Feedback/request: UMD-restricted books & Arelith Updates

[dallion43]

I don't really care about the 3.0 discord, or the usage of discord by developers as a form of communication; times are changing, and the way people use the internet and talk to each other has changed significantly from 2007. Forums simply do not fill the same role they did years ago.

What does bother me is a certain translucency where very crucial and important updates are concerned, especially in a thread where many developers have replied with the ostensible goal of transparency. As many people now are aware, there were recent additions to loot tables in the form of UMD-restricted books which, in essence, more or less undo the entire "Loremageddon" change.

To be fair, these came exclusively from myself and Irongron, and most of the staff were not even aware of them until they came up in game either. You can blame the 2 of us for that, as we don't ever announce loot items, and this one was kind of an experiment, although I think it panned out pretty successfully in regards to what we wanted. With that said, these do not undo loremageddon, as lore can still be used for scrolls just as much as it could before theses items were added. What they do is make some of the less min-maxed builds that have been power crept past / made obsolete since loremageddon relevant again and able to compete with the other more "modern" arelith builds.

I didn't find a topic about this, if there is one I apologize in advance.

I would like to ask to consider posting additions/changes of such caliber(UMD-restricted books) to Arelith Updates tread, even if it is about loot items.
If it is *one was kind of an experiment*, then after the experiment is done, and the items are set to stay, please consider to post an update then, at least with general information.

Reason:
Some people like me play periodically and consider reading the updates notes from when we stopped last time to today enough to know what is relevant(~90%) today.
If I had a *some of the less min-maxed build* or wanted to make one, or considering dropping one because of not being able to *compete with the other more "modern" arelith builds* I would like to know I have options even if it a loot item. You made those items for someone like me/that after all :p.
Otherwise unless one frequents the right discord/have up to date knowledgeable friends/lucky enough to read a random feedback topic/etc, one can easily find himself at lvl 30 with ~30 umd after gear(or no UMD) or reconsider playing such a build, or many other very disheartening possibilities.

P.C
Regarding the books themselves, I assume that I miss something very basic on why this isn't a game changer not smaller, if not bigger, then the lore change.
Also, I will take this chance to thank everyone contributing to the fact that that we get new update notes with all kinds of goodies on a frequent basis. You are awesome.

[Drowboy]

They're a loot item that requires an entire class slot. Remember how the lore change made it so you didn't have to give up a class slot for scroll use? Remember how that made it so people ran 3 purely offensive classes and we've been trying to get the server into balance equilibrium ever since?

They're fine. A class slot is extremely valuable. Most people aren't going to swap to using a umd class they weren't already grabbing for tumble or whatever anyway. I promise you.

Partly because people are going to get extremely hyperbolic about their perception of how strong these are and try to petition to get them nerfed or outright removed. (And don't even get me started around building around loot, a proposition that is nearly always a losing one.)

[garrbear758]

1. We do not announce loot items. This is Irongrons policy, and is very unlikely to ever change. If you have an issue with that you’re welcome to try one of the many other fantastic nwn servers that exist.

2. There have been mords and timestop loot items for several years.

3. The suggestion box is closed. We are not currently taking suggestions as we have a very large backlog.

If you take issue with anything I’m saying feel free to bring it up to the admin team.

[TheRagingGoblin]

1. We do not announce loot items. This is Irongrons policy, and is very unlikely to ever change. If you have an issue with that you’re welcome to try one of the many other fantastic nwn servers that exist.

Some people from the Arelith team just shouldn't respond to posts. If you're not good at PR don't bother.

Someone posts a very polite message including saying contributers are awesome, yet gets a response from a contributer that can be paraphrased as 'if you don't like this you're welcome to go elsewhere

[AstralUniverse]

1. We do not announce loot items. This is Irongrons policy, and is very unlikely to ever change. If you have an issue with that you’re welcome to try one of the many other fantastic nwn servers that exist.

Some people from the Arelith team just shouldn't respond to posts. If you're not good at PR don't bother.

Someone posts a very polite message including saying contributers are awesome, yet gets a response from a contributer that can be paraphrased as 'if you don't like this you're welcome to go elsewhere

He's basically telling you us how it works. It's not his decision. Historically the admins never even consulted with devs before adding/removing items from the loot matrix, so at least now there's someone with an answer more than "I dont have a clue. Ask IG and Mord" and I think we should appreciate that. And he should very much respond to posts like that if he wants to, obviously.

