Subdual mode is mostly a waste of time

[Wings of Peace]

I'm aware of the reasoning behind subdual mode but in practice I mostly see people get back up and lens away or resume fighting shortly after. Unless there's a plan to add debuffs or something I can't imagine a reason I'd keep using it besides avoiding friendly fire when I could alternatively just body the person and ask afterwards if they want a res for prisoner rp.

[Aradin]

I almost always stick to subdual and I agree that if its purpose is to facilitate RP happening post-battle, that purpose often gets subverted by characters doing things like Wings of Peace mentioned. That being said, there are already massive debuffs to getting subdued. To quote from the wiki:

"A character that falls 'subdued' remain unconscious for 60 seconds.
Upon regaining consciousness, revived characters the following penalties for 5 minutes:

- 100% Spell failure
- Dexterity: Drops to 6.
- Strength: A damage penalty is applied to drop the character's Strength damage to -2 (rather than dropping Strength to 6 to allow the character to still move.)
- A penalty is applied to Dodge AC of -20.
- Attack bonus reduction of -20 to -40. The range of the malus is dependant on any secondary positive increases to the character's AB.
Note: The character sheet will not reflect this but it is there and it will be reflected in the combat log."

The only thing I might personally add to this were I making all the dev decisions is a movement speed debuff. If you just got beaten into unconsciousness, you're probably not going to be sprinting around for a while. Having low Strength stops some characters from moving quickly, but not all.

(Also: there's also a way to prevent your subdued opponent from doing anything by using a lasso. If you don't like people getting back up after getting subdued, carry a lasso on you and use it. Not feasible in group PvP for sure, but good for smaller-scale engagements.)

With all that said there are many character archetypes who would reasonably rise up and fight again even after being subdued. That's Captain America's signature strategy! And given that we live in a fantasy world and people want to play heroes, I'm not surprised that people try to heroically continue the fight even after being subdued because that's what heroes do. (forgive me, I just rewatched Thor: Ragnarok)
If a character starts fighting again after being subdued, they're roleplaying tenacity and a stubborn nature. If they beg for mercy, they're roleplaying a more pitiful or beaten down character. If they choose to -giveup or -unrelent, they're roleplaying someone weak or desperate. While I admit it seems cheesy to get subdued in a group PvP and simply get back over and over again, it's still a valid avenue of roleplay in my opinion - so long as they actually roleplay it appropriately. And by that I mean adhering to this quote from the subdual entry on the Arelith wiki:
"Being defeated and reduced to subdual should be roleplayed appropriately. In the event that the character was barely spared from being alive, it is respectful for the defeated player to act with grievous injuries and difficulty rising, speaking, or retorting against their attackers."

If someone is blatantly ignoring that, then you could send them a friendly -tell reminding them that being subdued has to be roleplayed as having consequences. Worse comes to worse it sounds like a matter for a couple screenshots and for a DM to look into to chat with the player and help them understand the expectations on getting subdued.

[Morgy]

I'm aware of the reasoning behind subdual mode but in practice I mostly see people get back up and lens away or resume fighting shortly after. Unless there's a plan to add debuffs or something I can't imagine a reason I'd keep using it besides avoiding friendly fire when I could alternatively just body the person and ask afterwards if they want a res for prisoner rp.

Death becomes even cheaper when you use it to just casually resurrect for prisoner RP. If someone walks off after subdualing to escape, they are not committing to prisoner RP. If you want to res someone to do prisoner RP, you also need their consent.

Either way, if you don’t get someone’s willingness to continue RPing, then it’s not going to work. If they want to engage, they will go along with the story.

Subdual is a great option that allows you to KO your opponent without beating them to death. It’s perfect for guard RP, slave capture/subjugation and all manner of other non-fatal interactions.

[Wings of Peace]

I'm aware of the reasoning behind subdual mode but in practice I mostly see people get back up and lens away or resume fighting shortly after. Unless there's a plan to add debuffs or something I can't imagine a reason I'd keep using it besides avoiding friendly fire when I could alternatively just body the person and ask afterwards if they want a res for prisoner rp.

Death becomes even cheaper when you use it to just casually resurrect for prisoner RP. If someone walks off after subdualing to escape, they are not committing to prisoner RP. If you want to res someone to do prisoner RP, you also need their consent.

