Opt-In PvP Death

[RedGiant]

Continuing this from the subdual thread, but this idea is predicated on a more meaningful subdual mechanic which becomes the default as described in this thread.

viewtopic.php?f=37&t=34694

I amended this:

I love the idea of default subdual.

But what if we even pushed it one step further? What if, with a more consequential and universal subdual system, we made PvP death require mutual consent? I.e., something that must be toggled "on" by both parties.

We've had many threads about death and its consequences, and I don't want to rehash them here, but it suffices to say, in effect this is the system we already have. No one dies permanantly unless they decide to. As imperfect as this idea may first sound, I think it is infinitely preferable to the ridiculous discontinuity that abounds now.

You want death to be more consequential? Make it more rare. You want the Cordor Courthouse to get used? Make it so that it actually means something to be a murderer again.

PvP continues.
Theft continues.
Death becomes more meaningful.
DMs get 150% less email traffic about poorly RPed murder hobos.
Everybody wins.

...except the murder hobos.

I would add to this idea here, in that what if we additionally considered a perma-death component and slightly incentivize it? Im thinking here of something like PvP perma-death =automatic character roll, but granting a flat additional +.01% bonus to the roll...provided of course, all other rolling conditions are met?

While death is in a better place than it was, I think we can do better still. I think Arelith is also generally right to automate these systems and carefully incentivise desired behavior. I hate the discontinuity of endless trips to the wall, decapitation, players standing aside their own severed heads...and on and on.

Tldr; We already have a consent based pvp permadeath concept frought with discontinuity. Let's formalize it, automate it, and further reward meaningful conflict that actually comes to a resolution.

[Red_Wharf]

New major award farming technique: grind Druid to level 26, toggle this PvP death option, pick up a fight with some random character, stand still and die. Profit.

[LovelyLightningWitch]

I'd rather there be no mechanics around permadeath beyond rolling.

At first, I'd thought this thread was to suggest the already existing -unrelent command as a way for players who have bad experiences around capture RP to be able to reliably opt out of such.

This proposed mechanic, contrary to my expectations, would make -unrelent no longer a tool to avoid themes you would rather pass on.

[DangerDolphin]

I see where you're coming from. I would say just a change in language and terms would make sense but doesn't need other mechanics to change.

I mean, for immersion reasons I think disabling killbash, then renaming fugue to "unconscious state" and making bodies "unconscious body" would make for much more sense than people dying and magically reappearing alive again on a daily basis.

There's a Souls-like RPG named Onward where if you 'die' you respawn with a narrative reason, such as an old man found you and nursed you back to health at his campfire, or bandits caught you and put you in jail. It would be a lot of effort to do that in Arelith, but the lesson from it was you can have failures and setbacks but still continue your story.

Given that 98% of the time after a PvP death someone is going to respawn, it would avoid large amounts of awkward RP like "Oh there is Bob, I killed him, chopped his head off and made a pie from the rest of the body just yesterday. Now he's alive again for some reason? Maybe it's his twin brother?" and transform it into "Haha, there's Bob, I beat him unconscious yesterday. Looks like he's walking again."


Given that Arelith is meant to be a T for Teen server, it's surprising how we clamp down on bad words and elven fun times but happily accept torture, corpse mutilation and casual murder. So although something like this may come as a surprise for many, it makes a lot more sense to me.

[Zavandar]

absolutely not.

not being able to kill someone for weird and arbitrary reasons is just as if not more immersion breaking than someone respawning. you got gods that'll revive you. why can't x drive sword through y?

mind you the whole "oh there's bob scenario" isn't something i'd be happy to see, and find it's usually done by people that are bad winners that'll be just as unsportsmanlike regardless of how you change the system.

i think incentivizing the use of subdual and following the rules of PvP are just fine. having to opt-in for dead will just make people not respect dying even more because there is the OOC knowledge that another player can't kill you.

[Archnon]

I feel like death should be a serious consequence people incorporate into their roleplaying. I also don't think I should be able to toggle a switch to avoid it. That will lead the 'problem' individuals you are describing, ie the poor winners and losers, to walk around claiming to be unkillable gods or something.

in reality, as much as we would like to, we cannot compel people to be good roleplayers through mechanics. It has to come from them, their interest in the story, willingness to collaborate, and that includes a willingness to 'lose', and a desire to improve the experience for everyone involved each and every time you log in. Some people will never be like this. Others are always like this. It has nothing to do with the current death penalty or any other mechanical tool.

[RedGiant]

Im just spitballing here. I even like what you say, Danger Dolphin. Its the discontinuities of the current system that drive me crazy. Even what you propose would be better.

Great points all.

RW - Granted, but we've already incentivised gold as a measure of long-term investment. I would think the .01% bump Im talking about requiring a PvP death would similarly incentivise an RP interaction to end a character. How many characters have been rolled with no one around? This is a small risk IMO, wherein your best possible result requires long term investment (gold) and the cooperation of another player (PvP).

LLW - Great point, and does sorta show the radicalism of this idea.

Zarvandar - Granted this proposal has its own discontinuities for some, I just would argue they are less in the vast majority of cases of PvP where people still intend play their character, as DD points to.

Archnon - I dont see this option enabling unkillable gods, especially when they can be beaten to within an inch of their life and their stuff taken without their consent. What we have now is people endlessly returning from death, flying even in the face of dismemberment, again as DD points out. The current death meta is much more god-like than someone who gets pummeled routinely.

[Zavandar]

people endlessly returning from death and flying in the face of dismemberment can be and are hit with MoDs

[Echohawk]

A reformation of the reward system is still ongoing at this time.

But as far as this idea goes, I don't like it.

DMs get 150% less email traffic about poorly RPed murder hobos.

