Andunorian Hub Shops decreasing engagement with Districts

[Wenchslayer]

Andunor has three districts and as a result, it''s fair to expect they'll have a lower player base engagement at each one.

While somewhat of a long term problem, when I was running a district a few months ago as a player, I noticed that our income was distinctly not worth the cost of actually securing the district. Income was actually very low, and while great strides were made to fill shops with 'profitable businesses' ultimately that income never rose much in particular because the district was very isolated from the general playerbase.

The reality is that 80% of purchases seem to occur in The Hub and in Treadstone Locks due to the fact these locations have superior convenience. Yet these taxes do not go to a district but rather just go into the game equivalent of a black hole.

I think it would increase the desire to own and manage a district if the hub and treadstone taxes were divided evenly between Greyport, Sharps and Devil's table. It would also give each district even if they are down on their luck a small source of income that they could use to build themselves back up in the event of trouble.

(E.G: If hub taxes are 10%, giver 3.33% to each district, Sharps, Devil's Table, Greyport, rather then the taxes just going into the void).

This change would increase player engagement since that gold could be used to do stuff rather then just disappearing. Not sure how difficult this is to code, but it would make sense to do to encourage more district interaction as it seems like at least one district is always not being used or in a state of hibernation.

Woudn't disagree if this was implemented in Guldorand or Brogenstein or other settlements as well. More gold can mean more roleplay opportunties to enable with said tax money.

Will also note that the districts at this time have no incentive to permit free hub trade since they do not profit from free hub trade (Only shops in their own districts produce income.) If the hub starting giving money to the districts then murders will decrease accordingly in the hub.

[Aradin]

The money thing aside, I'd support a more radical idea. Take all permanent shops out of the Hub (leave the temporary stalls) and move them into the three districts. Then, move every shop in each of the three districts to the centralized open-air market area that already exist in each district.
For the Sharps, move the 2 shops in the district house to the market just outside.
For the Devil's Table, move the 2 shops in the Colosseum and the 2 shops in the district house to the market in the centre of the district.
For Greyport, move the 2 shops inside the district house, the shop at the entrance to Greyport (honestly, having that whole extra area between Greyport and the ferry is an inconvenience compared to the other districts), and the 4 shops inside the 2 'store' buildings to the market area just outside the district house.

Other shops: Move the Shipyard shop to Treadstone. It's already geographically very close, but because it's around the bend it gets virtually no traffic. The Silver Mines shop I'd also say needs to be moved somewhere more central. The Rothe Fields shop is tied to the quarter so it wouldn't make sense to move it, despite its poor location.

Ultimately Andunor would end up with 4 big marketplaces and all of them would be very convenient to access. I write this post knowing full well this idea has cons - reducing player agency over decorating storefronts for those in buildings, changing the aesthetic of Andunor, etc. - but I think it could be worth discussing nonetheless as food for thought.

[Wenchslayer]

The idea behind this feedback was to not reduce player agency but also increase district agency by just making the hub pay the districts.

It would likely take some more work to redo the hub entirely. People have been claiming Andunor is a 'trade city' but the reality is that the districts at this time do not get the majority of the trade. They get the minority of it. Mechanics should back up principles of lore.

[Zavandar]

Will also note that the districts at this time have no incentive to permit free hub trade since they do not profit from free hub trade.

Doesn't this mean there also isn't an incentive to police it?

Yet that happens.

[Ork]

I fail to see how hub shops decrease district agency. I refuse to believe that gold from shops increase agency. If you want increased agency in districts, you can increase their agency through roleplay. Make it worthwhile for people to engage in districts. Roleplay solely in districts. Stop wallganging by the hub portal and wonder why no one is going in district.

[Wenchslayer]

Will also note that the districts at this time have no incentive to permit free hub trade since they do not profit from free hub trade.

Doesn't this mean there also isn't an incentive to police it?

Yet that happens.

I'd appreciate if you posted with more then just snarky contrarian views. Which you seem to have in your history almost exclusively. Doesn't' encourage people to submit content or ideas. Third time you've done it to one of my threads. Add something worth giving feedback about.

[Void]

Take all permanent shops out of the Hub (leave the temporary stalls) and move them into the three districts.