Either way, if you don’t get someone’s willingness to continue RPing, then it’s not going to work. If they want to engage, they will go along with the story.

Subdual is a great option that allows you to KO your opponent without beating them to death. It’s perfect for guard RP, slave capture/subjugation and all manner of other non-fatal interactions.

All of these interactions you've listed run into the same pitfalls I listed in my original post. The advantage of consent+res is that it indicates an interest on the part of the other player at least whereas when you use -subdual you are making an assumption they'll play along.

[DeepWebAssassin]

Saying there’s no reason to use it is a bit strange to me, and if you are considering things in only a “what is most advantageous to me” capacity, then sure. Killing people is the way to go.

Sorry to state the obvious but I feel like people have gotten a lot of use out of it in situations where a character wants to beat someone but not necessarily cut their head off in public. Just because you raise them later doesn’t mean you didn’t just kill them, and that’s an act that characters SHOULD be giving weight to.

I feel like most of the time just beating someone gets the point across. If you’re that worried about forcing them to lick their wounds after (or if you’re engaging in a team fight and need them to stay out of it for good), maybe just make the choice to kill them. I thought that was the point of this whole system.

What I don’t want is for them to be forced to move super slowly, because then it further incentivizes people to “capture” someone by killing them, picking the body up, fleeing the area, and raising them back in the safety of a faction base. That’s not engaging or fun for the captive most times. Especially when PvP is often sudden and one sided. I’d rather be able to walk my prisoner somewhere at normal move speed. Maybe something cool happens along the way or they at least get to RP instead of waiting in the death area for some unknown amount of time, stewing but feeling pressured to accept the raise so they don’t seem mad. I wouldn’t hate some of the other proposed suggestions (though I think the penalties are a bit high). Mainly to stop them from heal potting back to full and popping a timestop to try and secure a quick cheapshot kill. But also maybe the solution to that is just remembering what kind of characters do that and killing them as a first option from there on out.

[Wings of Peace]

Saying there’s no reason to use it is a bit strange to me, and if you are considering things in only a “what is most advantageous to me” capacity, then sure. Killing people is the way to go.

Sorry to state the obvious but I feel like people have gotten a lot of use out of it in situations where a character wants to beat someone but not necessarily cut their head off in public. Just because you raise them later doesn’t mean you didn’t just kill them, and that’s an act that characters SHOULD be giving weight to.

I feel like most of the time just beating someone gets the point across. If you’re that worried about forcing them to lick their wounds after (or if you’re engaging in a team fight and need them to stay out of it for good), maybe just make the choice to kill them. I thought that was the point of this whole system.

What I don’t want is for them to be forced to move super slowly, because then it further incentivizes people to “capture” someone by killing them, picking the body up, fleeing the area, and raising them back in the safety of a faction base. That’s not engaging or fun for the captive most times. Especially when PvP is often sudden and one sided. I’d rather be able to walk my prisoner somewhere at normal move speed. Maybe something cool happens along the way or they at least get to RP instead of waiting in the death area for some unknown amount of time, stewing but feeling pressured to accept the raise so they don’t seem mad. I wouldn’t hate some of the other proposed suggestions (though I think the penalties are a bit high). Mainly to stop them from heal potting back to full and popping a timestop to try and secure a quick cheapshot kill. But also maybe the solution to that is just remembering what kind of characters do that and killing them as a first option from there on out.

If you'd read the original post you'd notice that it largely regarded the issue of many players just lensing or fighting again post-subdual as opposed to wound licking or anything pertaining to that. Res+Consent has less of this problem because the other player's openness to the situation is already implied.

[DM Monkey]

Subdual is another RP tool at your disposal. It should be used, like standard PvP, when the story suits it. The goal is always RP for both of these. None of what you've listed is ever really an issue for someone that accepts they're not always going to 'win by killing' in every engagement. So your enemy gets away! Oh no!

Is someone who portals out instantly likely to be fun to RP with? Maybe they don't want to be involved. Maybe they know they need to log out pretty soon. Maybe they've misunderstood the situation. Maybe their character is a coward. You can absolutely let situations like this develop into more of a story. If the goal is just to corner a player for a bit longer, then maybe the tool isn't being used properly.

