sencliff portal

[Rowlind Salem]

Can someone explain to me why team good can't portal into the hub, but can portal right to the Sencliff Graveyard?

There's been a couple attacks on pirates over the last few weeks that have come from this. Two greenhorns got smoked by a level 30 wizard and they haven't been back since. Can't blame them honestly. A Dread pirate got jumped by a paladin on the docks before that.

Admittedly, it'd been a while since the last attack, but it does happen.

What that portal does, in effect, is discourage any type of team evil roleplay on Sencliff, because as soon as pirates start pirating, on the main island, there's a portal right in their backyard that they can't do anything about and they get raided.

If you don't want to get rid of the portal, perhaps a gate at the graveyard entrance that can only be unlocked by pirates, like the estate or locker doors?

[SCP-079]

Would love to see the graveyard portal surrounded by a cage with flamethrowers and a shark pit underneath. Just kidding.

Actually, just closing said portal and instead making the source portal in the estate two-way and accessible by a lower rank than Dread (Shipmate? Veteran?) would be a cool way to solve it. Even though that would probably decrease the amount of people coming to check shops on the Cliff.

[Red_Wharf]

Can someone explain to me why team good can't portal into the hub, but can portal right to the Sencliff Graveyard?

...there's a portal right in their backyard that they can't do anything about and they get raided.

Andunor has a portal in the backyard too, in the slums, and so do all other settlements and player hubs in the server.

[Skarain]

The difference is though that Andunor and all other settlements are larger in perceived scale and activity. Sencliff is antargonistic in nature but does not have powerful backing like Gravklstugh, Freth, Claddath - nor should it have, lest it looses the free port aspect.

Removing the portal will make access a bit more difficult, but nothing impossibly so. Plenty of ships to hire, plus smugglers, plus the other ways there (though some might need to be relooked. Shadow Plane access did not work proper two-way some time ago, i remember a bug thread). The minor isolation may also benefit the RP scene there, with Ships being as interesting as they are right now. Skall makes due even without a two-way connection to the mainland.

[Killer on the drive home]

This all sounds like rule breaks. I don't think you're allowed to walk into Sencliff and PvP. It's got a literal population of pirates.

[ZeroPointEnergy]

Sailing to Sencliff is a bigger commitment then just portaling over to there. It doesn't make us untouchable but it does make it a bother to get there if you aren't friends with a pirate (or a greenhorn just playing the role of snitch) to take you there. While I haven't seen the OP's situation I'm under no delusion that it doesn't happen.

Also I'm just waiting for the day I sink someone's ship and they want to throw hands at Sencliff.

[The GrumpyCat]

Firstly you have some good points, but this is more Irongrons area so really up to him to make any decision on.

This all sounds like rule breaks. I don't think you're allowed to walk into Sencliff and PvP. It's got a literal population of pirates.

This is not neccesarly a rule break. If people are attacking Sencliffs npcs? It's a rule break.

If they're regularly charging in en mass and murdering every pirate in sight and not even attempting to get any dm oversite for this - then it may well be a rule break (but rather situational.)

If one or two good guys go to sencliff and get into fights with one or two sencliffians then it's definatly not a rule break.

The rules are for attacking settlments that if you entering a situaiton with large group pvp, then people should be attempting to get a DM for oversite. But DM oversite is not neccesarly required and punative action will only be taken if a) this is happening regularly and b) you're generlaly not even trying to get DM oversite.

[Killer on the drive home]

So, I normally abided by the rule you can't just ignore NPCs. Do the pirates all over just not matter when a paladin is murdering someone several feet from them where they're exchanging poisons and other illegal goods?

Furthermore, why is a paladin allowed to show up and attack PCs and not NPCs with these moralities? Many of those PCs on Sencliff are merchants, and established ones with shops at that.

[Curve]

It’s the same rule that applies to settlements. The same questions could be asked about a paladin in Andunor, an assassin in Cordor. There was a thread from a few weeks ago that discussed this very thing. I’ll link when I’m at a computer.

[Rowlind Salem]

Firstly you have some good points, but this is more Irongrons area so really up to him to make any decision on.

This all sounds like rule breaks. I don't think you're allowed to walk into Sencliff and PvP. It's got a literal population of pirates.

If one or two good guys go to sencliff and get into fights with one or two sencliffians then it's definatly not a rule break.

I deleted the things that were not going on. It's definitely onesie twosie type stuff. There was one instance where a lone radiant heart knight (not a newbie, been around a while) tracked down and attacked a pirate on the docks. Another, a senior figure in a lot of surface settlement stuff showed up for some get-back on a pirate that had been making trouble shore-side.

So, not really a consistent problem, but a risk I think the locals would (and have) tried to mitigate somehow.

Just a thought, I appreciate everyone's feedback and opinions.

