Gift of wealth change concerns

[Void]

I am curious how you believe this should have been approached?

As I already said - limit to one GoW character per account or locking it behind a reward on top.
You could also make GoW drip down on per-account basis, meaning if you get two GoW characters, and not one, each would get half the money.
Another possibility is upping the gold drip rate, but introducing a monthly or daily limit on how much you could get from it total.
You could also restrict it to nobility only.

Addressing muling possibilities is another possible angle. You could attempt to automate catching offenders instead.
It is also possible to consider changing the amount of coin received based on level.

I ask because this same argument was brought out against adventure xp

Adventure xp is something that is acquired due to in-game actions, and it doesn't drip fast enough. Last level 30 character I rolled had 300k of unused adventure xp. It is quite different from gift of wealth.

[Watchful Glare]

Time for some disclosure on my reasoning to the numbers and why this change is the way it is.

Prior to this change:
It was actually a mechanical loophole, in that as I dug, it revealed a stark difference in intent and implementation.
Firstly, the 20k segment was being done in two parts so it was already double tapping a command to the database for no reason.

Second, it was comparing real time against in game time. Technically this meant if you logged in at any point in a 30 day span you got the next 30 divided by rl days to ig months for free.

1 RL Month (30 RL days) = 3.21 Game Months = 90 Game Days

In exact terms you got 3 payouts for 1 login.
This is part of what made the issue of multiple characters with the gift an issue but was not and is not the root.

Onto the change:
Why an IG hour?
20 minutes is 4 ticks, is 1 in game hour.
This happens 3 times an hour.
You can idle around for an hour a day, sit in a tavern, relax, maybe do a writ, and still gain 1200 gold from your MYSTERIOUSLY WEALTHY BENEFACTOR.
To me it was as close to per 5 minutes I felt comfortable placing the job of a database trawl onto the server processing power. Remember, this is a server. If it lags for one it lags for all.

Why 400 per IG hour?
You come out on top if you spend a relatively short period playing. I didn't want a pressure to run around and be active.
Let us look at the math:
20 minutes is 400 gold.
1 hour is 1200.
10 hours is 12000.
20 hours is 24000.
17 hours is 20400.
Over a period of 9 to 10ish days this rewards being simply available to RP but does not allow growth out of nothing.

Why not make it require X time to get the weeks payout?
Why not limit it to 1 per cd key?
That's what this is.
It encourages active playing.
Stops multiple characters benefiting in the background.

To the future:
I want to revisit this gift eventually and give it more love, speaking to Redropes he originally raised the idea of swapping it over to make housing discounted.
I like this idea but feel it should not replace the wealth aspect.
For now this is a fix, in future it may expand, but that is for the team to decide. I came to this to stop an exploit with as little harm to normal players as I could manage.

On that account, I believe I succeeded, and I am sorry for those that will feel this due to limited playtime below 17 hours over 10 days.

I don't mind Gift of Wealth much myself as I've never used it, but it's always very appreciated when a dev goes the extra mile and shares his process and intent openly with the playerbase at large, thank you Sincra

[Void]

That's what this is.
It encourages active playing.

IMO, it does not encourage active playing, it encourages being online, which is not the same thing.
It is possible to just idle in a corner.

I am curious how you believe this should have been approached?

I ask because this same argument was brought out against adventure xp and the previous iteration of tavern bonuses to adventure xp gain.
Both of which did see afking individuals, that then quickly ceased due to impracticality and obviousness.

Honestly, thinking about it a bit more, from the ideas I listed previously, a reasonable choice would be to make the old gift of wealth available to nobility. Because you can't make a thousand of throwaway noble accounts, they're award based. At the same time, it perfectly fits the image of a noble.

[Sincra]

I am curious how you believe this should have been approached?

As I already said - limit to one GoW character per account or locking it behind a reward on top.
You could also make GoW drip down on per-account basis, meaning if you get two GoW characters, and not one, each would get half the money.
Another possibility is upping the gold drip rate, but introducing a monthly or daily limit on how much you could get from it total.
You could also restrict it to nobility only.

Addressing muling possibilities is another possible angle. You could attempt to automate catching offenders instead.
It is also possible to consider changing the amount of coin received based on level.

