Sail Skill

[The Rambling Midget]

As for discouraging high sail? Given the reactions I have seen from players with high sail characters who run them so their crews do not get slapped around by the flagships day in and day out, yeah, I think it is pretty real.

The flagships would be subject to the same changes, but those also should be scary for pirates. That's the whole point of their existence. Their power could be tempered in its own way, through more difficult crew requirements, leaving them less able to respond to small, agile pirate crews in a timely manner.

As for the reactions I've seen in this thread, they're no different from the kneejerk complaints we see any time a potentially difficult change is hinted at. I trust ActionReplay to monitor and balance the changes in a way that opens up more content without punishing heavy investors.

[FallenDabus]

As for discouraging high sail? Given the reactions I have seen from players with high sail characters who run them so their crews do not get slapped around by the flagships day in and day out, yeah, I think it is pretty real.

The flagships would be subject to the same changes, but those also should be scary for pirates. That's the whole point of their existence. Their power could be tempered in its own way, through more difficult crew requirements, leaving them less able to respond to small, agile pirate crews in a timely manner.

As for the reactions I've seen in this thread, they're no different from the kneejerk complaints we see any time a potentially difficult change is hinted at. I trust ActionReplay to monitor and balance the changes in a way that opens up more content without punishing heavy investors.

Yeah, to be fair, I feel I developed a pretty good sense of how it would impact the system.

Over the summer I redesigned and rebalanced the system based on the priorities and goals AR set for it. Was my small contribution and gesture of gratitude to him for all the incredible work he has done and continuous to do with sailing content.

Part of the process was to put together a naval combat simulator, as this stuff is so difficult to iterate and quickly test in-game. So I actually have an excel file that allows us to put in all the variables (which ships are fighting, which weapons they use, ammo type, crew skill, to sail state, distance between ships, to weather conditions, day/night, if hiding, if it is 1v1 or 1v2) in order to quickly simulate dozens of ship encounters.

So when I say it is going to break things with flagships, I actually mean it is going to break things with flagships. I know how scary they currently are, as I did all their current stats (save for the new Ironhelm, which btw is overpowered as crew 5) and know how difficult it is to take them on as is.

At the moment, unless a redesign and expansion of the system takes place, there is no way I could make a meaningful 60 cap work well. Not without either introducing sail caps to ships based on their power (like gimping the Dreadnought at 60 sail and Flagships at 70 sail) or making these powerful ships significantly weaker.

Unlike NWN PvE and PvP, the options to adjust balance are incredibly limited with ships due to the simplicity of the system.

I really think a diminishing returns based on sail score difference would be great (see my previous post) because one thing the system does very poorly is deal with massive difference between sail scores at the moment. Being able to sink a flagship in under 2min due to a massive sail difference is just dumb. Being able to do so while hidden is even dumber. I completely agree on that.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

I really tried to understand this thread and read all of it, but there are a few things that I feel are being posed as questions that are easily answered.

-Want to be the best sailor and kill all da foes? I mean, the way to do that has been laid out quite thoroughly in this thread. Just gotta put in the work to get a likeminded crew together and bam, good to go.

-Want to get involved in the sea content but not worry about setting up sail? There are enough crews now from all sides of the island where this should be easy. If they have enough sailors in their crew, your presence does nothing to the average sail score (as has been laid out in this thread a few times) even if your score is a -1 because wisdom is a bothersome stat for even paladins these days.

-Want a good story? Well, either choice above can lead to a damn good story. Or it can just be going through the motions ic after a lot of ooc coordination. Similar to every other facet of Arelith.

-Sailors are meme builds! No, your pvp build is a meme build. So thwpt. All jokes aside though, a ship gets sunk and it's a thing. You lose to pvp, get corpse based, come back tomorrow and get your revenge after the 24 hours period is up and its an endless cycle of nonsense. I know which situation seems like more of a meme to me, but I suppose we all have a right to our opinions. But yeah, sailing is the best form of pvp in my little corner, because its the purest form of it this server has. You lose your ship in battle, and you can't help but deal with the consequences. You loose in land pvp, you can still go back to bragging about how your level 30 gank squad has smashed all the up and coming warlocks like nothing ever happened a few hours later.

-My really old character feels left behind! I mean, do I really have to tell you what the right advice is here, or do you know it already and just don't want to admit it to yourself?



Is the sailing system perfect as is? Nah, but you got good people involved with feeding AR with constant updates on how it plays out and his dedication to making it as good as it can be making it arelith's best feature even in it's still evolving state. And honestly the second point above is really really key. You don't have to invest in sail to get involved in the content. You just gotta roleplay with sailors.