Focus on the RP, and these tools we have to assist RP work better.

[Bunnysmack]

I would like it if subdual also applied something similar to the polymorph effect where you can't use any items except potions. This will stop people using SOME of the consumable means of stripping off subdual to keep swinging (but not all).

If not that, maybe add on a -80 skill debuff to lore and use magic magic device, as a lesser stop gap.

[AstralUniverse]

I'm aware of the reasoning behind subdual mode but in practice I mostly see people get back up and lens away or resume fighting shortly after. Unless there's a plan to add debuffs or something I can't imagine a reason I'd keep using it besides avoiding friendly fire when I could alternatively just body the person and ask afterwards if they want a res for prisoner rp.

I was involved in a pvp where I was drastically stronger (in levels and gear) than the enemies, and I knew it, and I didnt want to just KB them and flex my level on them, so I used subdual mode. It made me feel less bad about winning the fight lol.

In another occasion, I was ganked and killed, and had to sit in the Death screen for 15 minutes while RP was going on with my corpse, and I was waiting for a raise that was offered to me by Tell and I agreed. Would be more convenient if they used subdual just so I dont need to sit and wait alone.

Just two examples, out of the many many examples where subdual is very useful.

If people PVP in bad faith and just want to win, then subdual is really pointless to them, that's a fact I wont argue with, but it's not Subdual's fault.

[Definately Not A Mimic]

I know this wasn't the point of the thread but going to say it anyway..

I really wish -subdual was the defacto in pvp. If you want the person dead you can easily kill them after they're on the ground. If you're planning to ask them if you can raise for prisoner rp or whatever.. then why in the world would you kill them? Their god may not let them come back to life (if we are treating death as serious). I personally have a hard time accepting a raise for that after you kill me. You wanted me captured not dead, use subual.

(Obviously 'you' being whomever and just used to simplify trying to get the point out)

[AstralUniverse]

I really wish -subdual was the defacto in pvp. If you want the person dead you can easily kill them after they're on the ground. If you're planning to ask them if you can raise for prisoner rp or whatever.. then why in the world would you kill them? Their god may not let them come back to life (if we are treating death as serious). I personally have a hard time accepting a raise for that after you kill me. You wanted me captured not dead, use subual.

This is spot on! 100% agreed.

[Void]

I really wish -subdual was the defacto in pvp.

I honestly don't want this to happen.

Feels like forcing specific decision onto character to me. Not everybody plays good and not every character is forgiving one or has questions to ask.

Additionally -giveup command is a fiarly obscure one, and fight not resulting in death opens new ways to harass defeated characters.

[Arigard]

I don't think the OP is speaking on the issue of people RPing out of subdual and offering more to the scene, whether it's RPing trying to escape, or fight back etc - But more on what I've seen often which is a 100% wordless exit, ignoring all RP happening around them at the time and simply using subdual as a get out of jail free card - This is what frustrates and undermines the current implementation in my experience.

If people don't want to be RP captured, a simple PM to whoever has subdued then to say "Hey I'm not comfortable with taken prisoner" or "I don't have much time, I need to go etc" suffices to allow that player to then push the RP in a route that is an adequate ending for all - (i.e they simply leave you there beaten/broken to skulk away after some RP, or they pack you off as a warning etc etc) - But simply standing up wordlessly and then healing to full and lensing away/swinging once more doesn't provide any actual RP of the subdual at all, or anything for the player that's offered out that olive branch. It's bad RP to begin with - it feels cheesy as hell - and it happens a lot. It also doesn't exactly leave the player who chose to sub-dual feeling like their desire to generate more RP was reciprocated.

[Amateur Hour]

I'd also like to point out the existence of subdual mode has a side benefit that's nonetheless incredibly important: allowing casters to avoid actually killing people near them when magic goes wrong (e.g. harmful wild surges for wild mages, random passersby who happen to run into the field of vision of someone casting IGMS, etc). One of the first things I do on a new caster character is turn subdual mode for this reason.

