Blackguard Update

[Dr. B]

I'm just curious as to why exactly Hide/MS was removed from Blackguard. The update thread stated that it was because it allowed some very overpowered builds. Hide/MS are prerequisites for multiclassing into SDs or Assassins, so I assume the overpowered builds in question are SD builds, because the Assassin builds that were made possible by the change are certainly quite balanced. So if it is the former: isn't there an overhaul planned for SD anyway, and aren't SD abilities here really the fundamental problem, rather than giving Hide/MS to Blackguard?

[ltlukoziuz]

Can't find the message quickly on discord, but yeah, the issue was that there was a build which literally got everything - HiPS, good AB, saves, divine stuff. There's been rumblings that HiPS might get the cut on SD, but proper people should probably step in and explain that.

EDIT: Found it. Swash 10 / BG 4 / SD 16. According to Garrbear:

near 70 ac without expertise, good saves, good damage, hips. It pretty much had everything
the 4 bg gets you sneak so you get the improved sneak attack from SD you wouldnt have with pally,
everything just synergized super super well, and honestly it was a really neat build I'm kind of sad to kill it
the sneak attack made it so that you couldn't ignore it without being punished, and it was basically unkillable with the absurd ac
can still be done with rogue or assassin and is still really good, but its not as oppressively good as "this but also with hips"
and also that +4 shadow evade ac
I mean it was technically around since skillmageddon but idk if anyone played it
hell, before the hips partial removal 18 barb 7 wm 5 sd was theoretically the best build on the server for about a year but only one person played one

[Diegovog]

But low HP and CON was tertiary ability. It had weaknesses.

[garrbear758]

See my quote above. Thanks for digging that up so I didn't have to retype it! Also, I don't know when shadowdancer will be reworked or have any idea what it will look like. We haven't even started talking about it. I doubt it will happen this year. Warlock and spellsword ports to base classes are going to happen first so it's going to be awhile. When it does eventually happen, HiPS is very likely to go away.

[Dr. B]

It's worth bearing in mind that Zhentarim Enforcer enables a very similar build. Granted, the class is gated behind a token.

[Zavandar]

There are big breakpoints that make 17/10/3 better than 15/10/5 or 16/9/5 or 17/8/5. Swash 10 is an ab and ac. Fighter 10 is another ac and feat. Sd 16 is a feat, sd 17 is a shadow breakpoint. Assassin 16 is imp evasion, 17 is another 1d6 sneaks, and both are giving more assassinate damage and death attack dc. Div sin is extremely strong. Div sd is kind of just a livelord.

Also div sorcs with hide/ms didn't need to exist

[Kalopsia]

Zhent also has more requirements than BG.

[Zavandar]

Well zhent enforcer costs 2 but gives 3. It can be feat positive in certain instances and is usually at least feat equivalent. Depends on other classes.

[Dr. B]

I was thinking 8/5/17 Fighter/Zhent/SD.

I've played around with a 10/3/17 swash/bg/sin in PGCC a lot and don't think divine sin is *that* strong, certainly not enough that it warranted a removal. It has good AC, decent AB, and good damage under certain circumstances, but isn't extreme in any of those categories, and other builds exist that outstrip it in all of them.

[Zavandar]

It is still doable. It is just 16/11/3, which is a build that existed prior to bg getting hide/ms. It just is back to being tighter in the epic feat department and lost some disc.