[Eyeliner]

I really feel making it stat agnostic would go a long way. Lower the caps a bit and remove any benefit from wisdom so any class who invests skill points, feats and gear can max out sail. This would remove the issue of clerics and druids being the best sailors even though the archetypical sailor, pirate, etc classes would be swashbucklers, fighters, rogues and so on.

Wisdom makes sense, I get it, the Old Man and The Sea and wise old ship captains and all that but you could make just as strong a case for basing it on strength and dexterity to rig and guide the sails or intelligence to read maps and stars and instruments. So maybe it shouldn't be based on any one attribute, or any at all?

[Sombricimos]

We'd benefit from having an input from either the team or Irongron himself, to avoid talking in circles as someone mentionned.

Pretty please?

[Tikin]

If you are engaged in pvp with another ship, and you strike a killing blow, you don't actually sink them right away, you put them in a disabled state.

While in the disabled state you can board freely.

To actually sink them you then need to fire again to confirm.

So yes, ship pvp works by Subdual as a default, with a coup de grace required to actually sink your opponent.

Ahoy!
Thanks a lot for that information, I never noticed this mechanic, this is much appreciated!

[Wethrinea]

I have done a lot of sailing on a relatively small (but fast) ship where the average sail has been in the mid forties. Never have I felt gated away from sailing content, and we have had a ton of fun.

It is about managing your expectations. 40-50 sail is extremely easy to achieve, and enough to let you access most anything except fighting high tier galleons. Sure, the Gith Gank Squads in the Edgewaters will give you challenge as you will sometimes fail the check to avoid them. And your options in PvP range from capitulation to trying to run away.

And that is fine.

If you want to participate in high-end sail PvE or PvP and you are not built for it? Hitch a ride with a crew that is. Unlike land-based PvP, you will actually be able to contribute. Either by firing weapons or wiping the deck with you superior land-PvP-meta-build when those meme-sailors board or get boarded.

If you just want to sail and explore the seas with your other non-sailing-optimized friends, then that is very doable too. Just be aware that you won't win against dedicated crews.

One of my most enjoyable moments at sea was when we got attacked by some (I believe) underdarker ship and we barely made it back to safe waters with 15% hull strength left. It was an intense chase, and great fun. Running away is a viable, and often fun option at sea. Unlike on land.

The sailing system is unique to Arelith, and in my opinion the -least- gated endgame content, because you don't actually need high sailing skill to be a meaningful participant. You just need to find a good crew. And that is not difficult at all if you make an effort.

[-XXX-]

OK, here's what I feel is the current issue with Sailing:

Any character regardless of build can take 33 ranks in the sail skill and make a full set with +2 sail +1 WIS enchantment. This puts them at sail 60 if they have 8 WIS.
So technically, any character can crew the Penny Rose (which has a crew 1 requirement) and sail pretty much anywhere as the highest DC of events I've seen is 62 (we're talking Storms, Gales and boarding parties in the farthest, most dangerous squares of the map).
This is great, because for as long as you regard sailing as purely a means of transportation, 60 sail is enough.

However, to participate in ship vs ship PvP and the top tier sailing PvE content, you need sail 90+. That means this content is currently being gatekept behind having a bard on board and having the ability to reach 70 sail, which means:
a) 33 sail ranks, full sail gear and taking ESF:Sail (or loremaster exploration perk or any other way to bridge those 10 ranks)
b) 33 sail ranks, full sail gear and having a WIS based character (if the argument is for heavy build investment, then why should clercs and druids be able to go "YARR matey" with minimal investment if nobody else can?)


You might afford having maybe one 60 sail character help crewing a bigger ship if you have a heavy sail build on board to make up for the "loss", but in essence it's those 10 skill ranks that draw a line between who can and who cannot meaningfully contribute to sailing with regards to its top content.

This is unique in the sense that you can take a lvl 3 character, give them a gonne and a darkness wand and they will be able to meaningfully contribute in the party's efforts even in high lvl PvE or even PvP, but sailing doesn't have that:
"We're going to chase the undead galleon, what are you? Sail 60? Err... OK, sure come aboard but we'll need another one as you don't really count"


There's a little bit of confusion in this thread. Let me quote Zaphiel to somewhat outline what this confusion's all about:

I need to take Weapon Focus, Expertise, Blind Fight, Armor Skin, Epic Skill Focus: Discipline and many more. How this is different than what you just said: "The bonuses from having scores that are only achievable by sail focused characters are so massive that they make participation impossible for anyone who didn't plan to be a dedicated sailor at character creation." Without I am investing to these, I cannot compete with them.