[Rowlind Salem]

Can someone explain to me why team good can't portal into the hub, but can portal right to the Sencliff Graveyard?

...there's a portal right in their backyard that they can't do anything about and they get raided.

Andunor has a portal in the backyard too, in the slums, and so do all other settlements and player hubs in the server.

I actually just discovered that the other day, so fair point lol

[Definately Not A Mimic]

Take this with a grain of salt please, playing the other side on one of the statements. If a pirate is on mainland stirring trouble, they shouldn't have a safe place to run to and hide. Yes, I know, there are other ways to get on the island that even a paladin can use but they are much more difficult than getting to any other settlement.

No place should be totally safe for someone or even next to close.

[The GrumpyCat]

Firstly you have some good points, but this is more Irongrons area so really up to him to make any decision on.

This all sounds like rule breaks. I don't think you're allowed to walk into Sencliff and PvP. It's got a literal population of pirates.

If one or two good guys go to sencliff and get into fights with one or two sencliffians then it's definatly not a rule break.

I deleted the things that were not going on. It's definitely onesie twosie type stuff. There was one instance where a lone radiant heart knight (not a newbie, been around a while) tracked down and attacked a pirate on the docks. Another, a senior figure in a lot of surface settlement stuff showed up for some get-back on a pirate that had been making trouble shore-side.

So, not really a consistent problem, but a risk I think the locals would (and have) tried to mitigate somehow.

Just a thought, I appreciate everyone's feedback and opinions.

IF we went this way - and I want to take a moment to stress that I personaly think the following is a really dumb and bad idea that I would not particularly support - but if we did it, the best way of doing it would be to make Sencliff, all major settlments, and maybe some sub hubs (Grove, Sibiyad and Arcane Tower ect) No PvP Zones. Anything else would IMO be pretty much impossible to enforce.

[-XXX-]

We already do know that no PvP areas aren't the way to go - the Pit Town experiment resulting in a dumpster fire was conclusive.

When it comes to assumptions about theoretical NPC reactions - personally I always like to view NPC guards like some sort of lazy corrupt cops - you can't really expect them to go out of their way to save your hide but at the same time you yourself most certainly don't want to be doing the sort of stuff that could draw their attention either.

[MRFTW]

We already do know that no PvP areas aren't the way to go - the Pit Town experiment resulting in a dumpster fire was conclusive.

Care to elaborate? Apparently not all of us know.

[-XXX-]

We already do know that no PvP areas aren't the way to go - the Pit Town experiment resulting in a dumpster fire was conclusive.

Care to elaborate? Apparently not all of us know.

Players kept exploiting it non-stop to have their characters escape the consequences of their actions - causing trouble then running to hide in the 100% safe zone, taunting characters they'd never have otherwise while in it or engaging in other examples of borderline ridiculous behavior, etc. Think about what Mythal used to be doing to character interactions, but 10x worse.

[MRFTW]

Snip

Ah, totally fair. I didn't think about that aspect.

[SCP-079]

Don't we already have 100% safe zones? As in, Dis and the Tradepost?

[-XXX-]

Don't we already have 100% safe zones? As in, Dis and the Tradepost?

No, PvP can absolutely take place there. The setting merely makes it abundantly clear that resorting to violence in these places is a bad idea with implied consequences.

That's very different from mechanically enforcing the friendly PvP setting on all PCs upon entering certain areas.

[The GrumpyCat]

Don't we already have 100% safe zones? As in, Dis and the Tradepost?

Also should be mentioned - this is just two, not hugely traveled areas in a massive server. That is enough to be policable I feel, and enough that people can't just 'hide out' there and be free from any consequence ever. I am actually very glad we have a few small areas such as this - just one or two tiny safe zones are very important as they allow an amount of diplomacy to occur. I wouldn't want every settlment becoming one however.

[SCP-079]

I was just curious as to what exactly should be considered a 100% safe zone. I've never seen anyone attempt PVP in Dis and only once in the Tradepost, which seemed to be a very bad deal for the aggressor. So maybe not 100% safe but still extremely safe?

I can see the Tradepost folks kicking people out for loitering / hiding there forever without trade, but would the Devils ever kick you out of Dis? Unlike the Tradepost it has Inns, Quarters and generally feels like a functional city you could stay in forever if you've got the coin for accomodation.