As for the books in question. I would be genuinely surprised and quite happy if they manage to shove the meta more towards the times before lore-magedon but I really dont think that's the case. Books are much harder to hoard in your inventory than rods/gems, require UMD unlike rods/gems and I already see them for sale in shops for prices far lower than I expected. But still, *if* they shove the meta back towards UMD dips, I just cannot express how wonderful news it would be for "Balance" in the current state of things.

[Aren]

1. We do not announce loot items. This is Irongrons policy, and is very unlikely to ever change. If you have an issue with that you’re welcome to try one of the many other fantastic nwn servers that exist.

Some people from the Arelith team just shouldn't respond to posts. If you're not good at PR don't bother.

Someone posts a very polite message including saying contributers are awesome, yet gets a response from a contributer that can be paraphrased as 'if you don't like this you're welcome to go elsewhere

Garrbear isn't saying anything Irongron hasn't already said. viewtopic.php?f=23&t=32258

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

I'll be honest, these books weren't even on my radar until recently. I knew they existed, but I never thought in a million years people would be building around them. But while I have never been much for following the trends of the group think because I like to do my own thing, the one pre arelith days friend that still plays here of mine very much does. And he is all about these books, which means that whether or not its the right way to go the perception is that these things are now powerful enough to build around. And if they are insta action items like I think Tarkus laid out in the other thread that touched on this, and he's a smart dude so I would say its 100% accurate, they are indeed worth the squeeze.

Now, whether or not a return to a umd meta is a good thing is for other people to debate I suppose. I really liked the variation over the last few years compared to pre-loremaggedon myself, but if you look way back to the hate thread about that major change you will find a bunch of people saying "casters are going to rule the world now that i can't use time stop scrolls" and little old me saying "nah, melee characters are going to run the roost". And variety or not, that has been true more or less since save for the kinda broken wild mage and the very broken healer path.

The one issue I do have is that if these are game breakers like the trend states, they are waaaay too rare for that and will favor people who can spend hours a day grinding the dungeons with big libraries for them. I'm also not fond of your stated reasoning behind doing this, because i think dino characters should be phased out and not rewarded for hanging on way too long, but I know that's a conclusion I can't successfully convince the powers that be is right so I am only mentioning it for my own sanity really. Just to say I did.

On to the more touchy subject, since I think a lot of it is just frustration boiling over on the part of the folks that took the time to think about and do all of this, these sweeping balancing changes affect everyone on some level or another. From you guys at the top all the way down to the guy who made his first arelith character a few months ago and was loving the game but now has to do something else. So while its easy to say "we got the keys to the car, we get to pick the destination" and no one can really argue against that, its not unreasonable for we the passengers to say "Ok cool, but where are we going." And if your response is "It's not up to you to decide my process" you can't be shocked when people just get out of the car in large numbers as a result. We are certainly not at that point yet, no where close, but having seen it happen first hand on another server years ago I can tell you that when it comes it comes fast. So while I get the frustration and snippy responses from your standpoint and the player base including myself can all do better at how we approach these conversations, try and remember that they come from a place of respect and love of the game we all play.

[Irongron]

Lore offers a guaranteed, effectively infinite supply of the full range of spells. It's a worthwhile investment.

UMD will allow you access gear you might otherwise have been unable to use, and to effectively use many of the loot container items. As Garrbear said, there have been Time Stop and Disjunction items in the loot matrix for years now, as well as many others. Yet, as I've explained many times before, loot items are subject to change, as items frequently get rotated in and out, some very powerful, some less so. Planning a build around what is in a loot container at any given time is obviously an extremely foolish approach. These are not craftables, nor are they fixed class abilities. If people are farming containers to stockpile particular loot items? So be it, likely then they will never be used.

Loot on Arelith is very intended to be opaque, and I do not appreciate seeing that information shared too widely. It should be clear that 'treasure' should be a surprise. Unlike craftables, most loot items are not subject to feedback or discussion, something that is especially true for charged items, which will, in the end, be exhausted.

I just really wouldn't obsess over it. In the meantime I'm locking this thread as loot is very much FOIG territory.