Monk Speed from the Meetup

[Void]

(As I didn't get the chance to voice the opinion)

THere are counters to fast moving characters.

Those are traps, slow spells, entangle, grease, ranged attacks, ranged touch beam attacks, magic, magic aoe, rogue bombs.

There are entire areas in underdark filled with creatures whose only purpose in life is to cast slow.

Additionally, at the moment there are characters that can move faster than monks, and some of them can do that indefinitely.

Since the last monk nerf, I haven't seen a whole lot of monks about. To be more specific, I've only seen one, and then they mysteriously disappeared. The changes also reduced flavor and ways to build, as far as I know.

Regarding "Spiritual monks"... in FR there are Wu Jen and Sacred Fist classes.

[Dr. B]

Between evasion, reflex saves, AC, and spell resistance, practically none of those strategies will work on a monk.

[AstralUniverse]

Since the last monk nerf, I haven't seen a whole lot of monks about.

Good.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

Between evasion, reflex saves, AC, and spell resistance, practically none of those strategies will work on a monk.

SR is capped, reflex doesny stop slow grease i thought.


Rogues with blinding speed and sprint pretty much can always have said speed up as free actions.

*edit*

Tbh. I was waiting for dust to settle more on monks before doing a very extensive post in the future.

[Arienette]

1. I stopped playing my monk after speed nerf. Have now rolled her. Zooming around was one of the best things about the class. It wasn’t fun anymore. I have spoken with several people who say the same thing and have also given up their monks.

2. The team is really anti-monk. Like, seriously. When the speed nerf went in, I saw multiple instances on discord where people were saying things like “I really don’t find the class fun anymore” or “it seems like they just want us to stop playing monks.” And were met with responses from the dev team along the lines of “yes, basically that’s the point, roll your monks.”

I am mentioning point number 2 so that you know that this isn’t something they didn’t think through all the way, or was done casually. The folks in charge of class maintenance seemingly really really didn’t like fast monks, and perhaps monks in general.

[AstralUniverse]

The team is really anti-monk.

The team is not anti-monks.

The team is anti any super wonky base nwn stuff that's impossible to balance. Like monk, among other things. Gnome might be an exception here tho.

[Void]

2. The team is really anti-monk. Like, seriously. When the speed nerf went in, I saw multiple instances on discord where people were saying things like “I really don’t find the class fun anymore” or “it seems like they just want us to stop playing monks.” And were met with responses from the dev team along the lines of “yes, basically that’s the point, roll your monks.”

Honestly, reminds me of that statement on the meeting.

"The monk is a class that is hard to get right, so we thought about removing it entirely".

[Ebonstar]

Amadeo esque Monk Speed aka the lightning monk Irongron mentioned did need to have the speed nerfed. I recall once all i saw was a dust movement on a road, and found out later that he had run past like the Flash.

Other classes have speed increases or feats to give increases and there are spells of course. Monks should have access to at least that much speed imo once they hit lvl 20 and technically become an outsider, since they are not bound by all the constrictions of the material plane.

right now People can build a DR breaker Monk or a Dodgey Monk or a Tank Monk, but they are not the all in one untouchable class anymore.

One thing that should be put back is throwing weapons that the monk use (shuriken, knife, axe) being tied to the unarmed attacks per round simply due to the fact that they are all tiny damage dealers and the extra attacks make them viable. Sai being a defensive weapon i would tie in as well, due to it being something that works in close quarter and is just an extension of the hands.

The Team is not Anti Monk. Speed isnt the only thing that make monks fun. I for example mix them in with a six level dip when i make my sneaky ninja type character. It isnt an Optimized build ( i hate that term for even being created for this game btw) but its fun to play because it can do alot of different things.

Maybe the Monk Path idea that got thrown out is a good idea if we can get a dev on board to create them.

[-XXX-]

Vanilla NWN Monk's gimmick is being OP = bad design.

The fact that after removing all the overpowering elements from the class we ended up with a sad pile of meh is self-explanatory.


IMO the team should have removed the class entirely as it doesn't fit the setting thematically either (but this is my subjective opinion).
Instead they've done the next best thing - by nerfing the class they opened up the design space for other builds and any future iteration of the monk class.

[RedGiant]

None of these "speed is imbalancing" as a design point arguements hold much water for me when it is taken away from a melee class - monk, and given to a ranged class - warlock.

[Aren]

None of these "speed is imbalancing" as a design point arguements hold much water for me when it is taken away from a melee class - monk, and given to a ranged class - warlock.

You cannot dispel monk speed.



These are numbers monks can fairly easily achieve. (Remove 3-4 AC as I think this particular image has cleric buffs, but add another 4ab because of small race / monk bonuses.)
Couple that with permanent undispellable haste (The 150% movement speed), you have something that is incredibly durable while also able to deal significant amount of pressure damage, corner sneak and just plain run away if things get dicey.