The idea here is to allow characters with minimal sail investment to be able to meaningfully participate in naval combat and top tier sailing PvE content. That doesn't mean the same as being hyper cometitive.
And yeah, it's prefectly possible to win a regular PvP fight vs an optimal build with a suboptimal character.
It's impossible to ~survive~ a naval engagement vs a much higher sail skill crew.

[Zaphiel]

...

You are missing a point here. Literally every people invests in at least 11 feats to do top-end land PvE tier. And only few builds who pushes 60+AC before expertise generally able to solo, rest of these builds requires co-operation with other players. 33 sail skill is not investment. We got every classes' skill points increased for some reason. But, yeah, you probably choosed to use these increased skill points to dump into another skill that is necessary for land PvP (and PvE too, I guess) There is no confusion going on here. Some people wants to able to "participate" in sea content without gimping their awesome land PvP (and PvE too, I guess x 2) build. And literally it is pointed out that you can reach to 60 sail without any serious investment by Thomicus. Then you need to hire a bard to push your sail skill +16-20 further. Which means co-operation with other players. And I think problem lies in people thinks sailing is just a mini-game as how you think while it isn't. There are also some people said that how even a person with 0 sail skill can contribute. Generally what I understand from your posts is you don't want to co-operate with sail crews. You want to able to do all these stuff without being specialist because you want to be totally optimized on land. Sorry, but I am totally against the idea of a people being able to do all things and perhaps you should drop your precious Epic Weapon Focus or Epic Spell Focus for sake of sailing? You spend your entire bonus feats / ability scores to be optimal in land, they spend their classes / feats to be optimal in sea. They are king while in seas, you are king in the land. If you want to win against them, use land. (Last sentence goes for PvP.)

Also just wanted to point out that I haven't done any sailing beside local water sailing and I cannot comment on the numbers etc. between ship battles. I am not against the changes that rewards high sailing crews. What I am trying to say is "Specialists should be a thing" and I do not want to see the argument of "You need X wisdom score, X feats to be participant in the PvP content (or PvE) which is highly barring and only gates stuff behind high sail character" while having at least 11 feats spend on to increase your AB/AC/Spell DC or whatever to being able to do PvP / top-tier PvE in land which is ironic.

[BattleDrake]

I feel like there's a whole lot of misinformation and incorrect assumptions from people that don't do a whole lot of sailing.

I am a player that does a lot of sailing. I have a high sail skill. I sail on crews with a high sail skill. I sail on ships that require 3, as a solo. I sometimes sail with crews that have an averagely lower sail skill. I've been in sea pvp fights. I've done all the pve content.

Lets start with the main topic of this discussion, and that was wisdom. A wis based character could have the highest sail skill, but by a very little, and it certainly wouldn't guarantee a victory. A cleric/druid would have what? 8 or 9 more sail skill based on wis modifier than a non-wis based character. Divide that by 5 as you do, and that's a whopping 1-2 points of ab (and that's only if the entire crew was composed of the same cleric/druid). Certainly not a game changer. A slight advantage, and something we could argue about, but nothing that leads to sea superiority. If that was dropped, then so be it.

Now lets talk about the average skills stuff. This talk of people with little skill not contributing, and a level 3 with a gonne and darkness being helpful. No. Not at all. A level 3 with a gonne and darkness is gonna die in pve content, and cost thousands to keep them alive. A level 3 sailor with full skill investment, maybe the gift, maybe a little gear? Can help tremendously on a smaller ship. Sure, they wouldn't be helpful skill-wise in a full ship of level 30's with max gear, but they could easily contribute to smaller crews. My character constantly takes low levels, or even those with no invested skills out, because they can contribute (Not to mention all the great freebie xp they get). Brace yourselves for math folks. Take a ship requiring 3, one that I often solo. My sail skill without a bard song, max wis, or even a sail tunic, is 82. We divide that by 3, for about 27 sail skill. Good enough for shallow waters, I'd be a fool to take it into the outer quadrants, but I don't need to go out there. Divide that 27 by 5 for an ab of 5 (+8 with sails furled), and javelin ab bonus of 0-5. So long as I focus on Pirate/Cargo/Mercantile vessels, that gives me about a 50%+ chance to hit. Not great, not terrible, but certainly doable. Add a level 3, with 6 from investment, +6 from gift, give them a wisdom wand for +2/3, and a few pieces of gear for lets say a total of 20 sail skill. Suddenly, the ship is at 102 total skill, / 3 for 34. We divide that by 5 for about 7. A level 3 has just added +2 ab to the ship, a 10% increase in shooting things. That was with 1 level 3! Add another, that's another +2. Give them a few levels, and suddenly we can start taking on Prisoner, Privateer, and Longships without issue (Bring a carpenter).