Not everyone is going to take advantage of the opportunity for subdual RP. There's a lot of reasons why they might not, and a lot of them aren't coming from a place of pure selfishness. I think some of the frustration around this is going to come from the issue of differing opinions on OOC communication; there are some people who believe that "-notells" is the best way to play the game, and they're going to necessarily be at odds with people who like to double-check before engaging in intense antagonistic RP.

[Watchful Glare]

I would like it if subdual also applied something similar to the polymorph effect where you can't use any items except potions. This will stop people using SOME of the consumable means of stripping off subdual to keep swinging (but not all).

If not that, maybe add on a -80 skill debuff to lore and use magic magic device, as a lesser stop gap.

This is important. I was wondering about this. Is there, at the moment, something to prevent the instant cast of timestop through UMD book, and then healing/lensing out?

I don't think the OP is speaking on the issue of people RPing out of subdual and offering more to the scene, whether it's RPing trying to escape, or fight back etc - But more on what I've seen often which is a 100% wordless exit, ignoring all RP happening around them at the time and simply using subdual as a get out of jail free card - This is what frustrates and undermines the current implementation in my experience.

If people don't want to be RP captured, a simple PM to whoever has subdued then to say "Hey I'm not comfortable with taken prisoner" or "I don't have much time, I need to go etc" suffices to allow that player to then push the RP in a route that is an adequate ending for all - (i.e they simply leave you there beaten/broken to skulk away after some RP, or they pack you off as a warning etc etc) - But simply standing up wordlessly and then healing to full and lensing away/swinging once more doesn't provide any actual RP of the subdual at all, or anything for the player that's offered out that olive branch. It's bad RP to begin with - it feels cheesy as hell - and it happens a lot. It also doesn't exactly leave the player who chose to sub-dual feeling like their desire to generate more RP was reciprocated.

This is also a concern. It takes a few bad apples doing this to you, and then you wonder. Or people RPing like they're going to go ahead with the capture and then lensing out. It's an issue with culture. Playing devil's advocate here, killing should be heavier on the consequence side but it also removes the possibility of someone doing any of what was mentioned before, and generally you can take the body to wherever they were going to go immediately if they consent to it skipping what may ocassionally be a half an hour walk.

This may also be waived if the person is alright with it and chooses to teleport to the scene to shorten travel time. Then again it has also happened to me where instead of the expected result they just TP away. I've experienced it both ways.

That said, it's rare when it happens.

[Griefmaker]

As many have said, Subdual is gold and possibly one of the best things to happen in regards to Arelith PvP ever. Finally you can simply beat up someone and knock them out instead of going full on murder hobo over a small slight!

As has been mentioned, I wish subdual was default. If you want to "accidentally" kill someone in a fight, it can be turned off before hand with that in mind. If you want to purposefully kill someone in a fight or after they have been beaten, same thing.

I do get the point about people who are subdued just running off or fighting after they are beaten. But this is sort of one of those scenarios that if the player wishes to do that, report it to the DMs (who will hopefully delete the offending character to discourage lameness like that) and otherwise take the win ICly for what it is! Just because another character is beaten does not mean the winner has the right to force RP.

Overall though, huzzah for subdual!

[Watchful Glare]

To clarify: I think subdual is a good thing. Having a non-lethal option is good. Regardless of the eventual bad apple abusing it.

[Wings of Peace]

As many have said, Subdual is gold and possibly one of the best things to happen in regards to Arelith PvP ever. Finally you can simply beat up someone and knock them out instead of going full on murder hobo over a small slight!

As has been mentioned, I wish subdual was default. If you want to "accidentally" kill someone in a fight, it can be turned off before hand with that in mind. If you want to purposefully kill someone in a fight or after they have been beaten, same thing.

I do get the point about people who are subdued just running off or fighting after they are beaten. But this is sort of one of those scenarios that if the player wishes to do that, report it to the DMs (who will hopefully delete the offending character to discourage lameness like that) and otherwise take the win ICly for what it is! Just because another character is beaten does not mean the winner has the right to force RP.

Overall though, huzzah for subdual!

