Fighter, Paladin, & Uncanny Dodge

[Pala]

Hi,

Hope you are all well! This is mainly FAO the balance/class devs, but I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts.

When looking at Fighter recently, it struck me as odd that it doesn't get Uncanny Dodge I, unlike many other 'melee' base classes. For example, Barbarian (2), Hex (12), Monk (12), Ranger (8), Rogue (3), SS (3), and Swash (12). Paladin is also like Fighter, an outlier that doesn't get Uncanny Dodge I naturally.

It means, realistically, if you're optimally building heavy/deep Fighter or Paladin and you want Uncanny Dodge I, you're essentially forced into a Rogue dip. It's either that, or to go without the feat, and accept the lost AC on attack via invisible or hidden creatures. Overall, this feels negative for build variety, and incongruent to the other, aforementioned 'melee' classes.

I'm curious:

1) Is this is intentional, and if so why?
2) If it isn't intentional, would a Dev be open to looking at adding it to the classes?

I'm by no means perfectly versed in all classes and balance, but I cannot see a balance reason why Fighter and Paladin, at some point in their levels (perhaps, the 8-20 range), don't get Uncanny Dodge I.

Looking forward to hearing from you all.

All the best,


Pala.

[a shrouded figure]

I’ve always wondered this myself, uncanny dodge to my knowledge, only saves your dex bonus from falling off. Even dwarven defenders get an uncanny dodge feat. Seems to me that, potentially…

Paladin
Bard
BG

Would all be contenders? I’m no expert, it’s not like we’d be giving evasion to every melee character- lol.

My $0.10 is free!

[Apothys]

Well uncanny dodge is quite powerful as it advances:

As of Enhanced Edition patch 1.74, uncanny dodge II grants immunity to sneak attacks from a flanking attacker unless the attacker has at least four more combined class levels of rogue, assassin, and barbarian than the defender. (Shadowdancer and blackguard levels are not counted.) For example, a level 10 rogue would have this immunity when attacked by a level 13 rogue, but not when attacked by a level 14 rogue. This immunity does not apply when the defender is flat-footed.

However if this bonus would apply if added to a class not specified above i am unsure.

[Pala]

... uncanny dodge II...

Hi Apothys, just referring to the addition of Uncanny Dodge I, not getting the full progression of Feats. I.e. in the same fashion as the aforementioned classes.

[Zavandar]

i don't want to buff 25/5 dex fighter/wm

[Archnon]

Dex does not need buffs, especially div dex. Take your dip. Lose the primary class levels and suffer the same penalty so many other builds do.

[Tarkus the dog]

like zav mentioned this really is only relevant to the 25/5 dex fighter wm which is a pretty depressing build that I recommend to nobody ( even if it had uncanny dodge for free )

the one build that """suffers""" the most is probably the brycer wearing chainmail of the holy knight. that said I sincerely doubt there's a single 27 fighter 3 paladin character with this item equipped. please correct me if im wrong ( and if so please tell us how are you handling the 4 ac loss when being attacked from stealth/invis )

now onto a more important topic: why are spellswords called spellswords, but some of them aren't even using swords?

[a shrouded figure]

Well uncanny dodge is quite powerful as it advances:

As of Enhanced Edition patch 1.74, uncanny dodge II grants immunity to sneak attacks from a flanking attacker unless the attacker has at least four more combined class levels of rogue, assassin, and barbarian than the defender. (Shadowdancer and blackguard levels are not counted.) For example, a level 10 rogue would have this immunity when attacked by a level 13 rogue, but not when attacked by a level 14 rogue. This immunity does not apply when the defender is flat-footed.

However if this bonus would apply if added to a class not specified above i am unsure.

You know I always wondered why my barbarians didn’t get sneak attacked more- I had no clue about this Lolol

[jomonog]

Spellsword gets it free at level 1 which always seemed pretty nice. I see no reason why fighter shouldnt have it as well at some point, level 12 seems reasonable same as monk. Paladins maybe as well at 12.