Now lets talk about 60ish sail skill crews. These crews would only have issues, pve wise, with Amnians and Undead Galleons, as they should. They're not specialized crews. My character was made to sail so I push for higher numbers. You didn't make your character to be the greatest sailor? Don't expect to be doing what the greats are doing. Don't like that your 60 sail skill character isn't helping a 80+ focused crew? Create your own smaller crew where you contribute, or build a character that can participate, or just don't worry about it and be a Captain of these 90+ tanks, don't need sail skill to rp afterall. As for the pvp aspect to this? A 90 sail skill crew is going to win against your 60 sail crew in a 1 on 1, that's just what's expected. Run away. I've successfully gotten away from flagships multiple times on a 3 crewer as solo/duo sailors, it's doable. Bring a repairer, keep the sails to full, run towards main. Don't want to risk getting sunk? Surrender, white flag, take a loss. If they're still sinking you? Shame on them for bad sportsmanship, and maybe report, iunno. Also, just as a note, you don't need 90+ sail skill to take on Galleons and Amnians, could do it with 80ish or maybe even 70ish if you like getting frisky.

Now for pvp. As all that math before showed you, everything has to be divided. Divided by the number of crew, divided by 5. 90+ vs 80+ isn't that big of an advantage. There's still rng to consider, and if you'd sailed at all, you know it can be heavily on your side, or completely against you. A +1/2 ab isn't a game winner. You want to pvp? Expect to build crews to be the best at it. The way to do that on the sea? Super high skill sail, someone to repair, someone to know how ship/sail mechanics works, and to know what you're fighting against. I think the sailing system is great as it is (With the possibility of improvement in other areas, of course). Those that specialize in it have a clear advantage as they should. Those that don't, can still get enjoyment out of it, so long as they aren't expecting to do everything those that built to do it are doing.

My final point, running out of breath here. Bards. I do agree that to get all these top numbers demands a bard playing a good ol' sea shanty, which I mean, who doesn't believe all the sea shanties on AC: Black Flag are a necessity, amirite? But this has certainly led to a demand of bards in order to compete. Not even a sailor bard, just someone that knows a sea shanty to boost all the tops to max soft cap. Maybe something can be changed here, I don't really like the reliance on a single class in order to be the best, but it'd likely require a great deal of rebalancing on all the numbers if it was changed.

[pewpewx]

That's really surprising me that people want to achieve highest possible reward within the area (like being capable of fighting most competitive crews) without investment and "casualize" sailing.

You are still able to reach most of areas just having gear and skill investment. If you want to compete, you invest feats and WIS. What is wrong about that? Sure you will lose a fight to a ship with a group of dedicated characters. But since when losing a fight became something unwanted on a roleplay server? There is something related to play2win attitude here I see between the lines in my opinion. You still can participate in sailing, it is difficult to win against dedicated characters. There are many IC options to deal with that, like hiring a crew, talking it out with attackers, paying gold to attackers, having special status within sailing community by achieving this goal ICly. But no, people just one to be able to be optimal on land and being able to compete in the sea. That's is illogical from my perspective. You spend all your life sailing, you are probably no that good of a horse rider, and vice versa.

So I can't enchant best stuff as a mundane character. Why would I choose to go on forums and ask to give me such possibility instead of hiring a crafter and creating RP? Don't you see that such mentality is hurtful towards the quality and diversity of roleplay?

Other arguments people brought is that different between land-pvp optimized characters and non optimal ones are not as big as between sailing optimized character and non optimal ones. Well, if you follow that logic, just -relevel and drop your EWF: One Handed Edged, drop imp. expertise for SF: Sail, drop few stat scores for wisdom and gear properly and you are done. Because if difference between optimal and non optimal land pvp character is not so critical, you won't end up crippled by such investment. But people don't do that. And guess why? Because they understand that characters that heavy invest in their specialization are better than other characters in land pvp, crafting, magic spell DCs, search/appraise and so on. I disagree that fully developed sailing crews should be on same competitive level of someone who spent their feats and geared up for being optimal somewhere else.

[Aradin]

Great conversation so far. I do a fair bit of sailing on my bard (and sailed as a non-bard on the character before them) and wanted to offer my two cents on how bard song plays in.

It does feel a bit like we're too necessary, and I would be all for halving the skill boost from sea shanties or capping it some other way. My bard was never intended to be a sailor and I have 0 sail skill and no gear for sailing. Nonetheless, when people are trying to gather crew for a sail together, I've been told on multiple occasions that the sail simply won't happen unless I'm there (assuming other bards aren't around). Heck, I get messaged OOC to log on and join sails so that I can provide the bonus. And if I don't want to or can't sail at that particular time I'm preventing 3-10 people who do want to.