Watchful already did a good job summarizing my core issue so I'll skip over the parts that pertain to that and just point out that -subdual, especially if it is a default, is the definition of forced rp compared to the res+consent model. It's weird that people consider being a prisoner by default instead of by opt-in to not be forced rp somehow even though that is literally the function of the mechanic.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

As many have said, Subdual is gold and possibly one of the best things to happen in regards to Arelith PvP ever. Finally you can simply beat up someone and knock them out instead of going full on murder hobo over a small slight!

As has been mentioned, I wish subdual was default. If you want to "accidentally" kill someone in a fight, it can be turned off before hand with that in mind. If you want to purposefully kill someone in a fight or after they have been beaten, same thing.

I do get the point about people who are subdued just running off or fighting after they are beaten. But this is sort of one of those scenarios that if the player wishes to do that, report it to the DMs (who will hopefully delete the offending character to discourage lameness like that) and otherwise take the win ICly for what it is! Just because another character is beaten does not mean the winner has the right to force RP.

Overall though, huzzah for subdual!

Watchful already did a good job summarizing my core issue so I'll skip over the parts that pertain to that and just point out that -subdual, especially if it is a default, is the definition of forced rp compared to the res+consent model. It's weird that people consider being a prisoner by default instead of by opt-in to not be forced rp somehow even though that is literally the function of the mechanic.

I don't get people's perceptions. You have to opt in and consent to being subdued - all you have to do to not participate is use the giveup command. Getting back up off the floor means you're consenting to continue the scene. Also, if you're willing to consent to being subdued but don't want to consent to being tied up like a hog, you can unrelent.

There is no point at which you haven't consented to subdue RP - if you don't consent, you can immediately go to the fugue.

I get it- a lot of people don't like the shotgun pvp meta. I'm not a huge fan, myself. But it sounds to me like people are so stuck on their perceptions of being forced to do something they don't like, that they aren't seeing the option for someone who isn't actually interested in leaving a pile of corpses behind giving them a chance for further RP.

When your character loses a fight, you didn't lose the fight, your character did. Whether because of the other player's superior skill, or their level. A person who subdues you isn't just trying to be a jerk, sometimes they're actually trying to spare you the death penalties (usually because their character probably isn't a murder-hobo and doesn't necessarily see the reason you fought over worth ending a life), and playing along with them isn't that hard- your character is too stubborn to give up as long as they're still 'able' to fight? No sweat- RP being unconscious and let them carry your body around, so they can throw you into a different zone rather than the fugue.

Any RP you experience while subdued is something you've opted into in the hopes of not getting death penalties - if you aren't cooperating with the person who gave you that out, you can't be upset if you wind up in the fugue. That's basically saying the person who beat you is bad if they do and bad if they don't- and that sounds like an unhealthy attachment to winning that leaves no room for you to enjoy a loss no matter the circumstances.

You're never going to have fun, win or lose, if you're always looking for the other player to be the big bad boogey man.

[Void]

I don't get people's perceptions. You have to opt in and consent to being subdued

Not quite. You don't have a choice regarding being subdued or not. You have an option to suicide with -giveup, and then you have to be aware of such command existing, or that it works only while you're down.

There is no point at which you haven't consented to subdue RP

Consent means being asked explicitly. You can be subdued without being asked, regardless of whether you want it or not. The other side simply needs to meet requirements for PVP and that doesn't amount to much. If the subdued person stood up without -giveup, you did not receive any consent from them, unless they explicitly said "yes".

Meanwhile being killed REQUIRES the other side to explicitly ask your permission to conitnue. And if you refuse to continue, you'll respawn VERY far away from your opponent, in a safe area.

So you're in more control when you're dead compared to when you're subdued.

---

Wings on peace summarized it correctly. Subdual is closer to forced RP than death. And it is puzzling when people think it is a better option.

There's a big difference between "you need to opt in to continue" and "you need to opt out to NOT continue, and you should be aware that you can opt out and what you need to do for that". You get more control in the situation #1, and that is your character dying in pvp. You get less control in situation #2, which is subdual, because you have to be aware of a very obscure command, and nobody asks your opinion directly.

[The GrumpyCat]

So if we add some yellow text that appears on subdual saying something akin to 'To die rather than be subdued, and pass on to the fugue, please type -giveup'

At that point I don't see the difference?

Further more what about the choices of the PvPer?

it's all very well saying 'I didn't choose to be subdued!' but you've an option that can kill your pc immedatly.

