The Paladin Update and Wisdom

[ReverentBlade]

8 WIS paladins is a travesty.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

There's no way out of this. Wisdom measures your ability to deliberate well or poorly, and a character with low wisdom is bad at that. Your view is simply that we should ignore this fact. For some reason, I can't. Looking at the number "-1" on my character sheet and then playing a socially perceptive, morally adept character like the one I'm planning makes me cringe. It's the negative number that really gets to me; it's not just that my character's wisdom isn't high, but that there's some defect in their judgment severe enough that it needs a negative number to represent it. The stats don't lie: my character is a doofus and acting like they're not feels disingenuous. May I also play an 8 int character like they're articulate and knowledgeable?

I want you to be right in a pragmatic sense, you are in a principal sense. But no one properly roleplays 4 charisma and plays an adventurer still. Charisma isnt just social intelligence, it's force of persona.

I use to be on the "better rp 8 int dumb" but arelith broke me on this as we continue to do 8 cha builds and i realize we dont want to encourage everyone to do high charisma builds for any character that would have a social influence on the world around them (just means we would all by divine classes or sorcerors).

Do I think rping a 8 int barbarian as some librarian would be poor taste, perhaps even bad RP, absolutely. But int 14 is kind of the baseline int of more martial builds anyways. So you have to go out of your way to be a low int character for every class and its most the time mechanically gimping yourself. If all strong persona people had to have positive charisma, it would seriously restrict rp of more flexible classes like fighter and the issue of rping your dips would even rise more so.

Then there is also the fact that wisdom and charisma have such broad strokes of application. For example, low charisma could be duffoos as you are a social idiot who can't read social cues or know social norms (or apply your knowledge of such). We could also say acting like a fool is low wisdom yet a high cha character is savvy enough to avoid this. Wisdom is also used for perception and intuition. IRL i have pretty good intuition, by my perception skills suck. (my dexterity is also better brocken down as agility and dexterity as i have much more one than the other).

We also have skills, like sense motive isnt here but if it was here and you had a high sense motive, would that not override your low wisdom score as your skills in perception (can have high spot too), and being socially adept prevent you from making a fool of yourself? At most work places all these things just get called 'smart and dumb' with no distinction of intelligences at all.

for RP purposes I think leaning into your stats is a good fountain of RP, but understanding how stats can easily change etc should make one consider leeway in the way the mechanics of certain things work building wise.

That being said, I am all for some small wisdom bonus. especially since we are grandfathering paladins and giving them 1 extra ac in exchange of not being as stat efficient but not giving it to newer paladins being made.

[Eyeliner]

I'd prefer people to play their sheet and classes properly. And no leeways.

Frankly I don't have any idea what numbers other players are running or care about their stat sheet, but I do care about the characters I meet and the stories they tell.

When I say I, personally, would give leeway it's because I believe most players will use optimal min-max builds. Not all, but most. Maybe some will toss some leftover points in a stat with no mechanical benefit. Maybe a smaller some will play a non-optimal high wisdom paladin for their own personal satisfaction. But most will be the most effective current meta paladin... It is what it is. Unless DMs started actively punishing players who don't strictly adhere to their stats, not being charming with an 8 charisma and not being foolish with 8 wisdom and perhaps even not living up to what high stats mean in the other direction, that's just not going to change no matter how much they're shamed on the forum.

I'd also rather not meet the same character over and over and have every paladin played as completely un-wise, so if one was to go beyond their stats a bit to play a more interesting character I'm fine with it. Like I said I don't know what their wisdom is anyway so why should I even care? That's rhetorical, I don't care why you think I should care.

But hey, you all do you and whatever your personal code allows. I just think it's not a big deal. I would rather a wisdom option for paladins myself, like how warlocks can go different stat routes and you really feel it when they do-- mechanical flexibility in character building is the answer here, not rigidity and pushing everyone to have the same build.

[Void]

But no one properly roleplays 4 charisma and plays an adventurer still. Charisma isnt just social intelligence, it's force of persona.