As far as that line's concerned there is always someone who's going to be butthurt regardless of reward.

And I think actively incentivizing any PVP with mechanical benefits and ramifications apart from the loss of a character are a bad way to go.
You can take an MoD at any time early or late levels with the character if you want a natural progress towards the inevitable end.

[Anomandaris]

Some don't use Subdual because it's abused to re-enter the fight, even with the debuffs. In group PvP (which does last long enough sometimes), I've seen people get back up, chug a heal pot and get back into the fray or sprint off and lens. While they're reduced combatants, it's silly and creates an immortal combatant (unless you turn subdual OFF mid combat). If you're a mage, this just grinds you down on spells/day until that barb who keeps "popping back up" can beat you without a care in the world.

Even an actual kill isn't necessarily sufficient in group PvP. I see players snagging up their friend's corpse, running them to the nearest area trans, performing a res and slapping them on the bum sending them right back into PvP. I know I know, rule break (lack of fear of death?), report it. Sure, still happens surprisingly frequently and completely ruins the sporting nature of the interaction. This behavior is commonplace enough many of the "PvP'' savvy Str PC playing folks I know auto-snag enemy bodies mid combat in group PvP as soon as they drop. This helps with taking prisoners, but is also so to avoid this kind of cringe grab and res behavior.

Any mechanic is gonna be abused. Even though we can report it and they'll (probably) get punished, it's still annoying to deal with. I used to default subdual but will not use it now unless it's 1v1 or I'm on the side of a Xv1 "gank'' and I want to avoid overkill for capture or whatever. I'm 100% not a fan of any permissive based PvP or death mechanic. The average human will cheat in a permissive environment that presents any sort of reward (even simply pride will suffice as a reward). We're also excellent at rationalizing and justifying our own behavior. It's just how we are, we're basically craftier animals. https://www.hbs.edu/ris/Publication%20Files/09-078.pdf

I would reaaaaaaaally love to see the team's discipline philosophy shift to incorporating more "smaller" IC punishments that can be dolled out more freely and in real-time by DM's for minor infractions. Where a week long ban might seem heavy handed, -4 str or con or whatever for 30 days will suuuuuck and make you think twice about being a tryhard must win. This seems a potentially more effective approach when dealing with grey area items like "lack of fear of death" or "be nice" which do have a big impact on the RP and health of the server. It'd be a better solution than any sort of mechanical change to death IMO.

[Sundial]

I don't think additional mechanics are necessary to make death - through PvP or otherwise - more meaningful. Act in the interest of being a positive participant in another PC's story, in victory or defeat. Nothing should be automated because it changes on a case-by-case basis: some deaths are to be discarded and moved on from, some become hallmarks in character development, some are the end of a story.

[Skibbles]

Hard no on any form of perma death, the premature end of a story, that isn't in the control of the author. RIP Firefly.

I like the idea of tweaking the way death and/or injury is handled, which seems to have a crazy large consensus in the other thread, but I don't think turning it up to 11 is the better option.

This kind of change feels like it would further cement the already present competitive undertones to PvP where players 'wager' their characters on the outcome for that adrenaline high of risking it all. I enjoy an adrenaline rush like anyone else, having had a background in EVE online where you're out blowing stuff up that can be literally measured in US currency, but is this really the place for that?

So the question is: what does opt-out look like? Would players be completely unable to engage in violent conflict without risking deletion at the same time? What happens to people who have yet to git, or may never git, 'gud' at PvP?

[AstralUniverse]

The day kill-bashing required consent, I go play elsewhere. Many things and 180 degrees meta-shifts I can take, but not this. While I do understand the intention behind this feedback/suggestion, it's just not gonna work. There are unfortunately too many people who will play with 0 consequences.

[Royal Blood]

I liked the idea too initially. But I agree forcing the death is important. Because if players can't do it then DMs would have to start making calls like a referee. Even though that's technically their job anyways!

I love subdual though. I have it toggled on constantly and it's been delightful to use in pvp because most of them time my characters aren't out to kill just prove a point or settle s score. So I love subdual s lot and encourage it's use that would help make death more rare too!

[DM Monkey]

It's up to players to inspire other players when it comes to ideas about death. If you can make death meaningful in your RP in a way that is fun and attractive to other players, they'll probably start to do it too. When you want to see change on the server, the best way forward is to lead the way. Make it fun and convincing! Subdual is an excellent tool, I highly recommend its use for the sake of continuing RP with a defeated foe. Worst case scenario, you can switch it off and finish them if needed.

If you see silly stuff? Just report it. If people openly profess that they are invincible because they keep coming back, or are silly about death, let us know.

It's good to take death seriously, but this is also a fun game where not everyone wins. Just do your best!

[Seven Sons of Sin]

When people roleplay death poorly, or abuse death mechanics for PvP advantage, or otherwise are super lame about the severity of death -

I make a mental note, and

- don't go out of my way to include them in my roleplay. I might even try to exclude them or downplay their involvement.

In fact, my characters will probably view them furthermore as untrustworthy or unstable, since their characterization around the idea of death seems absurd or insane.

I'll also just call the players out for being lame when people think they're great.

--

There's no other way to meaningfully improve Arelith's perception of death and PvP mentality beyond being a model citizen and not tolerating crap. Mechanics is a bad way to go (we've been here before). I'm all for social pressure.

[thimblegiant]

I have the most fun when I commit myself to permadeath if:

1) I'm not killed by a mob just plinking around in a dungeon by myself.
and 2) I'm killed in way where there is no chance of a raise (body is destroyed or never will be found).
and 3) The death had meaning either in my story or for somebody else.

Essentially it means if I'm killed in PvP, even if I was just punked because I was in the wrong place at the wrong time, and I can't be raised, then that's it. Time to roll.