I ask because this same argument was brought out against adventure xp

Adventure xp is something that is acquired due to in-game actions, and it doesn't drip fast enough. Last level 30 character I rolled had 300k of unused adventure xp. It is quite different from gift of wealth.

As you have to be online to receive the new iteration of GoW, and you are not allowed to multi-box to my knowledge, this is effectively the same as locking it to 1 Per CD key without stopping people having multiple character concepts.

I had considered moving it to an award called "Mysterious Benefactor". I was discouraged from this move due to it both being a further limit but also not actually fixing the issue as exploiters tend to find a means around such half-fixes, see grinding and getting a minor/normal which is where it would have been placed.

Calculating per account is difficult and while possible is even more database work that really just compounds the issue into another hole. If it was exactly divided by 2, they would instead have 1 and just let that tick up the amount. Or, use multiple CD keys to have multiple accounts. This again does not address the issue.

A limit is not a bad idea, and is infact something I will look at.

Scaling gold has a point but is a technical nightmare and one I alone will not touch without considerable forethought.
A good question here is how do we define what is the "right" amount per level? Maybe this should be tied into the limit instead.

If Gift of Wealth was earned by in game actions it would be much the same, the major difference here is that it is not, but the comparison is still valid by virtue of similar argument. However, a limit would resolve that.

Honestly, thinking about it a bit more, from the ideas I listed previously, a reasonable choice would be to make the old gift of wealth available to nobility. Because you can't make a thousand of throwaway noble accounts, they're award based. At the same time, it perfectly fits the image of a noble.

Nobility needs a rework and an idea has been thrown around by RedRopes and myself but that is for internal discussion, it will however expand and not limit choices. It may come to be that nobility gets the GoW as a choice.

I hope this answers any questions regarding the process that I missed.

[Void]

As you have to be online to receive the new iteration of GoW, and you are not allowed to multi-box to my knowledge, this is effectively the same as locking it to 1 Per CD key without stopping people having multiple character concepts.

I actually do not recall seeing rule against multiboxing. It is not here, for example:
http://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Rules

Regarding multiple cd-keys, was use of multiple cd-keys common among caught transgressors? Because "if they might do it" that does not mean that "they will do it". I'd expect that only a tiny minority of people would be greedy to the point where they'd buy multiple copies of nwn and build multiple machines (or virtual machines) just to hoard gold in a videogame. And in an attempt to cull down people who abuse the system the idea would be to cull majority of the cases, and not necessarily to exterminate even the tiniest possibility of the system being abused, because addressing all possible scenario is subjected to diminishing returns.

The logic is here is that majority people will play nice, but if there's a wide open door to abuse, and it causes dm workload, then it makes sense to close it. However, if there are still nutcases that try to get through the closed door, but number of those people is low, there might not be enough good reason to alter the system further if that affects people that play nice.

Speaking of which, you can limit accessibility of this gift by RPR. And forbid people with RPR below 20 from taking it. That will effectively shut down all multiboxers.

[Zavandar]

I like the change. Less avenues to hoard gold, the better. It seems like the number of people exploiting this outweighs the number of people that needed it to break even.

Besides, making gold regardless of existing seemed a little weird.

[Guerra]

There was a time when I was playing far too much (not good for a freelancer working at home) and I was looking for ways to step back and still enjoy Arelith here and there without wasting 30+ hours of my life a week on game. Switching to only Gift of Wealth characters that had funds coming in even if I was offline were a godsend because I could just adventure and RP one or two afternoons a week without having to grind, craft, run a shop and other time sinks. It’s a shame to see this was considered an exploit. I genuinely thought that the purpose of the gift was to help casual players out.

Again I don’t expect things to revert but as someone who knows the pull of “just one more hour” turning into making Arelith my focus in life I think it’s a bit of a shame that benefiting from the gift when offline is being portrayed as irresponsible play. Honestly it was never game changing money. it was a quality of life thing and nothing more. I understand wanting players to be active and online but you know these hours have to come from somewhere.

[LIAR LIAR]

So, Ive never taken gift of wealth. For those with the proper experience, muling gold like this is...pitiful. You can make gold a lot faster on the server legitimately, than you can illegitimately. For those with no time? I always thought, wow, what a great way for them to stay involved.

So, here's my question. If the previous thought process behind the award wasn't to aid people with little time to play, can we just shift towards that thought process now and make changes expressly with it in mind?