Trying to find a specific thing to buy is already a hassle, and doing this sort of thing won't make it any easier.

Each city has a central trading area, pretty much, and hub happens to be the andunor's one.

[Watchful Glare]

I find all the shops being in the Hub to be incredibly convenient. I rarely go out to find anything else if I have it right there. And when I play with an established character that has hundreds of thousands of gold at it's disposal, I'd gladly pay 10% more if it means not wasting five minutes of my life walking through transitions to get what I need right then and just go on.

I do agree with the OP however. If the phantom taxes would go to the districts, it would actually be worthwhile. At the moment those things are kind of just... There. It's not like it would change anything, or give any of the districts unfair advantage since it's divided equally.

I also agree with the things Aradin suggested. Perhaps not as strongly, for certain. For the record, I do like the hub as it is, but I know myself and I don't even check shops that are too far away or require me to cross three transitions, unless I have to.

But ever since joining I've always wondered what the hassle is with all the district since everyone is on the hub anyways, and you don't really need anything else. I frequently found myself wondering what's the point of the districts. At that moment, the conclusion I came to is that it was about the housing, mostly.

[Zavandar]

Will also note that the districts at this time have no incentive to permit free hub trade since they do not profit from free hub trade.

Doesn't this mean there also isn't an incentive to police it?

Yet that happens.

I'd appreciate if you posted with more then just snarky contrarian views. Which you seem to have in your history almost exclusively. Doesn't' encourage people to submit content or ideas. Third time you've done it to one of my threads. Add something worth giving feedback about.

I believe strongly in brevity. Please don't dismiss that as "snark", and please don't label my legitimate disagreements as "contrarian".

What incentive do you have to police it, as you already do?

[Aradin]

To respond to a couple folks and to tie in with Wenchslayer's original point: of course the Hub is super convenient for hosting shops and Watchful Glare makes a solid point in "I'd gladly pay 10% more if it means not wasting five minutes of my life walking through transitions to get what I need right then and just go on."
My thinking of moving shops to districts meant that the idea Wenchslayer brought up - to move Hub shop profits to district owners - would be solved, as those shops would now be in the districts themselves (and thus garnering tax). And although my admittedly extreme suggestion would make Andunor have 4 distinct marketplaces, those 4 marketplaces would at least include everything. You'd only have to wander through 4 areas instead of 10-15 if you wanted to see all the shops Andunor had to offer.

I have lots of thoughts - as many do - on the centralization of Andunor around the Hub, the oddity of having so much never-trodden space throughout a very large city, etc. but that's not really relevant to the thread. All I'll say is that I think if shops were moved out of the Hub, the districts might see more organic traffic.

[Skibbles]

The frequently extortionate prices and often subpar stock of the Hub drives traffic into the other districts IMO.

I'm doing pretty dang good having a shop in another district.

[Duchess Says]

I wonder how much traffic is lost when a shop is inside a quarter. Checking all the shops in Greyport requires a lot of area transitions and I really have to be in the mood or know it's a decent merchant to visit them all (my computer is particularly slow with transitions unfortunately).

Shops inside also usually require a sign outside advertising such which makes me wonder if it would be better to just put the shop outside, it would cut down on fixture and sign spam.

[Nitro]

I wonder how much traffic is lost when a shop is inside a quarter. Checking all the shops in Greyport requires a lot of area transitions and I really have to be in the mood or know it's a decent merchant to visit them all (my computer is particularly slow with transitions unfortunately).

Shops inside also usually require a sign outside advertising such which makes me wonder if it would be better to just put the shop outside, it would cut down on fixture and sign spam.

I know for sure that I can't be bothered to check quarter shops unless I'm looking for something specific and scouring all shops for it.

[ZeroPointEnergy]

I wish the hub had more (permanent) shops. The less I have to interact with the player governments the better. I don't think I ever want to see another letter saying I haven't pushed enough cargo for the month and they'll evict me because I don't feel like stocking it for a few days.

Also the fact that my goods can be "seized" through a 100% tax rate at any time does little to inspire confidence. The hub shops are filled to the brim with great stuff because they don't have to worry about inspiring the envy of other characters and losing their shop through a month or two long slapfight in Andunor.