This is of course in large part a player culture issue, as having a bard is technically not a requirement for doing high-level sailing. Nowhere in the rules does it say you have to have a bard on board to sail. But in my experience sailors feel so reliant on the skill boost from sea shanties that sometimes they simply refuse to set sail without a bard, particularly if they're expecting PVP. I don't think the boost bard song provides should be so tantalizingly good that it becomes perceived as a baseline necessity to sail. Again, just my anecdotal experience so take it with a grain of salt.

[-XXX-]

Let's not trivialize the 33 sail skill investment. Yes, a wizard build might be able to casually allocate the ranks, but that's about it.
For any other build that is already a choice and a tradeoff. It often means that the character won't be able to see through disguises, read powerful scrolls, open treasure chests, peddle loot for good prices etc.

Then there's the "what do I think that people want" strawman. Nobody's saying that "I want to dominate naval content but don't want to build for it" here, but as it stands RP and cooperation don't mean alot because you can assemble a crew and get a ship, unless any of the "elite" sailor characters agree to partake in the endeavour, you'll be out of the league for any of the more advanced stuff. That's literally the textbook deffinition of gatekeeping which is absent from every other aspect of the game.

[Distant Relation]

-snip-

Look, it's fairly obvious what's happening here. You're not going to be content until 33 sail ranks is all it takes to make a top tier sailor.

We respectfully disagree, because we want very much to have a distinction between a character who is a specialist sailor and one who isn't.

You've already correctly identified that the difference between a 'casually competitive' sail build (pre bardsong) is skill 60, and a 'hyper competitive' sail build (pre bardsong) is skill 70. This is a delta of 10 points. There's not much room to maneuver. Therefore the only way to achieve what you propose is to both remove any attribute scaling from the sail skill and make SF/ESF sail disappear.

This would immediately kill the very concept of a sailor build.


You say you want to be "competitive" at ship pvp, but you don't necessarily want to be 'hyper competitive'. This feels like mincing words, because you're working with a delta that's so small that if you remove ESF Sail from the equation there will no longer be a distinction between those two things.

You DO want to be hyper competitive at ship pvp. You've been harping on this thread for three days from different angles of attack trying to get that point across. You want to do it without the incredibly tiny gesture of spending one epic feat for ESF Sail.

Let me tell you a story.

My character is an Enchantment Wizard. I have both SF and ESF Sail. I also have both SF and ESF Leadership, because that's required to power up Good Hope.

That's right. I have spent four feats on being able to boost my crew's performance. For this, compared to the typical wizard build, I have given up SF/GSF/ESF Abjuration, Arcane Defense Abjuration, and Epic Mage Armor.

And I am thrilled with this. I have clear disadvantages compared to a typical wizard, but I also have advantages in specific other situations and fields. I am an actual specialist. How cool is that?

Can you really not spare one epic feat out of your Weave Master build to take ESF Sail? Can your fighter friends not drop something, anything, for ESF Sail? Is Epic Prowess really the dealbreaker? Is sailing content so unimportant to you that it's not worth that much?

If it is that unimportant to you, the answer is simple:
Bring along one or two trained, epic sailors when you do want to the peak, top 10% of sail content. Otherwise, being a Really Good Sailor (skill 60 before bardsong) is plenty enough.


And finally:

It's impossible to ~survive~ a naval engagement vs a much higher sail skill crew.

What's the definition of 'much higher' here?

If we're talking like a 40+ skill delta between the crews, then I agree, and if you go back and read FallenDabius' post this is already something we're feedbacking to AR and trying to get changed by having pvp work on a capped sliding scale.

If we're talking a 10 skill delta, between a crew with no ESF Sail and a crew with it?

If so, this is a bald faced lie. And if you want an example of it, then read Wethrinea's post.


Please, stop trying to delete the very concept of a sailing build just so you can be top pvp without spending a feat.

[Biolab00]

That's really surprising me that people want to achieve highest possible reward within the area (like being capable of fighting most competitive crews) without investment and "casualize" sailing.

You are still able to reach most of areas just having gear and skill investment. If you want to compete, you invest feats and WIS. What is wrong about that? Sure you will lose a fight to a ship with a group of dedicated characters. But since when losing a fight became something unwanted on a roleplay server? There is something related to play2win attitude here I see between the lines in my opinion. You still can participate in sailing, it is difficult to win against dedicated characters. There are many IC options to deal with that, like hiring a crew, talking it out with attackers, paying gold to attackers, having special status within sailing community by achieving this goal ICly. But no, people just one to be able to be optimal on land and being able to compete in the sea. That's is illogical from my perspective. You spend all your life sailing, you are probably no that good of a horse rider, and vice versa.

