninjimmy]

Wait is someone non-ironically asking for more skillpoints for Wizards?
That is hilarious, I assumed it was a meme because of how ridiculous that is.

Oh uhhh, also on topic once more, your mental stats should inform RP but the angles of approach give you plenty of wiggle room to interpret them differently so I dont think the 13 Int minimum tax is too detrimental to concepts.

[Waldo52]

I've seen some really cool conversation in response to this thread. To be honest I've been schooled a bit, I didn't realize some of these int 8 builds (including some ranger, EKD, hexblade, barbarian and epic damage resistance/vampiric regeneration focused builds) existed. It's really nice to see that 13+ int isn't the hard requirement I thought it was, at least not one hundred percent of the time. Maybe I was wrong and this is how it should be. The int requirement on most builds tones down some of the more egregious min maxing of physical stats and provides a mental stat to roleplay around but there's still a space for players who want to play dumb brutes with ridiculous physical stats, at a cost of course.

I've changed my position.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

It's pretty hilarious this comes up when there are 8 int builds out there that are probably superior to their 14 int counterparts. Having int be taxed by a feat is GOOD. It would be bad if expertise lost its prerequisites.

FYI, one of those builds is barbarian.

Are these builds on forums or wiki? It's not pretty hilarious in the context if they are indeed not. I infact i even discord messaged you asked what the builds were and got no response. For the longest time int 14 being a must on martials has been a meta and the people who don't know how to build and just want to RP a dumb guide are still relying on what is available to them in terms of guides.

[Waldo52]

It's pretty hilarious this comes up when there are 8 int builds out there that are probably superior to their 14 int counterparts. Having int be taxed by a feat is GOOD. It would be bad if expertise lost its prerequisites.

FYI, one of those builds is barbarian.

Are these builds on forums or wiki? It's not pretty hilarious in the context if they are indeed not. I infact i even discord messaged you asked what the builds were and got no response. For the longest time int 14 being a must on martials has been a meta and the people who don't know how to build and just want to RP a dumb guide are still relying on what is available to them in terms of guides.

I will say the build wiki is pretty expansive thanks to Dr B and the other big contributors, but I'm greedy and I'd always like to see some more.

[Archnon]

It's pretty hilarious this comes up when there are 8 int builds out there that are probably superior to their 14 int counterparts. Having int be taxed by a feat is GOOD. It would be bad if expertise lost its prerequisites.

FYI, one of those builds is barbarian.

Are these builds on forums or wiki? It's not pretty hilarious in the context if they are indeed not. I infact i even discord messaged you asked what the builds were and got no response. For the longest time int 14 being a must on martials has been a meta and the people who don't know how to build and just want to RP a dumb guide are still relying on what is available to them in terms of guides.

I will say the build wiki is pretty expansive thanks to Dr B and the other big contributors, but I'm greedy and I'd always like to see some more.

I think there have been some recent changes to classes that haven't really been updated in the wiki build guides. This includes changes to barbarian and ranger, two of the biggest candidates for low int builds.

[AstralUniverse]

Lets put it this way..

There are plenty of solid low AC builds these days. Because of powercreep in AB in past patches it become over time more and more 'worth it' to just forgo any investment in AC for many builds and relay on your high AB to outlast your opponent. It's a solid strategy. I think the main reasons we still take 14 int on most of these builds are that 14 stat isnt yet very costly and it's worth the skill points and Expertise, but if you want to be dumb with 8 int and forgo expertise and some skill points, your build functions about the same in most scenarios but you're rewarded with a bit more str because you have less skill points, no expertise (which makes every bit of sense in the world because Expertise is a strategy clever combat method) and need to RP low int in some fashion. That's why you dont really see many low int builds in the wiki/discord, but there's no reason not to turn any 2hander build (except WMs) into an 8 int build if that's your thing. You then cant solo as a 2hander at all, because they relay on improved expertise for pve.