Before subdue, guards and the like had to deal with shrieks of 'police brutality! ur a bad person because u murdered that pickpocket!' or what have you - simply because there wasn't much of a way to respond to pvp or any action with physical violence that didn't inevitably end in murder. That's not really fair on them is it? What about /their/ consent?

Now there is.

Also - and this may be me being overly optemistic, but I'd gather that a fair few (if not most) of the people who don't take subdual seriously, also don't take death that seriously either. Which doesn't mean I'm not in favour of putting on a few more maleas on it if neccesary, but like - if someone is willing to get up without any rp and zoom away from you after a beat down, I doubt they'd give you that much fun death rp either.

[Void]

So if we add some yellow text that appears on subdual saying something akin to 'To die rather than be subdued, and pass on to the fugue, please type -giveup'

That would be a better design than the curernt one.

Before subdue, guards and the like had to deal with shrieks of 'police brutality! ur a bad person because u murdered that pickpocket!' or what have you - simply because there wasn't much of a way to respond to pvp or any action with physical violence that didn't inevitably end in murder. That's not really fair on them is it? What about /their/ consent?

There were several iterations of subdual. In the previous one you needed specific weapons for subdual to work, and you'd need dirty fighting feat OR you' be dealing with penalty to attack. And that was, in my opinion reasonable.

Because in real life you cannot shoot someone non-lethally with a point blank shotgun shot in the head, non-lethally blow them up with a few kilos of C4, or non-lethally saw them in a half with a chainsaw. All of this can be done now in the game.

Regarding people teleporting away at first opportunity in order to stay, people need some sort of guarantee that something fun is going to happen if they stay. Meanwhile in case of hostilities, if you're thinking for too long, the other side can lock teleportation and then you can be stuck with them for real.

[The GrumpyCat]

Because in real life you cannot shoot someone non-lethally with a point blank shotgun shot in the head, non-lethally blow them up with a few kilos of C4, or non-lethally saw them in a half with a chainsaw. All of this can be done now in the game.

True but in real life when you're dead you're kinda... dead. And whilst we don't want to implement any sort of permadeath system, we do kinda want people to treat death with some sort of seriousness- especially in PvP.
A subdual system means there's a choice -beyond- killing someone, beyond dying. It means the option to kill someone is just that. You KILLED them. That gives weight to it. And also, when you know you could have been subdued, it can give weight to that also. You weren't 'knocked unconcious' you were MURDERED. Sure you were raised after. But that person could have knocked you over, bopped you on the head, winded you - no they stright up KILLED you. That should mean something.

[Definately Not A Mimic]

Just because you are subdued doesn't mean you're agreeing to prisoner rp or slavery or even random rp. You still have the option of sending your character to the wall if you don't want any rp after the fight.
My point though is, death should mean something so therefore you shouldn't kill the guy you want to capture.

[Wings of Peace]

So if we add some yellow text that appears on subdual saying something akin to 'To die rather than be subdued, and pass on to the fugue, please type -giveup'

At that point I don't see the difference?

Further more what about the choices of the PvPer?

it's all very well saying 'I didn't choose to be subdued!' but you've an option that can kill your pc immedatly.

Before subdue, guards and the like had to deal with shrieks of 'police brutality! ur a bad person because u murdered that pickpocket!' or what have you - simply because there wasn't much of a way to respond to pvp or any action with physical violence that didn't inevitably end in murder. That's not really fair on them is it? What about /their/ consent?

Now there is.

Also - and this may be me being overly optemistic, but I'd gather that a fair few (if not most) of the people who don't take subdual seriously, also don't take death that seriously either. Which doesn't mean I'm not in favour of putting on a few more maleas on it if neccesary, but like - if someone is willing to get up without any rp and zoom away from you after a beat down, I doubt they'd give you that much fun death rp either.

That's not entirely how consent works as you've laid out the scenario but even if it was the answer would be that the mechanic still doesn't care because it's the victim who decides if the guard killed them or not. It's not like they're taking a suicide pill. If death by guard seems lighter going forward it would be because of the meta-knowledge the victim suicided.

Edit: I do think a yellow text alert would be a good idea for new players however.