Monk Speed from the Meetup

[Ping14]

I've played alot of monks in my years of playing here. And honestly, with the state of arelith now, losing the speed didn't give me much of an issue. I seldom PVP tho, so take it at that. My observations (change is abrupt for me, had a 7 years hiatus and all changes were wonderful to me, so take the opinion below with some grain of salt):

Loss of speed didn't made much of an impact, atleast when exploring. True that we now have bigger maps, but also the mentality of "strictly" walking has changed through the years. Before, the maps were alot smaller, and people can definitely do perma walk all day without a loss of QoL (Its even an issue that monk is just way too fast, and was requested several times to have -naturalwalk). But now, running seems to be widely accepted as a mode of getting to point A-B, usually slowing down on meeting strangers or the like.

When you walk, its usually when you're doing more RP intensive dungeon runs. Building rapport, building character, making bonds and the like.

The usual dungeon run nowadays is like this anyway:
1. Form a group select a dungeon
2. Run, run... see hostile, engage!
3. Type while fighting (more of action-esque, type of RP)
4. When cautious, or wary of traps, walk, walk. Boss/Hard enemies ahead, formations, walk, then CHARGE!

If brought back to 125% with level scaling, I think it would affect mostly PVP. With PVE, it doesn't change much aside from being able to grind alot quicker (making them one of the best rune/loot runners). Tho I hope, when it comes back to 125%, people would still be courteous with their dungeon runs. I've been in several situations where a perma invis+haste runner just zipped passed me with me trying to engage in small talk with an exclamation, only to be looking at a botched writ that I have to wait outside for since the final area is already cleared. That feeling sucked, but you just have to camp it out and just wait your turn to get another boss/mob

[AstralUniverse]

Monk is getting its speed back up to 125% that scales with monk levels, however due to many other balance adjustments still being processed, this hasn't hit live yet.

You should probably consider getting it up to 150% and then simply disable haste and blinding speed for monks.

Everyone is capped at 150% now, no matter what bonuses to movement they get, haste will get everyone to 150%. If you're suggesting to disable the movement speed bonus from haste so they dont stack, no need to do that- they already dont stack. If you mean disabling haste *entirely* (the ac and apr as well) it would be a huge unneeded nerf at this point.

[Zanithar]

1. I stopped playing my monk after speed nerf. Have now rolled her. Zooming around was one of the best things about the class. It wasn’t fun anymore. I have spoken with several people who say the same thing and have also given up their monks.

2. The team is really anti-monk. Like, seriously. When the speed nerf went in, I saw multiple instances on discord where people were saying things like “I really don’t find the class fun anymore” or “it seems like they just want us to stop playing monks.” And were met with responses from the dev team along the lines of “yes, basically that’s the point, roll your monks.”

I am mentioning point number 2 so that you know that this isn’t something they didn’t think through all the way, or was done casually. The folks in charge of class maintenance seemingly really really didn’t like fast monks, and perhaps monks in general.

I stopped playing mine when I mentioned in Discord that the speed nerf took away the last fun thing for me about the class and the Developer response was something along the lines of:
"I thrive on your tears and your feelings are useless as they offer little in the way of a constructive response"

I thought to myself ... well ... "not fun is not fun, balance or no balance". The response did not really bother me, it just seemed ... really definitive that there was no chance of the class becoming fun again.

[Curve]

I rolled my monk after playing with the last speed changes a while and for the same reason as the above posters.

[Cabarcos]

Just about running, I usually don't play monks:
I, at last, leveled my first character to level 30 and it's one that almost never runs. He doesn't run usually because if he does his left hurts a lot (not even in combat). It took me some time to get used to it, but in the end, the "need" I usually feel to run disappeared.
I've now a new one too, a fighter and he runs sometimes, mainly in combat.
In this case, is for a RP reason, but it really depends on one's perspective.
I'm usually wandering around alone and takes me some time to move from A to B. You can teleport to the nearest point and then move on foot or use a horse.

What I mean is that it's possible to have fun without running.

[Curve]

I don’t think anyone is talking about running.

[Baseili]

I'd much appreciate if monk could divert from the "shaolin fighting monk" its been pigeonholed into and branch out to cover over fighting monks from different regions. Perhaps by adding certain weapons to the flurry of blows feat but leave UBAB solely for unarmed, and begin the combat mastery with weapons to align with the unarmed bonuses.

As for the speed, it was stupid to begin with so why not fold in some level bonus to the duration of sprint instead? That combined with the fall damage reduction I think would be far more fitting of superb physical training than outpacing horses while running. I'd also like to see some options for strength variants beyond quad stating gear, or tri if you wish to ignore Con, perhaps paths that allow armour or grant class AC back for 10 base dex or under?

[Cabarcos]

I don’t think anyone is talking about running.

Not running means that you are moving slower. What I mean, is that you don't really need to have that extra speed to have fun, and for the character to be playable.
I understand that it can be a big change and can annoy some people a lot. I shelved some characters for less.
In PvP, I suppose it could be a great change (I don't look for don't PvP, it finds me from time to time), but in PvE, you can adapt more easily.