People with lots of time do NOT need this award. People with the noble award will be a million times better off with a little more int and appraise gloves and rings often found in low tier dungeons that pretty much double, and triple income swiftly as you gear up on them.

I really, really think any concept about people with time using this gift should be thrown out the window.

[Nekonecro]

So, Ive never taken gift of wealth. For those with the proper experience, muling gold like this is...pitiful. You can make gold a lot faster on the server legitimately, than you can illegitimately.

Sure that's if you count one GoW character.
Now imagine someone making 3, 5 or even 10.
Logging onto each of them and dumping the gold into a faction bank to use on their other characters.

Not to mention that not too long ago there was a DM announcment about this where people abusing GoW were strongly advised to come forward before they were confronted on it.
Obviously it has become enough of a problem that they needed to impliment this.

[LIAR LIAR]

Sure that's if you count one GoW character.
Now imagine someone making 3, 5 or even 10.
Logging onto each of them and dumping the gold into a faction bank to use on their other characters.

Not to mention that not too long ago there was a DM announcment about this where people abusing GoW were strongly advised to come forward before they were confronted on it.
Obviously it has become enough of a problem that they needed to impliment this.

I'm not saying it's not a problem, but I made 60k in the positive with expenses in two days going from level 15 to 16 Underdark earlier this week. Even ten gifts of wealth genuinely can't compare to some penny pinching and my particular preference for the heal skill.

I don't exactly like the idea of limiting the number of them, but I can't really come up with a better solution. I just wanted to offer my perspective on it for the people who were using it for the good of their gameplay and/or mental health. It's rough in its current state because I think it's suddenly more enticing to take it, especially with how adventure exp works so I can easily slam that million 5% roll. On a character meant to roll, you can EASILY do without some con or int or dex.

[Void]

Now imagine someone making 3, 5 or even 10.
Logging onto

I'm not sure why non-cheaters should be concerned with what cheaters do. As a cheater is someone whose existence is temporary and will be erased when they're caught, perhaps along with their faction.

If you do not cheat and someone else does, then when you are affected by measures implemented to stop that "someone else", that doesn't feel right, because you did nothing wrong.

Also, like "LIAR LIAR" said, a raiding party can earn much more in less time.

[Ork]

I think we, as players, have to be aware that exploiters manipulate this game to their advantage and may remain undetected doing it. Because of that, when DMs or devs notice a problem that might be more widespread than evidence can be collected, there needs to be a change that might impact us all.

It sucks people can't play fair. But, in the end it makes the change more in-line with the devs' vision & intention.

I think this change hurts casual and newbie players. Not significantly, but it hurts. The server-wide gold nerf has had a noticeable effect on this population while the people who have time or know-how are rarely hindered. It sucks that any improvement for casuals & newbies leads to exploitation, but that's pretty on brand as far as humans go.

[Biolab00]

Arelith honestly, still need more population.
If ban is the answer to this fix, we're killing population in an already under-populated game. Yes game, not server.
Punishment aside, I'm not sure on other players but, this change doesn't truly change the grand scheme of things in the game.

That's just my 2cents view.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

If you don't ban harmful players, the good players will leave once they're sick of dealing with them. This is the real community killer.

[DM Monkey]

We want people to have fun! That's the whole point. This is a game & server to have fun on. Whilst we have fun, we need to make sure that we're not doing it at the expense of ruining the fun for others. We have rules for the sake of keeping things fair and fun for everyone, so that everyone is welcome and has the opportunity to join in on an equal playing field. If everyone plays to the same rules, then the ideal is that the game remains fun for all.

People who break those rules, or exploit the systems we have in place, will likely receive punishments in accordance with the severity of what they're doing. Some people unknowingly mess up in tiny ways, and we gently say, "Hey, maybe you weren't aware of these rules", then send them on their way. In other instances, people knowingly and systematically exploit features we've put on the server to make the game more fun for everyone. These are the people who end up banned.

We have a lot of ways to catch these people and it is very clear when people do this. Personally, I just don't like spending time dealing with people who are cheating for advantage, when I could otherwise be helping people who need help, or making things more fun for other players.