Eh, can you imagine playing as a golem? That's 1 charisma. Or as a robot. Same deal. Extremely low score would mean that there's so little force of personality that the character starts resembling an inanimate object. Another good interpretation is "no presence". Reddit had fun interpretation of that - A party of 4 receives an award from a king, who says "the three of you did the amazing thing", failing to even notice the dwarf who had charisma of 4.

The difficult thing is playing very high scores. 30 or 40 charisma is someone with overpowering presence, to the point that people would feel compelled to obey that person's every word. 30 or 40 wisdom will give you a character who is so keenly attuned to the world, that they're AWARE of every single blade of grass in their vicinity. Similar situation happens with incredibly high int.

When I say I, personally, would give leeway it's because I believe most players will use optimal min-max builds. Not all, but most.

The way I see it, if they picked minmaxed stats, they should roleplay those. Their actions should reflect their choices.

I had a lot of fun interacting with a low int character who wasn't even able to read. That was entertaining and should happen more often.

I just think it's not a big deal.

It is kinda a very important thing. When you participate you agree to follow rules, roleplaying your sheet is one of those. When you adhere to those rules, but people you interact with do not, why should you continue participating and interacting with them? If you play chess with someone and they start using checker rules in the mid of the party, is there a point to continue the game?

And if someone wanted a no-string attached statless roleplay, there's VR chat, and online text based roleplaying games.
----
Besides, it is EXTREMELY easy to raise 8 wisdom to 10. It is solved by enchanted items. If the other party decided to forego this possibility, they should absolutely play their low score.

[Kriegos]

Sorry this got a bit into the weeds, B. Let’s bring it back around because this discussion really underscores your point. There are a lot of people who play their sheets, and for them it might be nice to have a little cookie for not using such a previously defining feature of the class as a dump-stat.

On the other hand, there are people who want their perfectly optimal builds, and would ignore their sheets in order to play the most potent version of who they have in mind for their character to be. Some incentive to have their stats reflect their character’s persona might not be a terrible thing either.

Regardless of where everyone personally stands on playing your character sheet, how do people feel specifically about there being a little cookie for some level of wisdom since in 3e an unwise Paladin is supposed to be a fairly uncommon thing?

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

Sorry this got a bit into the weeds, B. Let’s bring it back around because this discussion really underscores your point. There are a lot of people who play their sheets, and for them it might be nice to have a little cookie for not using such a previously defining feature of the class as a dump-stat.

On the other hand, there are people who want their perfectly optimal builds, and would ignore their sheets in order to play the most potent version of who they have in mind for their character to be. Some incentive to have their stats reflect their character’s persona might not be a terrible thing either.

Regardless of where everyone personally stands on playing your character sheet, how do people feel specifically about there being a little cookie for some level of wisdom since in 3e an unwise Paladin is supposed to be a fairly uncommon thing?

I feel it can be a good idea, but it opens the can of worms potentially on other classes (or races like when you clan of duergar leader needs the stat investment of 16 cha to have commomer level rp presence. Having a whole clan of no presence doesn't work as well as in party silent guy) which I think a dev might not be interested in.


But putting those issues aside, I think it is a good idea. I just want people to realize the consequences. Like sometimes oir enjoyable rp session with a stupid character was actually int 14. Or they were actually 8 but they didn't rp their 6 cha properly because they had a huge presence with their enjoyable low int rp.

Our lead(s) also say stuff sometimes like our lvl 30 characters are lvl 15 mainland. So are we rping on our sheet as lvl 30 demigod or are we rping lvl 15 characters along with different stats? Why is there no measurable rp difference between 35 int and 30 int but there is with 8 and 10? I know why, I am just adding the relativity that our character sheets sometimes possess. The reason is because we have predefined breaking points for low int but not so concrete breaking points for higher values. When it comes to charisma we dont have a super concrete predefined things like unable to speak properly. Rping things like lack of presence is relative to those around you. (Like whole clan of duergar) cause low cha being still not low cha beings and s king needs low wisdom to not notice a dwarf. The relative list, including what we do or dont rp on our character sheets (demigod or not) goes on and on.

In short there is s threshold room for error. Like some characters could have LN or LE on their sheet with same rp and no one would bat an eye because their character exists in that overlap area.

