Harpers and Zhents

[Stop. Ninja Time]

The elephant in the room that has been bothering me a while - why are these RP Token locked? They're almost identical to eachother (Harper knowledge vs Skill Focus Lore, and some prereq differences, thoughMaster Harper is unique) - and they're incredibly overpowered compared to what other classes get in 5 levels for their cost.

Why are these locked behind an application, so that only certain people can use the most powerful classes?

"But wait, they're not overpowered!"

All of them take:
- 2 feats (alertness/iron will, or great fort/thug)
- All of them take a bunch of skill points, (being forced to take concentration on your spellcaster isn't a cost)
- The cost of not having a different third class

In return they all get
- At least two bonus feats which they can use for bonus epic feats
- Useful skill access
- Several additional bonus feats or saves
- No lost spellcasting
- Unique features not available elsewhere, like Eschew material(Why can't I burn a feat on this?) or planar turning without needing 19 cha.
- Bonus Lore

Specifically:
Mage/Naug-adar: Full spellcasting, Eschew Material, Greater Spell pen, 2 epic feats, +10 spellcraft, +10 concentration, +3-5 lore

Priest/Fear-Speaker: Full spellcasting, -bonus- Turn DC (8 for 5 levels, making them stronger than clerics at this), planar turning (without meeting the prereqs), armor skin, easier piety gain, extend spell, +3-5 lore, 2 epic feats

Paragon/Enforcer: 6 Uni Save (or dark blessing/divine grace), 3 epic feats, turn undead, 3-5lore

Scout/Operative: Full rogue stacking, semi-caster progression, -track, no tracks, free buffs/items (potion of attunement for harper!), poison (zhent only), +13 bluff, +3-5lore, 2 epic feats

Master Harper: Full spellcasting and song progression, +18 lore, +13 perform (and epic perform for bard songs), 2 bonus epic feats, infinite songs

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So at the cost of 2 preepic feats and a bunch of generally useful skillpoints, and a single class slot, you get access to useful skills, more epic feats and a ton of other useful features. For example with Master Harper, no other 5 level dip will get you +31 skills, 2 bonus epic feats and not lose any progression at the cost of 18 skill points (all useful) and 2 feats (both decently useful), and that isn't even counting how powerful infinite songs is. All of them give 3-4 epic feats.

Unfortunately this has the effect of causing the classes to be applied for in order to gain the mechanical power (I saw such on my harper, multiple times).

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So why are these locked being a token? Why do they have to specifically be -harper- and -zhent- rather than something generic that everyone gets to play, and just lock the clubhouses behind tokens/class requirements? The same clubhouse can provide the voting bonuses, so that can be removed from the class. We could easily rename them and open them up.

Harper Mage => Scholar - For anyone that hates spell components, or just wants to be better at spellcasting without ranger dipping
Harper Paragon => Knight-Errant - Useful for anyone not wanting to be a paladin, but wanting some holiness
Harper Priest => Temple Priest - Useful for those focusing heavily on priest roleplay rather than being a battle cleric
Harper Scout => Covert Agent - Useful for planeswalkers and sneaks that want a bit of magic, or magical folk wanting some sneak
Master Harper => Master Songsmith - For those bards among bards

Naug-Adar => Renegade Mage - Similar to Scholar, just evil version, could probably collapse it with Scholar
Fear-Speaker => Fear-Speaker - Is actually a pretty good name for someone who's job is to spread fear; given it's identical to Temple priest, they could just be combined.
Enforcer => Enforcer - Enforcer is a good name for it, really, though this has some overlap with Blackguard it's a nice place where you're not evil devil/demon summoning/animator, just a general evil guy
Operative => Operative - Again, a good name for a poisoning covert agent/murderer scout, could be combined with Scout too, give the best of both classes and still be interesting

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TLDR: It's not really fair that the Harper/Zhent are locked behind DM approved tokens when the classes are just more powerful, meaning that playing a Harper/Zhent is a PVP advantage. Mechanical advantage should not be something you get from approved-by-DMs RP. It'd be like if Paladin/Monk/Fighter were only allowed when DM approved, making those with DM approval stomp those without. On top of that, people will apply and get tokens 100% for the power, I've seen it happen. Can we please open them up to the rest of the server and make them generic to create more RP opportunities/variance in builds (and reduce the number of people applying for the token for mechanical power)?

[AstralUniverse]

I wouldnt mind if they were unlocked and decoupled from the Faction(tm) harper/zhent class while the harper/zhent remain existing the way they are now exactly. People who actually want to RP those classes will still need to send an app to get the Pin and access to the Base and meet the other cool kids, but people who want to play them for mechanical strength will just play them without the Pin (so without the base, without RPing spy with the all knowing cool kids).