Regarding Sencliff, I guess the biggest problem is that low-level pirates can be easily hunted down through the portal as it gets you to the Freeport's most frequented area almost instantly. I feel this might be somewhat exacerbated by low-pirate-rank quarters and most stores and all ships there having publically accessible signs so people can just take a stroll across the Cliff to collect Greenhorn names for their scriers.
Maybe a compromise would be to leave the portal as is, but offer some more options for pirates to stay low-profile, such as moving all signs into quarters / pirate-exlusive areas, allowing pirates to use the Estate portal as a destination and dock their skiffs at the Locker instead of the Cove, perhaps even expanding the Locker with a fence who also offers shovels, traps, thieftools etc.
Personally, I feel it would not fit the setting to give all of Sencliff "Tradepost-" mechanics, as I feel half the NPCs there are just commoners who are probably happy to stay out of trouble and most of the rest are mostly non-open pirates who probably don't care who gets stabbed by who for as long as they themselves are not threatened. Those who witnessed the last raid on Sencliff know that most of the NPCs will in fact just shrug and leave the port instead of fighting a larger incoming force, so I don't think you would want to rely on them to protect you... After all, Sencliff is just a Freeport and not a fully-fledged pirate fortress (if it were, it would probably get the Wharftown treatment)

[The GrumpyCat]

The Shadovar Tradepost and Dis are really the only places that I'd consider activly 'policed' by NPCs for none violence. The Hub too but to a lesser extent.

And even these aren't absolutly 100% safe as said - you CAN still pvp, but the powers that be there- which are extremly potent- wish to enforce that area as a place where various folk... from the vilest of devil to the sweetest of angel, can gather - for whatever reason. Generaly to promose some sort trade.

[ZeroPointEnergy]

The pirates that are wanting to attack people out at sea should just get good at PvP anyway. As much as the idea makes sense that sencliff is literally far off from Arelith and isolated from outsiders, accessible easily only by the pirates themselves the portal there does prevent complacency. Not to mention it also does hurt all of our stores if people can't easily get to Sencliff and it'll have the old Myon problem where it really was just other Elves/Half-Elves out there buying.

Don't role-play a pirate if you don't want PvP. Go play a commoner in Cordor. If it wasn't this portal, it'd be greenhorn pirates playing snitch for [a faciton] that just lets them use the smuggler routes and unlike harpers, that doesn't inspire a MoD. This is literally a lawless hive of villainy with no guards or magistrates. A lack of police force or sense of semblance of safety if you angered the wrong person comes with the lack of taxes, laws, or annoying Cordor officials spreadsheeting your shop for tax revnue.

That's my hot take on the idea anyway.

[Waldo52]

The pirates that are wanting to attack people out at sea should just get good at PvP anyway. As much as the idea makes sense that sencliff is literally far off from Arelith and isolated from outsiders, accessible easily only by the pirates themselves the portal there does prevent complacency. Not to mention it also does hurt all of our stores if people can't easily get to Sencliff and it'll have the old Myon problem where it really was just other Elves/Half-Elves out there buying.

Don't role-play a pirate if you don't want PvP. Go play a commoner in Cordor. If it wasn't this portal, it'd be greenhorn pirates playing snitch for [a faciton] that just lets them use the smuggler routes and unlike harpers, that doesn't inspire a MoD. This is literally a lawless hive of villainy with no guards or magistrates. A lack of police force or sense of semblance of safety if you angered the wrong person comes with the lack of taxes, laws, or annoying Cordor officials spreadsheeting your shop for tax revnue.

That's my hot take on the idea anyway.

I agree with the point about getting good at PvP.

In the context of a world like Arelith it just doesn't make sense that a tumor like Sencliff could exist relatively untouched by the great cities of the surface. We should feel like we're fighting for our very existence, but that sense of urgency just isn't there.

In patrice the majority of pirates I see are generally into doing their own thing, sailing around and having fun. There's a lot of incredible role playing and genuinely memorable characters but very few seem militant or organized.

If a place like Sencliff exists, it should be be definition precarious and well guarded.

[Duchess Says]

I don't know about th

In the context of a world like Arelith it just doesn't make sense that a tumor like Sencliff could exist relatively untouched by the great cities of the surface. We should feel like we're fighting for our very existence, but that sense of urgency just isn't there.

I don't think Sencliff is an anomaly though, there are probably thousands and thousands of pirate coves and other shady little settlements all over forgotten realms.. This is just the one on Arelith that PCs happen to inhabit, maybe it's bigger than usual or maybe not.

There's a danger of making the world too "nice" because we have big cities and civilized stuff like parties and plays and elected governments (kinda)-- I think that's a common problem on Arelith. But consider once you leave city walls there armies of monsters everywhere you look and portals to evil planes and a whole Underdark and other dangers. I mean, Cordor can't even scrub its mines of kobold infestation. Sencliff probably gets to exist because it's only one of many problems and it's not worth the battle to attack a highly mobile enemy on their well-guarded island (an island that, even if they lost, they'd still have their ships and would quite quickly build Sencliff 2.0 elsewhere). I'm not saying there shouldn't be the feeling of fighting for your existence and constant threat of course but I do think the power and reach of the cities beyond their walls can be overstated and there's plenty of reason why the a pirate island would be able to continue to exist.