Addendum: This is not even a fully geared monk.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

None of these "speed is imbalancing" as a design point arguements hold much water for me when it is taken away from a melee class - monk, and given to a ranged class - warlock.

Or barb rage + sprint has a lot of speed up time. A rogue with blinding speed+ sprint has 100% speed uptime.

I understood this speed cap. But i think removing the static 150% speed was catering to the wishes/opinions of a group vs everyone and not even a balance issue when looking at all the other ways to sustain those speeds.

Anyways, monks wont ever grt proper justice until someone responsible for balancing them is Also passionate about reworking them for reasons beyond balance.

We need alternative solutions. I want to do a huge write up one day.

For example giving monks free blinding soeed could allow str monks memes to live for damage roll and help compensate monks losing static speed boost while retaining the monk feel of zooming. (What's a rock lee character without strength and movement speed?)

[Arienette]

Amadeo esque Monk Speed aka the lightning monk Irongron mentioned did need to have the speed nerfed. I recall once all i saw was a dust movement on a road, and found out later that he had run past like the Flash.

Other classes have speed increases or feats to give increases and there are spells of course. Monks should have access to at least that much speed imo once they hit lvl 20 and technically become an outsider, since they are not bound by all the constrictions of the material plane.

right now People can build a DR breaker Monk or a Dodgey Monk or a Tank Monk, but they are not the all in one untouchable class anymore.

One thing that should be put back is throwing weapons that the monk use (shuriken, knife, axe) being tied to the unarmed attacks per round simply due to the fact that they are all tiny damage dealers and the extra attacks make them viable. Sai being a defensive weapon i would tie in as well, due to it being something that works in close quarter and is just an extension of the hands.

The Team is not Anti Monk. Speed isnt the only thing that make monks fun. I for example mix them in with a six level dip when i make my sneaky ninja type character. It isnt an Optimized build ( i hate that term for even being created for this game btw) but its fun to play because it can do alot of different things.

Maybe the Monk Path idea that got thrown out is a good idea if we can get a dev on board to create them.

Just to clarify, the old-old super stacking monk speed was stupid, I agree. The main reason I never played a monk until more recently is because I thought that kind of speed was patently ridiculous and even immersion-breaking.

I think the more recent 50 percent monk speed bonus was fun and appropriate, IMO. It made the class very fun to play in terms of exploring the server. A combination of speed, stealth, and high AC allowed me to go a lot of places I had never been before.

Apparently, as far as I could gather in the aftermath of the speed nerf, the 50 percent speed was problematic in PvP. That was not my experience, but whatever. I am willing to accept that it was a problem. But dropping it to a flat 10 percent regardless of monk lvls seems to me an attempt to make the class less enticing overall, not just to nerf its PvP capability. I suggested at the time some various ways to balance for PvP without stripping so much of the fun away. Along the lines of: Rangers get a speed bonus out of combat. It goes away in combat. Let the monks keep their speed bonus but cause it to drop off in combat ala Ranger.

Deep Monks being significantly faster than other characters strikes me as a core class feature. Removing it strikes me as similar to playing a Cavalier if horses were removed from the game. Or removing Divine Shield/Might from Paladins. Or summons from wizards, or healing spells from clerics, or shapeshifting from druids.

I wont say anything more on the topic as I feel like I am beating a dead horse, and the show-runners have made themselves pretty clear on the topic.

[Void]

Along the lines of: Rangers get a speed bonus out of combat. It goes away in combat. Let the monks keep their speed bonus but cause it to drop off in combat ala Ranger.

That constant speed toggle, by the way, is infuriatingly annoying. On the "flip the table" level annoying, because when combat starts, you slow down, and when it ends, you remain slowed down for six seconds.

On topic of speed, rogues have permanent speed bonus in stealth, and it is possible to achieve infinite blinding speed with them.

Which makes one wonder what was the point of reducing monk speed when there are classes that can move faster.

[Watchful Glare]

To my understanding, it has to do with the way the whole kit interacts with them also having permanent haste. It's not an isolated element.

[RedGiant]

Several posts here imply that monks had permanent haste. 50% movement increase does not equal permanent haste.

Indeed, monk movement speed increase was not dispellable. Two points here. It is a core class mechanic for iterations of DnD, and despite not-being dispellable, it is counterable. Per the original OP, there are a variety of Arelith spell improvements which work despite SR and even on a made reflex save. I say this as someone whose character killed the supposedly unkillable monk in the days of ZOOM.