So I can't enchant best stuff as a mundane character. Why would I choose to go on forums and ask to give me such possibility instead of hiring a crafter and creating RP? Don't you see that such mentality is hurtful towards the quality and diversity of roleplay?

Other arguments people brought is that different between land-pvp optimized characters and non optimal ones are not as big as between sailing optimized character and non optimal ones. Well, if you follow that logic, just -relevel and drop your EWF: One Handed Edged, drop imp. expertise for SF: Sail, drop few stat scores for wisdom and gear properly and you are done. Because if difference between optimal and non optimal land pvp character is not so critical, you won't end up crippled by such investment. But people don't do that. And guess why? Because they understand that characters that heavy invest in their specialization are better than other characters in land pvp, crafting, magic spell DCs, search/appraise and so on. I disagree that fully developed sailing crews should be on same competitive level of someone who spent their feats and geared up for being optimal somewhere else.

Actually, you're wrong. My toon has zero sail investment and effectively, negative sail. But i still rent a ship and set sail to visit all the Areas in the sea unless, those NPC ships also count as 'Areas' then, yea i can't do shit about these. And if dev suddenly decide to set requirement sailing for certain location which i doubt that it will happen.

[FallenDabus]

One thing that is really important to keep in mind is that the sailing content is asymmetrically designed. In other words, seafaring content is meant to be inherently unfair. The sailing community up until this point has embraced and enjoyed this because it creates very interesting dynamics and opportunities for really interesting stories.

For example, all settlement ports have access to the most powerful type of ships. The sail score the Dreadnought, Guldorand Flagship, Cordor Flagship and the Ironhelm require to comfortably tackle top-tier PvE content is far lower than the sail score required for crews with other ships.

With PvP it is similar. In addition to them just being powerful in ship to ship combat - they can chainshot you to close to board - and because of their HP it is really difficult to sink them before they are able to close the distance. Crew 2-5 ships are incredibly vulnerable to them because of this.

This is also one reason why high sail crews tend to be more common in Sencliff. Every single Sencliff ship is leagues behind the Flagships in power. For them the 90s sail scores actually become vital for top-tier PvE and PvP content. Sencliff by design are the underdogs of the sea.

The conflict between the Dreadnought and Sencliff these past six or so months was delightfully unfair.

That is not to say there are no design or balance issues. The inherent asymmetric unfairness requires careful balancing of the unbalance. Some were covered in this thread. In my mind a great example of a design issue is the lack of a crew 4 charter with a diving bell for Cordor or Guld. I have long felt that non-pirate non-navy crews on arelith need some love and support.

I am so incredibly happy that Elindros managed to work out a temporary fix to it by getting access to the First Sister. It has been so long overdue to have a free-merchant type crew join the other crews at sea.


The second thing to keep in mind is that seafaring content is designed to be cooperative. It is another thing many love about it, because crews feel far more like a traditional adventuring party. It does not really matter if you are at the cutting edge of PvE and can solo grind runic materials or be fantastic at ganking folks in PvP. It is much more about cooperative play and how your character contributes to the group success.

This may be why folks who have been sailing for a long time now do not really see an issue with someone making the small sacrifice to take Epic Skill Focus: Sail, or why many do not consider it a major issue that a cleric has an easier time getting high sail. Them having an easier time getting high sail benefits us as much as it benefits them. Their individual sail score means absolutely nothing outside of the combined crew's sail score.

I do not consider wisdom an issue because why should I in the context of the group? What I care about is that over time more classes feel like they can contribute in unique and interesting ways during voyages. But neither do I think it is a huge issue to make sail non-attribute specific, as then wisdom classes can be other sailing benefits.

[Zaphiel]

Let's not trivialize the 33 sail skill investment. Yes, a wizard build might be able to casually allocate the ranks, but that's about it.
For any other build that is already a choice and a tradeoff. It often means that the character won't be able to see through disguises, read powerful scrolls, open treasure chests, peddle loot for good prices etc.

...

Finally, you really don't need a top PvP tier build to play the game. It's perfectly possible to SOLO endgame PvE content on a suboptimal build. It's also perfectly possible to go against optimized characters in PvP with a suboptimally built one and WIN.
It's not possible to tackle the more challenging aspects of sailing and/or meaningfully participate in naval PvP for a CREW of characters who COLLECTIVELY do not seriously skew their character builds toward sailing.

Here we go again... You are still insisting on being able to do everything.

It's perfectly possible to SOLO endgame PvE content on a suboptimal build

So is suboptimal sailing build. (Okay now I feel like you will start talking about sailing being non-solo stuff but these two systems are not 100% same thing which one needs co-operation with others. That is the purpose of the design.)