There isnt a prescribed thing like int for cha going from 10 to 8 and countless ways of expressing it to the point that the difference exists no more than 30 cha vs 34 cha.

So being a normal dude with 8 cha is fine. Trying to be super charismatic with it is when i think we have grounds for a problem. But through bluff/perform one can appear charismatic anyways.

[Kriegos]

So being a normal dude with 8 cha is fine. Trying to be super charismatic with it is when i think we have grounds for a problem. But through bluff/perform one can appear charismatic anyways.

Totally agree with you there! An 8 is two points below average with 7 more to go before absolute rock bottom. They can definitely have their moments of both (reasonable) charm/force of presence, and milquetoast nondescript meekness. The balance just needs to lean a bit toward the latter at 8.

Those 4 Cha Duergar can even have those positive moments. They just need to balance it out far more than the 8s, as 4 is, as you’ve noted, really low.

To your point of caution about throwing out unnecessary cookies, I’ve had similar thoughts. Those small cookies may work better right now purely because it’s a time of adjustment and tweaks to a class that has undergone some large and fundamental changes. Maybe it’s giving one carrot too many when none are necessary. It’s an interesting proposition, though, and I like that two pages into this the discussion, it’s still by and large strong and productive!

[Zavandar]

nothing is stopping anyone here from putting points in wisdom if they feel their character should have it

[Sincra]

nothing is stopping anyone here from putting points in wisdom if they feel their character should have it

This.
In addition, average non-core stats are 8-13.
The island is a skewed level, 30 on would not be 30 off afaik, otherwise we're all verging on a gods chosen tier of power.
Thus stats reaching 36-42 could be considered to follow the same rule, compressing.
In the same way, 8-13 would compress.

It's probably best that people stop stressing about someone elses sheet unless it's visible, see "most beautiful, natural borne leader with kind and loving personality" -> Charisma: low.
And instead start focussing on their own sheet, make it as you want to be.

This has also diverted off the topic of mechanical feedback/change to 11 wisdom and I will ask it return there as per the original post.

[DM Monkey]

Do your best to roleplay. Don’t get too hung up on what other people do.

[Ork]

If the difference between a "well roleplayed" paladin and a low wis paladin is 3 stat points, we got potions and skleens to make up the difference.

Y'all really can never be happy about what other people have on their character sheets. Very tired argument & definitely a square on the bingo.

[Void]

This.
In addition, average non-core stats are 8-13.
The island is a skewed level, 30 on would not be 30 off afaik, otherwise we're all verging on a gods chosen tier of power.
Thus stats reaching 36-42 could be considered to follow the same rule, compressing.
In the same way, 8-13 would compress.

It is best not to go there, and keep assumption that stat of 10 is the normal one, but some unique individuals reach insanely high values. After all, adventures ARE exceptions.

BGTSCC tried to tout the idea "we're half of real level", except it never truly worked. This approach would also make one wonder why balors in abyss aren't level 50, plus magic vs mundane doesn't scale this way.

[MRFTW]

I'm certainly not asking that wisdom be mandatory, but perhaps in a future update the developers might consider adding some sort of boon or perk that scales with wisdom, which would be offset by the sacrifice to other stats. Maybe one of the Oaths, specifically, could incorporate it.

One of the oaths does give a respectable spot bonus, a wisdom-dependant skill.

I'm picturing using zen archery, divine might and throwing axes for damage, which, on paper, should hurt quite a bit to get hit by. I'm definitely not proposing it'd be a top tier build, but I can't see it being any less playable than some of my genuinely terrible build ideas.

So with regards to a cookie for wisdom paladins, I think the update has actually given them a boost in baseline power generally, as well as an optional oath that will give them a competitive level in a highly desirable skill.

If there's a build sheet for a zen thrower paladin since the update, I'd be really interested to take a look at how it turns out on paper.

[DM Janitor]

viewtopic.php?f=37&t=22721

This thread doesn't really seem like feedback and has turned into NO and YES thread.

So I have decided to, for now, lock this thread.

Please appeal to heaven (Titania and other administration) should you wish to dispute this.