Spellswords

[AstralUniverse]

Any class can use Mords and Timestop, provided they either have UMD, Lore, or pick a 5% race like Aasimar (Greater actually, not major), Tiefling, Rakshasa, Imp, or even use the consumable gems for Mords.

First of all, Aasimar doesnt count as Outsider for that item you are talking about.
Second of all, the rest of them are major awards. Okay. That's not an argument I'm going to adress.
Third, UMD is a class tax, and 80 lore is a serious investment only few builds actually reach in reality.

Energy buffer is up on the breach list and any Spellsword who isnt trolling will just get it off you with a Mord. it doesnt counter the Spellsword's damage in any way. In fact, the spellsword can breach and use the elemental strike immediately after, to guarantee that you WILL eat saveless slow from cold imbue and a lot of damage you cannot be warded against with things on the breach list.

[Nintendo Entertainment System]

The stuff I like about the spellsword update:

• Making elemental strikes an active skill was a good move, making the gameplay more interesting and making SS easier to balance for both single weapon and dual weapon archetypes simultaneously.
• I like the magical whirlwind strike, very nice to have an added AoE ability.
• I like how all of the elemental strikes are always available, with specific elements empowered by what you've imbued your weapon with.
• A spellsword specific spell list makes it a lot easier to distinguish the class from wizard, keeping changes from one from spilling over to the other unintentionally.
• Having the class' defenses be vulnerable to breach is appropriate for a gish class. Abjuration should be a concern for a gish archetype, and the old spellsword was capable of sitting pretty behind EMA and ignoring breaches for the most part.

Stuff I'm ambivalent about:

• Conceptually, pure-class options being optimal is pretty cool. That said, I feel there's a lot less room for interesting multi-class options here. Even if you're going deep into, say, paladin, your choice of dip class affects your abilities (and maybe RP) in a significant way. I don't see many any compelling or interesting multiclass options, since everything is provided for in a complete package. The only differentiation between spellswords seem to be path and primary stat. There's variety, but there could be a lot more based on traditional DnD multi-classing.
• Having full caster levels and full APR and Discipline (and in the case of bladesong, 5 WM!) seems like having your cake and eating it too. Spellsword gets away from having to balance dip abilities with abjurative vulnerability, which distinguishes it from other spellcasting melee classes in a big way. While breaches are a minor concern to spellswords now, dispels can be largely ignored - which feels strange for a class all about arcane buffs and balancing magic and melee. This is especially true since a big part of SS' defensive toolkit - Imbue Armor - is likely beyond any kind of dispelling as an armor enhancement.
• The save-less Cold effect is really strong, possibly too strong, and will hit characters with fewer but bigger hits (all 2-handers, basically) pretty hard. Arguably shotgun builds needed the hit, but I feel that's already on the way with the hinted nerf to insta attacks like WW strike.
• The old SS had some abilities that used melee attacks to chink at saves and SR, with some potent vulnerability stacking via full Blackstaff debuffs. This created for some fun combinations involving weakening an enemy through melee before finishing that enemy off with spellcasting. I don't think there's as much room for that now, with blackstaff limited and nu-spellsword being unable to empower or maximize IGMS and other high circle attack spells.

All that said, the revamped class looks like fun and I look forward to trying it. Having leveled up a couple of spellswords to 30 back before writs became so generous, I'm curious to see how differently it plays.

[Watchful Glare]

Any class can use Mords and Timestop, provided they either have UMD, Lore, or pick a 5% race like Aasimar (Greater actually, not major), Tiefling, Rakshasa, Imp, or even use the consumable gems for Mords.

First of all, Aasimar doesnt count as Outsider for that item you are talking about.
Second of all, the rest of them are major awards. Okay. That's not an argument I'm going to adress.
Third, UMD is a class tax, and 80 lore is a serious investment only few builds actually reach in reality.

Energy buffer is up on the breach list and any Spellsword who isnt trolling will just get it off you with a Mord. it doesnt counter the Spellsword's damage in any way. In fact, the spellsword can breach and use the elemental strike immediately after, to guarantee that you WILL eat saveless slow from cold imbue and a lot of damage you cannot be warded against with things on the breach list.

