Stealing of player shelves, a discussion
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Stealing of player shelves, a discussion
Recently, I've heard the upset of a few players who have lost stacks of books and notes, of only sentimental value, because someone broke into their quarter and just swiped the entire shelf full in one go.
To me, a shelf is a storage container, and should be treated as such. Why is it acceptable to take dozens of items in one go, just because they are on a shelf? You can rob a player of years worth of sentimental items, in one go. It's not fun.
I think it would be appropriate to look at changing the theft rule, to include only stealing one book, per player, per 24 hrs.
I really don't see any benefit from not doing this.
Thoughts?
Re: Stealing of player shelves, a discussion
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Re: Stealing of player shelves, a discussion
DMs said that I was allowed to steal the whole bag.
Not sure how this translates to shelves. I was under impression that persistent containers aren't sold, and the ones that are avaialble are immobile fixtures that are part of the map. If shelves are mobile containers, then, maybe the rule should be expanded to cover them.
Re: Stealing of player shelves, a discussion
Re: Stealing of player shelves, a discussion
Normally I saw this sort of thing being done only with shelves that cannot be moved and are part of the map. See mage guilds for examples.
Re: Stealing of player shelves, a discussion
I think it's very odd that you can steal a shelf of a hundred books and it be allowed, but individually taking two from the shelf would probably be classed as a rule break.
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Re: Stealing of player shelves, a discussion
Re: Stealing of player shelves, a discussion
This is true, yes.Edens_Fall wrote: ↑Thu Dec 30, 2021 2:08 pmI thought the issue with shelves was they can be named to limit access, thus removing the thiefs ability to take a single book. In exchange the thief takes the bookshelf but has no access to it making it somewhat pointless to steal.
So, unless the item is ransomed, it's really just an unpleasant thing to do to another player.
Re: Stealing of player shelves, a discussion
Currently playing:
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Re: Stealing of player shelves, a discussion
Re: Stealing of player shelves, a discussion
No. This can be bypassed. It’s still not a nice thing to do.Edens_Fall wrote: ↑Thu Dec 30, 2021 2:08 pmI thought the issue with shelves was they can be named to limit access, thus removing the thiefs ability to take a single book. In exchange the thief takes the bookshelf but has no access to it making it somewhat pointless to steal.
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Re: Stealing of player shelves, a discussion
Really? How?D4wN wrote: ↑Thu Dec 30, 2021 2:14 pmNo. This can be bypassed. It’s still not a nice thing to do.Edens_Fall wrote: ↑Thu Dec 30, 2021 2:08 pmI thought the issue with shelves was they can be named to limit access, thus removing the thiefs ability to take a single book. In exchange the thief takes the bookshelf but has no access to it making it somewhat pointless to steal.
Re: Stealing of player shelves, a discussion
I don’t think it would be appreciated if I shared it. But it can be.Edens_Fall wrote: ↑Thu Dec 30, 2021 2:16 pmReally? How?D4wN wrote: ↑Thu Dec 30, 2021 2:14 pmNo. This can be bypassed. It’s still not a nice thing to do.Edens_Fall wrote: ↑Thu Dec 30, 2021 2:08 pmI thought the issue with shelves was they can be named to limit access, thus removing the thiefs ability to take a single book. In exchange the thief takes the bookshelf but has no access to it making it somewhat pointless to steal.
Currently playing:
Thomas Castemont - Active
Liv McDowall - Shelved
Theodor Helbrecht - Rolled
Emma Young - Rolled
Ember Joyleaf-Underfoot - Rolled
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Re: Stealing of player shelves, a discussion
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Re: Stealing of player shelves, a discussion
While I think some change in that direction would be appropriate, wouldn't this imply that shelves can no longer be tagged to prevent removal of individual books by parties who are not meant to have access?I think it would be appropriate to look at changing the theft rule, to include only stealing one book, per player, per 24 hrs.
I'm not sure how that rule could be changed in that particular way without also removing the ability to restrict people from pulling the texts from the shelf. Doing that would be a nightmare for any public libraries.
And as much as I have spent literally hundreds of hours interfacing with the book system in this game and would be incredibly disheartened to lose even one book, I don't think people with faction/personal tagged shelves should just get to have their books be untouchable?
Re: Stealing of player shelves, a discussion
Perhaps an option to make a copy with the right materials could be an option, aside from just printers?neverwinternightly wrote: ↑Thu Dec 30, 2021 2:32 pmWhile I think some change in that direction would be appropriate, wouldn't this imply that shelves can no longer be tagged to prevent removal of individual books by parties who are not meant to have access?I think it would be appropriate to look at changing the theft rule, to include only stealing one book, per player, per 24 hrs.
I'm not sure how that rule could be changed in that particular way without also removing the ability to restrict people from pulling the texts from the shelf. Doing that would be a nightmare for any public libraries.
And as much as I have spent literally hundreds of hours interfacing with the book system in this game and would be incredibly disheartened to lose even one book, I don't think people with faction/personal tagged shelves should just get to have their books be untouchable?
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Re: Stealing of player shelves, a discussion
Some form of that could be interesting! A way to get that book the person in question wants without needing faction/personal access to the shelf. Turning it into some kind of theft of information as opposed to theft of the book (or the entire shelf, in this case).Perhaps an option to make a copy with the right materials could be an option, aside from just printers?
