Palemaster nerf - update of 08.01.2022

[Kamuizin]

After today's update i saw that Palemaster imm crit will be moved from level 10 to level 15.
In discord discussions was mentioned that this feature was added to stop the high number of fighters taking 10 lvls of Palemaster to achieve crit imm.
As i was planning a build with this class, i would like to suggest an alternative for balance. For each attribute bonus from hard ability points from the main attribute of the caster class that gave access to palemaster, you could reduce by 1 the needed level to reach crit immunity with Palemaster, even resulting into a worse penalty for negative modifiers, with the following result:

Intelligence or Charisma 8/9 (-1): Deathless mastery feat at palemaster level 16
Intelligence or Charisma 10/11 (0): Deathless mastery feat at palemaster level 15
Intelligence or Charisma 12/13 (+1): Deathless mastery feat at palemaster level 14
Intelligence or Charisma 14/15 (+2): Deathless mastery feat at palemaster level 13
Intelligence or Charisma 16/17 (+3): Deathless mastery feat at palemaster level 12
Intelligence or Charisma 18/19 (+4): Deathless mastery feat at palemaster level 11
Intelligence or Charisma 20/21 (+5) Deathless mastery feat at palemaster level 10

The Intelligence/Charisma benefit should not be retroactive. If you have hard Intelligence or Charisma 20 at palemaster level 10 you get the deathless mastery feat, if you have 19 you don't. If you progress in another class later and reach 20, you still don't get the feat and will need to raise palemaster level to 11. The commitment of the first attribute bonus at each 4 levels should be taken in account.

If a warrior build was commited enough to invest attribute points in charisma, they could surelly receive a better treatment than others. They're going for a hybrid build and hybrid builds (being a jack of all trades) are in itself behind other dedicated builds.

I see this as a minor fix for the balance more than a suggestion, but if taken as suggestion only i will understand if the message isn't taken into account, as the suggestion box board is closed at the moment.

Edit: Added reference to Intelligence as per @Nitro feedback, to encompass all arcane caster levels:

Why charisma?

[Nitro]

Why charisma?

[Ork]

Because someone went blackguard.

[Kamuizin]

Why charisma?

You are right. I was so focused in my own build that i forgot that main caster attribute could be intelligence or charisma.

This feature should be readed as the main caster attribute of the base class. If the palemaster started with a intelligence atribute caster class, then intelligence would apply, if the base caster class is charisma, then charisma would apply.

[Nitro]

You are right. I was so focused in my own build that i forgot that main caster attribute could be intelligence or charisma.

This feature should be readed as the main caster attribute of the base class. If the palemaster started with a intelligence atribute caster class, then intelligence would apply, if the base caster class is charisma, then charisma would apply.

This seems somewhat counterintuitive to the intent of the nerf. In the scenario you propose, caster PM's get the INT they need anyway as a matter of fact, and the only melee builds that would want to go PM would be divine classes that want CHA anyway, so they still get the crit immunity without any additional investment beyond a slightly higher CHA than the build might ordinarily have.

[Aren]

You are right. I was so focused in my own build that i forgot that main caster attribute could be intelligence or charisma.

This feature should be readed as the main caster attribute of the base class. If the palemaster started with a intelligence atribute caster class, then intelligence would apply, if the base caster class is charisma, then charisma would apply.

This seems somewhat counterintuitive to the intent of the nerf. In the scenario you propose, caster PM's get the INT they need anyway as a matter of fact, and the only melee builds that would want to go PM would be divine classes that want CHA anyway, so they still get the crit immunity without any additional investment beyond a slightly higher CHA than the build might ordinarily have.

Touches own nose with one finger, and points at you with other hand.

[Kamuizin]

You are right. I was so focused in my own build that i forgot that main caster attribute could be intelligence or charisma.

This feature should be readed as the main caster attribute of the base class. If the palemaster started with a intelligence atribute caster class, then intelligence would apply, if the base caster class is charisma, then charisma would apply.

This seems somewhat counterintuitive to the intent of the nerf. In the scenario you propose, caster PM's get the INT they need anyway as a matter of fact, and the only melee builds that would want to go PM would be divine classes that want CHA anyway, so they still get the crit immunity without any additional investment beyond a slightly higher CHA than the build might ordinarily have.

That may be true, and i will let it to be judged. But by putting all the hard points in charisma you may be giving up the chance to get some epic feats that have high physical attributes as requirements, like blinding speed, overwhelming critical, Mighty Rage, Thundering rage, Epic dodge among others.

[dominantdrowess]

Given the prevalence of the 2-handed crit-burst meta ... and the recent adjustment to divine spellcasters gaining bonuses against crit immune targets ... why is crit immunity being nerfed exactly when so many characters just gained extra tools for destroying these targets and means to bypass crit immunity?

[McPunchins]

Because it isn't just crit immunity, crit immunity gives immunity to sneak attacks also and Palemaster isn't a martial class it is a caster class. Most Caster PM builds already take 15 levels of PM anyway the only people this stops for the most part are the fighters abusing the crit immunity by taking 1 level of PM pre epic losing 1 ab overall for crit immunity. it's effectively a zero loss strategy for immunity to crits and sneak attacks effectively making them immune to one of the best ways to deal with high strength low AC opponents which is crippling strike. This class honestly should require you have like 10 levels in a caster class to take not a small bard dip.

Honestly I don't understand why this was ever removed from a PRC Token request either, PMs are not that common in the forgotten realms as far as I'm aware so they should be equally uncommon on Arelith. I'd argue shifters are probably more common than PMs given the number of lycanthropes and druids across the forgotten realms.

[Miskol]

As this is topic is explicitly noted as a suggestion for implementation, this topic will be locked as it violates the intent of the feedback forum. Please refer to the post by DM Titania for a difference between posts of feedback and suggestions: viewtopic.php?f=37&t=22721.