Then there's the "what do I think that people want" strawman. Nobody's saying that "I want to dominate naval content but don't want to build for it" here, but as it stands RP and cooperation don't mean alot because you can assemble a crew and get a ship, unless any of the "elite" sailor characters agree to partake in the endeavour, you'll be out of the league for any of the more advanced stuff. That's literally the textbook deffinition of gatekeeping and is absent from every other aspect of the game.

Now lets talk about 60ish sail skill crews. These crews would only have issues, pve wise, with Amnians and Undead Galleons, as they should. They're not specialized crews. My character was made to sail so I push for higher numbers. You didn't make your character to be the greatest sailor? Don't expect to be doing what the greats are doing. Don't like that your 60 sail skill character isn't helping a 80+ focused crew? Create your own smaller crew where you contribute, or build a character that can participate, or just don't worry about it and be a Captain of these 90+ tanks, don't need sail skill to rp afterall. As for the pvp aspect to this? A 90 sail skill crew is going to win against your 60 sail crew in a 1 on 1, that's just what's expected. Run away. I've successfully gotten away from flagships multiple times on a 3 crewer as solo/duo sailors, it's doable. Bring a repairer, keep the sails to full, run towards main. Don't want to risk getting sunk? Surrender, white flag, take a loss. If they're still sinking you? Shame on them for bad sportsmanship, and maybe report, iunno. Also, just as a note, you don't need 90+ sail skill to take on Galleons and Amnians, could do it with 80ish or maybe even 70ish if you like getting frisky.

[Distant Relation]

This is also one reason why high sail crews tend to be more common in Sencliff. Every single Sencliff ship is leagues behind the Flagships in power. For them the 90s sail scores actually become vital for top-tier PvE and PvP content. Sencliff by design are the underdogs of the sea.

This is such an important and key point that I'm going to rehash in smaller, easier to understand words.

You ( XXX / Olivia Van Graf ) are curently in the crew of the Ironhelm, one of the capital flagships, and mathematically THE most powerful of the flagships currently available. Your ship has incredibly good base stats before you even consider sail skill.

If you take the Ironhelm out to sea with an average sail of 80 (60ish + bardsong), you will be fighting on an even pace with a Sencliff crew pushing the golden 95 threshold. That's how powerful the Ironhelm is, that even in your present state you are more than a match for anything *anyone else* can put out at sea.

If you get your act together and push 90 or even 95, the Ironhelm is going to be the ABSOLUTE TERROR of the sea. We're going to see a golden age where the long maligned 'dinky dwarf barrelboat' is going to be the king of the waves. Remember, there's no going above the golden 95. If you're there, you are peak pvp. The top dog. The Bismarck of Arelith.


Wanna know what us Sencliff people say to that, between ourselves, in our secret discords and in our ooc tells?

"It's gonna be so cool when they do that. We'll have to really play smart at that point. Maybe we should work something out with one of the other crews so we've got some backup."

If only you could look upon sailing with the same love that the current sailors do, as a cooperative storytelling environment, where we're all secretly rooting for each other ooc. Why?
- Because Elindros is amazing IC and OOC and I love him to bits, despite the fact he's our most direct opponent at this time, and he's a genuinely good chap that is putting a huge effort into making sailing fun for his people.
- Because Jhaamdath is the lurking shadow in the corner, the third force that threatens to upset any weakly established alliance that might form between the surfacers, the perfect antagonist to tip the scales at any point, and I honestly can't imagine the seas of Arelith without him and his Dreadnought ready to pounce out of a shadow at any time.
- Because the other Sencliff crews, once divided by mixed allegiances, are now banding together in order to deal with these threats and have a more unified front than in the entire history of Sencliff as a result. No longer is Sencliff RP limited to meaningless internal power struggles and being 'Little Andunor'.

This sort of power dynamic can only happen due to the innate little imbalances in the system that FallenDabius has mentioned. It's also beautiful that its a little microcosm of people interacting with each other kind of outside of Arelith mainstream, but also definitely affecting the political discourse of Arelith mainstream.

ActionReplay is a genius, and this is his masterpiece.

[-XXX-]

It's ok, you're right, I was wrong and came around.

[Nobs]

On Biff i often sail solo on the rental ships with a whole sail skill of -1 and i get where i need to go and often i still spot locations like sandbanks , ruins and other islands.

Sure you wont be able to do any actualy ship vs ship pve/pvp but thats fine

[Wenchslayer]

On Bards:

The difference between using a flagship with and without a bard is effectively the difference between doing the top end content easily, or struggling to do it, since the bards contribution is magnified based on crew size.