If they get it off you cast it again. Unlike their Mords, Energy Buffer requires less than 30 Lore and it can be mass produded with ease. It's way more expensive for them to keep casting a Mords at you than it is for you to read another Energy Buffer scroll or use an Energy Buffer rod.

Much like Acid Bomb will slow you and Freedom of Movement is on the breach list. If it goes down and you don't put it up again that's on you. Same with Damage Resistance. It's the first thing to go. It's quite literally a spell that nullifies your enemy's damage, I don't see why you wouldn't use it.

You don't need UMD or 80 Lore to use Mords gems. And even if you were feeling particularly cheap, you can still use Greater Breach to the same effect, rod or scroll. Or even lesser breach wand.

And unlike other classes that have a stronger chassis, if you strip the wards from a Spellsword he's a guy with a fancy sword and maybe 35~40 AC tops, with maybe two-three worthwhile spell slots left after he's spent the rest in buffing himself.

I could run circle around a Spellsword kiting him with lesser breach bolts after drinking a true strike (Can kite again now) until he's normal-man-with-sword again, and then he either runs or I delete him. Or with a breach wand. I don't think they are overtuned. Yet. They are by far not the only class to have access to such things, and not in any game-breaking way either.

[a shrouded figure]

What is the AB?

Realistically hits 47-49, but elemental strike gives most builds an extra +4 for a hit.

Thanks for the numbers. I'm not sure how is that over the top then.

At the time of my post, it was possible to hit well over 60 AB in tensers.

[Tarkus the dog]

Realistically hits 47-49, but elemental strike gives most builds an extra +4 for a hit.

Thanks for the numbers. I'm not sure how is that over the top then.

At the time of my post, it was possible to hit well over 60 AB in tensers.

Fair enough. I had similar concerns at first, but it turned out to be a bug. Tensers now roughly gives you 5 AB or so, but I still don't recommend using it because it silences you and removes the elemental damage.

[Mattamue]

At the time of my post, it was possible to hit well over 60 AB in tensers.

What build has the base ab to be able to hit the +20 cap and get well over 60 ab?

Duergar str gift is 32 base str taking 3 great str so that's 48 str buffed for 19 ab. 15 from 1-20 and 5 from epics for 39. 4 from ewf and prowess for 43.
So that's 63 max with trade offs in con and int. If 18 int is possible with that spread, which off the top of the dome I'm not positive. Maybe with epic bonus feats for int, but then there's also a trade off on esf disc or something else. Giving up imbue, spellcasting, and ele strike damage is also giving up a lot.

63 isn't even where tensers would naturally rest. 5 from imbue, 1 from fire armor, 5 from tensers. So that's 54 walking around ab from a character that can't cast or do any ss stuff. Doesn't the polymorph no potions also apply?

Seems like you read an acid sheath and drink cure crit pots. Or just run away since they can't cold slow.

[Kaeldre]

If they get it off you cast it again. Unlike their Mords, Energy Buffer requires less than 30 Lore and it can be mass produded with ease. It's way more expensive for them to keep casting a Mords at you than it is for you to read another Energy Buffer scroll or use an Energy Buffer rod.

If you do that every other active ward on your person will be dispelled.

[Watchful Glare]

If they get it off you cast it again. Unlike their Mords, Energy Buffer requires less than 30 Lore and it can be mass produded with ease. It's way more expensive for them to keep casting a Mords at you than it is for you to read another Energy Buffer scroll or use an Energy Buffer rod.

If you do that every other active ward on your person will be dispelled.

If you use Energy Buffer on yourself every active ward on your person is dispelled?

[AstralUniverse]

If they get it off you cast it again. Unlike their Mords, Energy Buffer requires less than 30 Lore and it can be mass produded with ease. It's way more expensive for them to keep casting a Mords at you than it is for you to read another Energy Buffer scroll or use an Energy Buffer rod.

If you do that every other active ward on your person will be dispelled.

If you use Energy Buffer on yourself every active ward on your person is dispelled?

It's hard to take your comments seriously with questions like that.