Circling back to my original point. Not only do Warlocks get these speed counters, on an optimal Warlock 30 build, neither is haste practically dispellable, let alone on those that build with the abjuration suite (such as mine does). In addition, most Warlocks will take extend spell for the 60 rounds of haste and all Warlocks have haste on infinicast with a timer you will always exceed upon reaching mid-levels. Heck, even if it is dispelled, you likely have at least 3-4 more casts of it on hand to reapply at any given time. All of this rationale precludes the fact of you being clever enough to work in Feylock as your primary or secondary pact, in which case you never ever ever...ever run out of haste.

Which brings us back to my point above, not dispelled (bah-dum-tiss) by your svirf-monk picture, that if permanent movement speed is the problem we say it is, then its certainly a far worse problem on a ranged class that can take full advantage of all the kiting problems we all know to be there.

[-XXX-]

A) Virtually any character has access to infinite haste via spell, potion, wand or ability. These sources of haste have a tempo cost of activation and can be removed.

B) Monks had increased movement speed on all the time forever and ever and it could not be removed in any way and under any circumstances ever.

A =/= B
Stating that B is fine because A applies is false.

[RedGiant]

B) Monks had increased movement speed on all the time forever and ever and it could not be removed in any way and under any circumstances ever.

Your assertion here is categorically false, as stated in the OP and in my post. E.g. Entangle, which bypasses SR on Arelith and inflicts a 50% movement speed penalty even on a made reflex save. As alluded to above, this spell is in the Feylock arsenal.

Stating that 1 of 2 spell actions every 60 rounds is a meaningful tempo cost is also false.

[-XXX-]

Stating that 1 of 2 spell actions every 60 rounds is a meaningful tempo cost is also false.

What is and isn't meaningful is a matter of subjective opinion.
Objectively, some cost is higher than no cost.

Furthermore, all sources of current haste can be countered and/or intercepted. Neither of which applied to monk speed.


Anyway, why are we even having this conversation? It's been stated that the monk became a detriment for the server's design space.
It's been also stated that monk might recieve an overhaul in the future.

[AstralUniverse]

Anyways, monks wont ever grt proper justice until someone responsible for balancing them is Also passionate about reworking them for reasons beyond balance.

The 2019 movie "Monk Summer" sucked and I think we shouldnt do any sequels. If anyone is ever passionate about rebalancing monk, it should definitely be someone with deep understanding of the NWN wonkiness, character building, PVP and Balance(tm), like our current devs, and if they arent doing that then they got better things to do and that's what it is.

Over all, I think Monk is a pretty strong class as is. If few people are playing them that's because few people are into that RP right now and arent playing them for mechanical reasons, which is probably good and oddly enough more in line with how vanilla monk was digested. Nice.

[jomonog]

I know ill get shouted down but honestly if youre pvp'ing on a monk without being hasted from blinding speed or potions then youre doing it wrong. You really cant afford to be 1 apr and 4 ac down. The only thing the speed helped with PVP was getting away without dying when you had little chance of winning. Reducing speed to 110% is a PVE qol nerf primarily I can only assume to discourage a good majority of people from playing the class.

[Kenji]

Monk is getting its speed back up to 125% that scales with monk levels, however due to many other balance adjustments still being processed, this hasn't hit live yet.

[Archnon]

I know ill get shouted down but honestly if youre pvp'ing on a monk without being hasted from blinding speed or potions then youre doing it wrong. You really cant afford to be 1 apr and 4 ac down. The only thing the speed helped with PVP was getting away without dying when you had little chance of winning. Reducing speed to 110% is a PVE qol nerf primarily I can only assume to discourage a good majority of people from playing the class.

Never built a monk and didn't take blinding speed for exactly this reason! 4 AC and 1 Apr is huge. This is dead on.

You could give monk blinding speed cool down reduction like rogue then it would be dispellable speed and everyone would be happy.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

Anyways, monks wont ever grt proper justice until someone responsible for balancing them is Also passionate about reworking them for reasons beyond balance.

The 2019 movie "Monk Summer" sucked and I think we shouldnt do any sequels. If anyone is ever passionate about rebalancing monk, it should definitely be someone with deep understanding of the NWN wonkiness, character building, PVP and Balance(tm), like our current devs, and if they arent doing that then they got better things to do and that's what it is.

Over all, I think Monk is a pretty strong class as is. If few people are playing them that's because few people are into that RP right now and arent playing them for mechanical reasons, which is probably good and oddly enough more in line with how vanilla monk was digested. Nice.

I agree. I said both, not one or the other.

[Void]

Monk is getting its speed back up to 125% that scales with monk levels, however due to many other balance adjustments still being processed, this hasn't hit live yet.

You should probably consider getting it up to 150% and then simply disable haste and blinding speed for monks.