PvP is currently impossible without a shanty specialized bard character if the other ship has one. The difference becomes too great as it's roughly equivalent to losing 3 AB and 3 AC.

Bards are also a serious crutch for flagship crews as finding six optimized sailors is near impossible without pre-planning in some OOC fashion. (Though it has been done once or twice, and even hit the 100 cap)

Bards are essential. It would be nice if they were not as essential, but that would make it even harder for me to get a crew for a flagship and we'd go out even less.


Possible solution for Sail Skill Disparity:

I had suggested a long time ago that the flat AC and AB gains for ships could be placed on a diminishing curve similar to how leadership's best perks cap at 50 skill, but continue to give some benefit after 50 skill.

AC and AB variance likely matter however since flagships will become far too dominant without the current system allowing ships to reach 100 skill with the full benefit of AC and AB. At that point it will just come down to who has the most HP. That said, it still pretty much comes down to that at this time since it is possible to boost AB with the use of +3, +4 or +5 ammunition, but it is not possible to boost AC except by reducing AB. In practice crews of equal skill just hammer each other rarely missing with the occasional random crit until the ship with greater DR and HP kills them.


On Boarding


Boarding while the most interactive of the systems is probably the most dangerous and hitting a grappling hook is usually a game of chance. If the crews are sizeable enough (12+ each) you also have problems with the boarding transition being camped which cannot really be solved because there's -simply very little space on a ship to fight-. This should be looked at, maybe giving multiple locations to board, or randomly placing characters on the other ship when they board, spread out. Typically I'm unable to hit a grappling hit unless the battle was already very much in my favor during the ship combat phase which allows me to risk boarding versus just sinking the person.

On Asymmetrical balance:

The asymmetry of the ship system is a feature, not a problem. It's probably one of the most attractive aspects to the system in the sense that vessels have clear advantages and weaknesses forcing players to make decisions based on those asymmetrical differences.

Cordorians will always have the best logistics for boarding crews, and the dreadnaught will always be infamously difficult to sink but the slowest iron tub on the water. Seriously. Almost everyone escapes, chain shot or not. It's ludicrously slow. Amusingly however, it gets bonus hide skill. So it's a sneaky slow iron tub.

Sencliff generally has the fastest average ships and their start lends to easily finding the most skilled crew members.

On Class diversity:


Certain classes just make awful sailors, especially if they are feat starved or not wisdom based. Class diversity should probably be improved by offering options to improve that aren't based on feats or wisdom stats.

I rarely see paladins, Favored souls hexblades, blackguards, sorcerers, dwarven defenders or any divine shield or divine might based class going sailing. They simply don't have enough feats to make it work without severely gimping their base concepts. If they are charisma based, they rarely take sail skill because they are already being feat taxed with divine might/divine shield. These feats make a world of difference and effectively lock most of these examples out of the sailing game.

Fighters and barbarians can also feel neglected as these classes can spare the feats, but do lose out noticeably in other avenues if they do.

Closing thoughts:

Sailing is a team activity, and crews should be thought of as interlocking pieces, rather then single character sheets. It's okay if someone else can hit a higher sail number, and in fact is probably a good thing. Willy Weaponmaster will still do excellently at boarding along with Barry Barbarian even if they can't quite hit 100 skill.

The strength of the dreadnaught in sea combat is probably one of the few reasons why I've had success on an Andunorian character in actually being a credible threat, on a server in which your enemies outnumber you in population at least 3 to 1, both in logistics and just sheer numbers they can call to bear. Andunor just doesn't really lend itself to sailing with only two ships available for the largest city in arelith, and having a strong flagship makes up for the lack of sailor options other parts of the server enjoy. Were it not for a very strong player culture that developed around the dreadnaught, I doubt it would realistically be used much at all since the environment just doesn't favor recruitment as the vast majority of sailor characters will opt to be a part of Sencliff or the surface settlements.

I was not a personal fan of 'Gift of Sail' as I think that created a problem with being forced to choose to be a sailor at character generation to get the most of out the system.

Bards however are at this time and virtually every dedicated crew has a full time bard character on every sail trip.

I think adding in greater options in the form of spells and craftable items will allow a little more crew diversity. I'm not against the possibility of multiple stats being used for sailing skill as well, such as how climbing incorporates strength or dexterity. I would like to see the system move away from ESF Sail and SF sail only because this locks out a significant number of player classes from really being a part of the system.

I think the system is largely fine, and could just use a little more class diversity and different ways of reaching the upper level of sail skill. Right now the primary way to reach it is build based, and it would be nice to see a few more items and options for those who can't make those kinds of sacrifices.