What they mean is, that it takes 3 seconds to cast a hasted Mord at you, and it takes you 6 seconds to read a scroll so you will always come out with 0 or close to 0 buffs at then end if you play a breach war with a mage. I really mean no disrespect but you sound like you have no idea what you are talking about from the moment you said Energy buffer counters Elemental Strike.

[Choofed]

Hey hey everyone, I wanted to go post here to give my two cents on feedback for the recent spellsword changes.

Originally, I was highly apprehensive about the rework. The manner in which imbues worked provoked a certain amount of worry from me, and the loss of EMA was very spooky. However, now I sit rather comfortably after having had some time to sit down with the pool of build friends I have. I expect the class to be tuned, but I would say it's a bit more comfortably sat.

While I'm going to need to play around a little bit to give honest and hearty feedback from actually using it well, I do have one thing that I would request as a current change - and it's relatively minor I hope.

I used to use Belegarn's Horn as a bit of a signature move, and it's a really nice spell to have. I used to dislike using the potions, and having a reliable knockdown for some people was a bit of CC that really worked when acting independently. Part of the class fantasy in my imagination was the idea of a spell sword weaving words and emitting a wave of force that would knock people over.

I appreciate it may not fit the new class' identity or balance for the development team, however.

After I've properly fiddled with it, maybe got 20 hours or the likes in, I'll come back here and give a part 2.

Thanks guys! I really appreciate the work being put in, and I think we're somewhat on brand with the class identity with the changes made.

[Watchful Glare]

If you do that every other active ward on your person will be dispelled.

If you use Energy Buffer on yourself every active ward on your person is dispelled?

It's hard to take your comments seriously with questions like that.

What they mean is, that it takes 3 seconds to cast a hasted Mord at you, and it takes you 6 seconds to read a scroll so you will always come out with 0 or close to 0 buffs at then end if you play a breach war with a mage. I really mean no disrespect but you sound like you have no idea what you are talking about from the moment you said Energy buffer counters Elemental Strike.

I think we've had vastly different PvP experiences, or perhaps, situations where people don't put distance or use the instant cast afforded by a rod or wand and the break line of sight rather than remain still after that. I've no doubt it would be such if you were to stand right next to them and do it then. Or use an item and then click attack on them and have your character stare into them aggressively while waiting for the round to end.

If you'd like to, we could have a few bouts on the PGCC. It can be that I'm wrong and you are right.

[AstralUniverse]

Do I need to demonstrate to you how it is possible to just hit you with the elemental strike a split second after the breach because it is an instant action? I was certainly not pvping with many people who spammed energy buffer scrolls against my spellsword when i breached them. That's basically like wasting 6 seconds to apply some 60 temp hp. I dont see why anyone would do that.

[Ork]

Arguing what-if scenarios are really pointless. Energy buffer is a nice counter and it's on the breach list so it isn't insurmountable.

I will ask what is your point exactly Watchful?

[Watchful Glare]

Arguing what-if scenarios are really pointless. Energy buffer is a nice counter and it's on the breach list so it isn't insurmountable.

I will ask what is your point exactly Watchful?

The bolded part is my point.

At the moment, I do not think it is overtuned. Cold imbue may need some further testing.

As for you Astral, I do welcome such insights. As I've said it's entirely possible I've been going wrong about it this whole time, perhaps I just lack the experience. So if you'd like to demonstrate how it is game breaking or overtuned, I'm more than open to being proved wrong. It's the only way to learn sometimes.

[Hazard]

Fight, fight, fight, fight!

in the pgcc

[AstralUniverse]

As for you Astral, I do welcome such insights. As I've said it's entirely possible I've been going wrong about it this whole time, perhaps I just lack the experience. So if you'd like to demonstrate how it is game breaking or overtuned, I'm more than open to being proved wrong. It's the only way to learn sometimes.

Sure mate. I'm still unboxing in my new place and I can play maybe 1-2 hours a day at most, but I think it would be fun to do some tests together. As I said, I'm not shouting for nerfs just yet, but I will be happy to show you how your idea for a counter just falls flat at every attempt once I have some time to make a 30 spellsword, dex based Abjurant path on PGCC. I have a *strong feeling* the damage output is a bit too high for a dexer with that AC benchmark and this spellbook.