It's a question of personal taste and what makes you happy, but for me, no challenge means no fun.

[Duchess Says]

Sure but what's "playable?" Can still fight well in PVP and PVE? That's good and what lots of players are looking for but others maybe not. Monk speed was a core feature of the class in base NWN and D&D itself so it's not unreasonable that's the draw for some players. Take too many unique features away and classes start to feel really same-y.

I just don't think you should be telling others "you don't need XXX to have fun." Your idea of "fun" isn't everyone else's fun, and this being a purely recreational activity "fun" is the only reason we're here.

[Cabarcos]

I was just stating my opinion, if that was not clear enough. We all have one and it doesn't have to be the same.

[Skane]

Perhaps max out sprint speed for monks, like how minotaurs currently work?

[Bunnysmack]

As someone who has been warry for years of monk power creep, even I think that giving them max sprint as default, at least by X level, makes sense. I'm just not in favor of changes that let them go back ABOVE 150%.

[AstralUniverse]

As someone who has been warry for years of monk power creep, even I think that giving them max sprint as default, at least by X level, makes sense. I'm just not in favor of changes that let them go back ABOVE 150%.

If it's for short durations (relatively short in the case of Sprint) and with cooldowns, it's not so bad. The main problem with monk speed was the abuse of it, repeatedly, running in and out to hit and run in pvp, and build space to corner sneak and use kits and shrug off any slow aoe, et cetra. I dont think it's particularly harmful if a Monk could do that once in pvp for short window. Seems interesting.

[-XXX-]

150% movement speed cap for everyone was a good addition. No class should be able to exceed it.

As Irongron stated during the meetup, movement shenanigans are one of the most mechanically broken things that you can be doing in NWN.
So yes, allowing the monk to move faster than everyone else again (even for a split second) would most definitely be harmful.

[jomonog]

If it goes back to scaling up to 125% like Kenji stated then I think thats a very reasonable solution. Slightly more move speed from where it currently sits will be nice in PVE and IMO won't really be a factor PVP. I dont think the class needs any special treatment with sprint

[AstralUniverse]

(even for a split second)

Ca'mon it can certainly be balanced and with trade-offs. The fact in vanilla it's forever lasting *IS* the harmful part.

[-XXX-]

(even for a split second)

Ca'mon it can certainly be balanced and with trade-offs. The fact in vanilla it's forever lasting *IS* the harmful part.

I doubt that. In any shape or form it'd represent a free out of jail card in hairy situations for the monk while denying any hopes of escape to any opposition.

Futhermore, is there really any reason for this other than the "I wanna play a monk, make them OP again" argument?

[AstralUniverse]

Futhermore, is there really any reason for this other than the "I wanna play a monk, make them OP again" argument?

News flash, Monk is a very competent class in this meta. Not op but certainly doesnt need buffs. (Not for me anyway)

[-XXX-]

I do not see how that counters my argument. The above statement supports it, actually.

[AstralUniverse]

I do not see how that counters my argument. The above statement supports it, actually.

Eh... okay.. so I'm not sure I can explain it to the level of clarity I wish, but I'll try.

Monk is like.. either very weak at something, or completely immune to it. (see will save, ab and damage, etc etc). Arelith changed it by adjusting the ab and damage to be more in line with other melee classes, while keeping most immunities, but without the movement.

I find it to be a binary and boring class for this reason, where as I didnt feel that way previously. I dont know. This has little to do with "Balance", just the multiple iterations of the class through the updates leading us to this class design. You can add or substract stats but it doesnt make the class more interesting at this point.

I'm not in favour of uncapped movement. I'm in favor of... some spice. maybe better scaling with weapons, maybe a cool interaction with Sprint in a way that doesnt break the game?

I just feel a bit sad when there's a complete Taboo against movement speed. Maybe it's for a good reason, and maybe it's just avoidance of worm-cans.

So your argument isnt wrong and if I supported it then I guess I did, but again, the real game breaking aspect about monk was the uncapped movementspeed when it's also undispellable, permanent and goes to beyond DM movement so you can shrug off aoe slows and encumberment, etc. There are many 'tiers' of movementspeed in between which can be explored eventually. I got a hunch that scaling monk's movement to a point where a walking monk and a stealthing pure rogue walk at the same speed, seems like a reasonable stop point for the movement.

[Watchful Glare]

I've played Monks. I'm alright with them not having instant max speed at all times, forever.

I think Monk is possibly the hardest class to balance in this game and has been ridiculous in the past, in this server, and the changes made to it help put it back in line with the rest of the classes. High saves, very high AC, epic dodge, through the roof APR, high AB, good damage, and permanent max attainable speed made it so you could fight anyone or anything and if things didn't go your way you flipped improved expertise and went on your way like the roadrunner, making it pretty consequence free. Not to mention you could win any battle of attrition, or chase anyone wanting to retreat.

It has come a long way since.

With that alone, in mind, seems like any new class or any existing class has to be adjusted with thinking "How will this interact with Monk" and not just with their UBAB.