The main thing I could see coming up then (to annoyingly play Devil's Advocate even further) would just be the situations where the person legitimately wants to STEAL the book. Maybe it's their rival's diary and they want to hit them where it hurts. Maybe someone wrote a text that shines a horrible light on their friend. Maybe it's just a dossier full of that person's secrets. There's far less impact to just... copying a book.
This idea has me thinking about some kind of consumable or mechanical way to interact with the shelf that might pass through restrictions set in place? Some way to allow the theft of a singular book per 24 hours. Might be interesting? It might also be nightmarish. Not to mention, I can't imagine it'd be the easiest thing to code.
Re: Stealing of player shelves, a discussion
It may be callous but, nothing is permanent on Arelith. I’d take your loss OP as a reminder to keep a copy of important documents outside of the game because there is a chance that another character will steal them (decide for yourself what is kosher or not to recreate).
Personal I have very little sympathy for book shelves with masses of grimoires saved up being stolen, much as I have little sympathy for stacks of expensive ingots being stolen. It feels like a reasonable counter measure to extreme wealth that some of it can be robbed in one fell swoop.
Re: Stealing of player shelves, a discussion
I personally find that phrased misused a lot. Server crashes, bugs, etc.. stuff gets lost, that’s tough.Curve wrote: ↑Thu Dec 30, 2021 3:03 pmI fall into the wbthtga camp on this one just like I would if you were talking about a sack full of addy ore being stolen. Both represent hours of in game time, both hurt when they are stolen.
It may sound callous but nothing is permanent on Arelith. I’d take your loss OP as a reminder to keep a copy of important documents outside of the game because there is a chance that another character will steal them (decide for yourself what is kosher or not to recreate).
Personal I have very little sympathy for book shelves with masses of grimoires saved up being stolen, much as I have little sympathy for stacks of expensive ingots being stolen. It feels like a reasonable counter measure to extreme wealth that some of it can be robbed in one fell swoop.
I just don’t see how taking stacks of player made books, in one swoop, is being excellent to your fellow players. Perhaps that line of thought is just more important to me.
On your other point, though, I agree. Grimoires should not necessarily have the same protection.
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Re: Stealing of player shelves, a discussion
1) if you've put bookshelves outside somewhere to be a public fixture. It's fair game, it's the same as storage chest or similar object that isn't behind private doors. You're letting anyone basically do anything. People to take these things are still beholden to the Be Nice rule and if people keep taking your shelves and their contents from one location in a griefy fashion feel free to report it for our review.
2) If it is your house (or you're going to take from a bookshelf in the house) please only take one book. The rename feature for fixtures is intended and (tags) are not meant to be fort knox. People can deface, rename, or whatever any sort of fixture they find in game and thus can get access to things like shelves and message boards. You can't steal a book and the whole fixture. If the shelf is empty, you can steal it.
3) With any theft roleplay is expected - while we'll give lenience to items in public even that should have a motivation and story behind it. If it's a one time hit of someone's shelves a simple theft - a note on their door, the book replaced with a fake book or something, is a good way to show they've been struck. If you keep hitting the same place over and over however we'll be seeing RP is being appropriately escalated with each further grievance.
tl;dr
Don't grief people's private shelves, public shelves are fair game, and while a simple calling card might do for a one time theft - repeated visits = more RP expected.
Re: Stealing of player shelves, a discussion
A couple of clarifying questions.DM Janitor wrote: ↑Thu Dec 30, 2021 3:09 pm2) If it is your house (or you're going to take from a bookshelf in the house) please only take one book. The rename feature for fixtures is intended and (tags) are not meant to be fort knox. People can deface, rename, or whatever any sort of fixture they find in game and thus can get access to things like shelves and message boards.
-When you say, "please only take one book" is that a best practice suggestion or a new rule?
-Currently you can only change the name of a fixture in an enchantment basin. If a quarter does not have an enchantment basin how can someone be expected to change a [name] in order to steal just one note/book/whatever?
Re: Stealing of player shelves, a discussion
Hi Janitor!DM Janitor wrote: ↑Thu Dec 30, 2021 3:09 pmSo here's some illumination:
2) If it is your house (or you're going to take from a bookshelf in the house) please only take one book. The rename feature for fixtures is intended and (tags) are not meant to be fort knox. People can deface, rename, or whatever any sort of fixture they find in game and thus can get access to things like shelves and message boards. You can't steal a book and the whole fixture. If the shelf is empty, you can steal it.
tl;dr
Don't grief people's private shelves, public shelves are fair game, and while a simple calling card might do for a one time theft - repeated visits = more RP expected.
Thanks a lot for your reply.
Can we take it now that bookshelf fixtures in quarters, cannot be stolen as whole so long as they contain books on them? I'm pretty sure that is what is being said. If so, might it be worth a larger announcement post? Many of us seem to think you can break into a quarter and take the shelf and all one hundred books on it.
Edit: Beat me to it.
Re: Stealing of player shelves, a discussion
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Re: Stealing of player shelves, a discussion
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And not it can't be done with containers for now. While we want to be able to police containers and stacks of items the way tracking works is a bit more difficult to sort through by normal, mortal means. I think someone on the development team will address this eventually so it can be, though.
It's something that is a bit of a weird line with theft rules but right now has to by its limitations operate under the golden rule.
Bookshelves, however, are different. They are fixtures. We can see when someone has fiddled with them.
Here's to the new year and the expansion of the police state.
Re: Stealing of player shelves, a discussion
If so putting a [tag] on the fixture prevents anything from being stolen as it relates to notes. I’m not sure about books. Can someone chime in who knows?