[AstralUniverse]

It should be removed from Hexblade, if anything.

[AstralUniverse]

As of Enhanced Edition patch 1.74, uncanny dodge II grants immunity to sneak attacks from a flanking attacker unless the attacker has at least four more combined class levels of rogue, assassin, and barbarian than the defender. (Shadowdancer and blackguard levels are not counted.) For example, a level 10 rogue would have this immunity when attacked by a level 13 rogue, but not when attacked by a level 14 rogue. This immunity does not apply when the defender is flat-footed.

Full Sneak attack Immunity if you go 27 barbarian for example? Or can you still be sneaked if you're flat-footed as per usual?

sorry for double posting.

[Apothys]

As of Enhanced Edition patch 1.74, uncanny dodge II grants immunity to sneak attacks from a flanking attacker unless the attacker has at least four more combined class levels of rogue, assassin, and barbarian than the defender. (Shadowdancer and blackguard levels are not counted.) For example, a level 10 rogue would have this immunity when attacked by a level 13 rogue, but not when attacked by a level 14 rogue. This immunity does not apply when the defender is flat-footed.

Full Sneak attack Immunity if you go 27 barbarian for example? Or can you still be sneaked if you're flat-footed as per usual?

sorry for double posting.

Sneak immunity at that level Barb unless flatfooteded I believe.

[AstralUniverse]

Ok *phew!* so it's just against flanks. Not the end of the world. Thanks for the clarification.

[Curve]

Mechanically I like that only certain classes have UD. Arelith building, because of the UMD changes, allows very strong combinations of damage and ab stacking and that should come at some cost.

RP wise I always saw UD as a skill that lightly armored, non traditional warriors learned and that traditional platemail wearing warriors would not be versed in it. So it just kind of makes sense to me.

[Pala]

Thanks for the thoughts so far, everyone! Interesting takes, and happy to see some people are in agreement.

I don't understand the citing of Dex Fighter 25/WM 5 as a reason deep Fighter/Paladin shouldn't get Uncanny Dodge I. Firstly, it's not a build that's an outlier in terms of power. I would imagine those who think it is are motivated by a bias against Dex builds in general. Either way, I'm not aware of any experienced players that play Dex Fighter 25/WM 5, or are interested in it/worried about coming up against it. Secondly, to use a single, niche build as an example for why two entire classes, including if built Strength (or even Zen Archery), shouldn't get the Feat seems illogical. Or, at the very least, the logic of saying deep Fighter/Paladin shouldn't get Uncanny Dodge I because you can make a Dex Fighter/WM is somewhat equatable to saying any build that can go Dex shouldn't get it. Which, of course, shouldn't be the case.

And that circles me back to my original post: I can't see a logical reason why Fighter and Paladin do not get Uncanny Dodge I, given the classes that do have it.

Would love to hear from a balance/class dev.

[Ebonstar]

simple answer is this

Paladins and Fighters are toe to toe melee combatants. In your face tanks. Not acrobats, not lightly armored rage machines moving with boosts of speed or skilled in ducking and dodging.

Tanks do not dodge anything, they barrel in without bothering to glance at their flanks, hence why they have supporting players that handle that.

Other answer is every class doesnt need to have what others have.

[Vestmore]

I'd say even for uniformities sake, it's a pretty good suggestion! It's not as if Uncanny Dodge I is particularly powerful, I'd say it's more QoL for any Dex builds out there. I don't see how it makes much of a PvP difference because being flat footed is already a pretty bad position to be in, losing the 6+ dodge AC is devistating enough. Not dipping rogue also means you miss out on Tumble AC, so it's still an attractive option for those that want to take it - but it's not the only option.

In reply to the above, Dex Fighters/Paladin's aren't usually going to be in heavy armour (not to mention that even full plate allows for a fair bit of mobility in real life, but that's neither here nor there.)

[Pala]

simple answer is this...