But those are my personal reasons. I've seen this kind of thing one too many times to not hold a whole lot of stock in the stability of player regimes when all I want to do is just craft jewelry boxes. I also don't think I'm alone in this either because I find a whole lot of people willing to supply a shop in a prime location as well at the cost of a small cut.

If you ever get a chance to get a hub or a crow's nest shop? Go for it. You will never regret the sheer amount of gold you can get from it and it's as stable as it can get.

(obligatory reject civilization and resource drives.)

[Definately Not A Mimic]

The last time I played down there the shop prices in the Hub were so high I didn't spend a single coin on any of them. I would rather spend the extra five minutes and check other places.

That said, I know that I could take those few extra transitions, buy barkskin potions, then sell then in the Hub at a small profit, still a low rate, and they fly off the shelves. People value their time more than they value the fake money they make playing a game, especially when that money comes easily if you know the right grind spot.

[Skibbles]

If someone is using 100% tax rate to steal everything from a merchant's shelf they should probably be reported and not simply considered a potential risk of doing business like it's normal. That seems like a rather atrocious breach of player conduct.

[In Sorrow We Trust]

When I had the shop in the west wheel, I think what ultimately made it work was presence. I think this is possible to do in the districts as well.

To the OP's original point: it makes sense to me and I don't perceive it being particularly unbalancing to the economy.

To Aradin: I honestly like your idea too, but I would like there to be more temporary shops in the city. In all districts.

[Edens_Fall]

The money thing aside, I'd support a more radical idea. Take all permanent shops out of the Hub (leave the temporary stalls) and move them into the three districts. Then, move every shop in each of the three districts to the centralized open-air market area that already exist in each district.
For the Sharps, move the 2 shops in the district house to the market just outside.
For the Devil's Table, move the 2 shops in the Colosseum and the 2 shops in the district house to the market in the centre of the district.
For Greyport, move the 2 shops inside the district house, the shop at the entrance to Greyport (honestly, having that whole extra area between Greyport and the ferry is an inconvenience compared to the other districts), and the 4 shops inside the 2 'store' buildings to the market area just outside the district house.

Other shops: Move the Shipyard shop to Treadstone. It's already geographically very close, but because it's around the bend it gets virtually no traffic. The Silver Mines shop I'd also say needs to be moved somewhere more central. The Rothe Fields shop is tied to the quarter so it wouldn't make sense to move it, despite its poor location.

Ultimately Andunor would end up with 4 big marketplaces and all of them would be very convenient to access. I write this post knowing full well this idea has cons - reducing player agency over decorating storefronts for those in buildings, changing the aesthetic of Andunor, etc. - but I think it could be worth discussing nonetheless as food for thought.

I really like your idea of moving the shops into a centralized market for each district to reduce transitions. Though I would vote the hub shops remain as is rather then being moved.

[Void]

I wish the hub had more (permanent) shops.

By the way, trying to play shopkeeper with temporary shop was consistently a very unfun experience. Almost nobody ever buys anything, and if you to monitor the stall and you'll be mostly sitting nearby and watching your piety drop. At the same time there are no merchants specializing in resale of things so it is not like you can easily find someone to dump your things at a higher price than an NPC merchant would pay.

BGTSCC had a "auction" system where anyone could try to sell anything, by putting it on "auction" (basically, you'd decide the price). You were restricted to 3 items total, had to pay comission for listing the item, and if it wouldn't sell in 3 days, you'd get it back (but wouldn't get the money back). Maybe having something like that in addition to stores would be good.

[Edens_Fall]

Temporary shops having a longer timer would be a nice quality of life improvement. Say 3 RL hours so one could set up and go do a writ before returning to check on things.

[Duchess Says]

Temporary shops having a longer timer would be a nice quality of life improvement. Say 3 RL hours so one could set up and go do a writ before returning to check on things.

It might get confusing but 1 hour shops in extremely high traffic areas and maybe 1 day temp shops everywhere else would be wonderful. Currently temp shops that will only get a few people pass by are all but useless, it would be nice to just have it for the full day since they'd probably be idle anyway.