[Sincra]

Soon. (TM)

[Nitro]

This is a character I made three years ago, and after initially playing it into the low teens of levels and getting 20k gold, I got bored and shelved it. All the rest of that gold was accumulated from logging in less than 10 times over the past 3 years, to check the build, see if I want to play it again over making something new etc. I don't know if the activity script wasn't working properly or if that's the amount that's correct for that amount of logins but it's crazy, just way too much for doing literally nothing.

This was a good change, characters earning millions of gold for sitting on a shelf and being pinged now and then is a ludicrous proposition. Even if it's just for a single character that still doesn't stop people from just making their Gift of Wealth character ahead of time, an alt sitting in the vault, and then continuing to play on their main character, getting a free start of hundreds of thousands of gold once they do decide to pick up the character. Or even more egregiously, log on now and then to hand off the gold to a friend.

[Watchful Glare]

If you don't ban harmful players, the good players will leave once they're sick of dealing with them. This is the real community killer.

Completely agree with Party here

[AstralUniverse]

I don't know if the activity script wasn't working properly or if that's the amount that's correct for that amount of logins

Well, it was doing *something* for sure, otherwise you should have had more than 1.5mil in three years.

[Void]

If you don't ban harmful players, the good players will leave once they're sick of dealing with them. This is the real community killer.

Completely agree with Party here

My point was that while generally it makes sense to exterminate all harmful players, normal players should not suffer to keep few bad apples in check. Some of the raised concerns, for example, could be gated behind RPR as I mentioned already.

But what's done is done, there's no point to talk about it anymore.

I enjoyed my late level 9 old man noble who could go shopping in cordor without caring much about the money spending, just like a noble would. That was fun while it lasted.

[Curve]

RPR is not an indication of cheating or not.

[Echohawk]

Focus less on just a few bad apples and acknowledge a system for being what it is, exploitable. However few or many do so.
Lest you slip into the 'why even have rules if you don't solve all the problem'?

Gift of wealth is what it is, the devs have left it in but changed the expectations some. It's not an indication of a server shift.
It's not even that significant of a change. I'm not sure why it still remains an option, but that indicates how I feel about it.

[Sincra]

As per the discord announcement:

From Sincra:
==============
More Gift of Wealth Changes, based on some of the Feedback:
-Now has a limit of 1000 * Character level per in game month for gold payout.
-Payout increased to 500 per 20 minutes.
-Payout increases further to 1000 at level 21.
-Month changes reset the limit.
-Will now actually payout the 20k on being taken.
-Text on the Gift menu is updated to reflect changes.

[AstralUniverse]

As per the discord announcement:

From Sincra:
==============
More Gift of Wealth Changes, based on some of the Feedback:
-Now has a limit of 1000 * Character level per in game month for gold payout.
-Payout increased to 500 per 20 minutes.
-Payout increases further to 1000 at level 21.
-Month changes reset the limit.
-Will now actually payout the 20k on being taken.
-Text on the Gift menu is updated to reflect changes.

What does this mean? I'm confused.

I think it means you get 500 per IG hour, then at lvl 21 it becomes 1000 per IG hour and it's capped at 1000*level per month.

If I get this correct, then..
at lvl 3 you start with 20k gold right of the get go upon picking the gift (if it's true its concerning for obvious reasons).
you get 500 per IG hour but you are capped at 3000 per in game month at lvl 3 so you stop getting value from activity after 6 IG hours, every IG month, at lvl 3...
Then at lvl 21 its 1000 per Ig hour, activity value capped at 21 IG hours which is 21k gold, for that month.
At lvl 30 the value from activity caps at 30 ig hours and 30k gold per month.

Is this correct? It seems alien to me. The part that seems bizarre the most is the part where you start with 20k gold.

[Sincra]

The 20k was always a thing. It was broken and gave 5k.

As for the rest:
Below 21:
500 per 20 minutes (ig hour).

Above and including 21:
1000 per 20 minutes (ig hour)

Always:
Capped at level * 1000.

Resets on the first of each month

At max level:
30k limit
1000 per 20 minutes.
10 hours for 30k per 9/10ish days.

The cap dynamically shifts, so as you level 1000 more gold is available WITHIN the month you level and from then on.
Effectively, reaching level 20 will make you capable of being equal to the old system.
Level 21 lets you get 21k in 21 in game hours. That's 7 hours of play.
Personally I would rp this as being of more importance to THE BENEFACTOR.