Hi Ebonstar,

I'm quite certain your explanation is not the 'simple answer', considering a number of the other classes that have Uncanny Dodge I can also be 'toe to toe melee combatants' or 'face tanks', and are not necessarily 'acrobats', or 'lightly armored'.

But, thank you for your input.

[Zavandar]

perhaps we should start with listing builds that would benenfit from these classes providing uncanny dodge

like I did. Here's a few:

Div bard
Dex (or even str) fighter wm
Brycers
Heavy wm
Fighter cot wm

None of these are on my list to buff. Perhaps you should list what builds you think deserve this buff?

[AstralUniverse]

I dont particularly mind if Fighter had uncanny dodge. The strongest thing to do with it would probably be 14 fighter, 3 div, 13 wm dex based, and that build is already a thing, without uncanny dodge, because you lose so much ac when you're flat-footed that it doesnt matter if you have it. I'd say this extends to other dex div dexer builds as well (Dexblade/bg for example). It's impactful the most when most of the character's AC is from dex, uses a shield, not a div build, and basically has high dex bonus and low dodge bonus, which is very few builds if any at all. I wouldnt mind much if, say, Fighter had uncanny 1 in the bonus feats list as a feat investment, but I'd also like to see it removed from Hexblade, it was never a good idea to add it to Hexblade.

[Pala]

I dont particularly mind if Fighter had uncanny dodge...

Thanks for the input, Astral, and points I agree with.

I think some people are very concerned with Dex in general due to the prevalent (and perhaps inaccurate), long-running narrative(s) surrounding it, and that's clouding/misleading their perspectives on my original point(s).

To clarify again: I've just been referring to deep Fighter and Paladin, regardless of main stat, not with a specific focus on 'empowering' Dex. Both classes getting the Feat would also aid Strength builds. And in the field of 'melee' classes, which can all be built optimally as Strength as well as Dex (or in some cases Wis, tri-stat, or otherwise, etc), these are the only two that don't get Uncanny Dodge I.

[Zavandar]

I'm still not keen to buff 25/5 fighter wm, even if it is str.

Heavy paladin can use something but it's not uncanny dodge that it needs.

People can disagree with you without their opinions being clouded.

[Archnon]

I dont particularly mind if Fighter had uncanny dodge...

Thanks for the input, Astral, and points I agree with.

I think some people are very concerned with Dex in general due to the prevalent (and perhaps inaccurate), long-running narrative(s) surrounding it, and that's clouding/misleading their perspectives on my original point(s).

To clarify again: I've just been referring to deep Fighter and Paladin, regardless of main stat, not with a specific focus on 'empowering' Dex. Both classes getting the Feat would also aid Strength builds. And in the field of 'melee' classes, which can all be built optimally as Strength as well as Dex (or in some cases Wis, tri-stat, or otherwise, etc), these are the only two that don't get Uncanny Dodge I.

The thing is, once you grant deep fighter/paladin uncanny dodge, then it means there is 1 less class they have to dip to make use of that dex AC. This means, they don't need rogue for tumble and can then take something that is gonna provide more benefits, like swashbuckler or something else. It also means they get to further maximize a lot of their in class benefits which many scale with class level. And if fighter and paladin get it, why not Black Guard and Divine Champion. Opening up 3 class levels for another dip or to increase your scaling is a huge boon to a couple of classes that are already quite strong. Fighter is fairly balanced and paladin class, specifically div-dex builds, are one of the top builds on the server right now in terms of AC/AB potential.

Yes, there is no reason to think a paladin should not be a dex based bounce around on his toes fighter. The same is true for fighter. But this argument can't be made on the merits of abstract class ideas but only in terms of balance.

Honestly, a few more classes could lose uncanny dodge and I would be totally okay with it.

[Pala]

Hi all,

Considering new Warlock has now also gotten Uncanny Dodge I (at level 10), perhaps it's a great chance to use this opportunity to reflect on the lack of it for Fighter and Paladin.

All the best,


Pala.

[Curve]

the old warlock got UD also