It would also make it easier for characters who ARE in fact harpers/zhents to conceal it.

[Edited for clarity]

[Gracklstugh]

"On top of that, people will apply and get tokens 100% for the power, I've seen it happen."

On the other hand, what do you do if you unlock the classes for the whole server and all of a sudden, everyone is a Harper on Zhent, just for the mechanical aspect? It goes the same when making some of the "rare" races more accessible to the whole server. See the recent Firbog "incident".

I never played one of these, I would like to but I understand why they are locked behind approval, same as certain races.

In the current situation there are plenty of new classes to play, there is plenty of diversity and classes that are supposed to be a rare sight (Assassin/ Harper/Zhent) should not be opened to the whole server.

My two cents on it.

[Good Character]

"Can we please open them up to the rest of the server and make them generic to create more RP opportunities/variance in builds (and reduce the number of people applying for the token for mechanical power)?"

Counterintuitive to what you want done. If they are as powerful as you say (and I am not denying some far), then there will be a greater lack of variance in builds.

Not sure how unlocking these classes yields more RP opportunities, either.


IMHO, because of the consistency of the staff and the standard they've maintained I am more than happy to keep a stronger class that is and has been significant to Faerun's overall lore locked behind a DM-approved token, which differs completely from my opinion and the staff's opinion on gating power behind epic sacrifice awards.

[Nitro]

"On top of that, people will apply and get tokens 100% for the power, I've seen it happen."

On the other hand, what do you do if you unlock the classes for the whole server and all of a sudden, everyone is a Harper on Zhent, just for the mechanical aspect? It goes the same when making some of the "rare" races more accessible to the whole server. See the recent Firbog "incident".

I never played one of these, I would like to but I understand why they are locked behind approval, same as certain races.

In the current situation there are plenty of new classes to play, there is plenty of diversity and classes that are supposed to be a rare sight (Assassin/ Harper/Zhent) should not be opened to the whole server.

My two cents on it.

Easy fix would be to rename both harpers and zhents to "agent" or something similar and then decouple harper or zhent membership from them entirely. Then people can take the class to get the mechanical stuff as they please, and apply to the DM's to become a harper/zhent because they want to RP as one, not because there is a mechanically powerful class attached to the faction.

I have often lamented that if I want to make a wizard/sorcerer/true flame that wants to get eschew components, I have to think up some contrived reason to make the character a harper and steer their roleplay entirely in that direction, because the only way to get eschew components lies in those classes.

[Dr. B]

They're locked to preserve the integrity of the setting, not because of their mechanical power. If they were unlocked, an unrealistic number of people would take the class and not roleplay it with the appropriate secrecy.

[Twily]

I genuinely don't feel it's quite as overpowered as the post makes it sound.

Investing 2 feats and one of your class slots is not a small investment, and there are tons of classes that offer a ton of benefits for very low investment. Fighter, Cleric, Paladin, Monk, Rogue, Bard, and Ranger to name a few.

For the most part, the extra feats like skill focuses, eschew materials, and infinite bard songs are more flavorful than anything else. ESF Concentration isn't going to let a caster dominate PvP, Bard Songs regenerate on their own now, and spell components are easily made/purchased leaving Eschew Materials more as a quality of life benefit than direct power.

Plus the available class skills have been adjusted to match the classes they synergize best with so they can't easily get every skill they want without losing 'something'. Not to mention no Harper option gets access to Spellcraft, Discipline, Tumble and UMD like Bard does.

There are of course certain builds and combinations where harper lines up just right and is powerful, but this is also the case with any class, and there's no shortage of extremely powerful builds that don't want harper.


Misc Ramblings on Harper's Bonus Feats:
Even setting aside the skill requirements for the classes(Since they are often, but not always, very minimal):

Harper Paragon and Paladin are very similar.
Harper: Takes 2 feats, gets you three feats.
Paladin: Takes 0 feats.
Sure harper paragon is up one feat, but it also takes 5 levels instead of 3 if you want Divine Grace. It's definitely strong, but I wouldn't say 'extremely' overpowered. This has the potential to be very powerful if the build can get all the pre-epic feats it needs already, but this often isn't the case.

And if someone is looking at harper purely for the bonus feats in epics, combat classes can just grab a few levels in Fighter or Divine Champion to get those feats without having to lose 2 pre-epic feats.
This may not be the case for casters, but considering most casters going for epic spells/foci have at least 21 caster levels, they're always losing at least 1 bonus epic feat from their main class by going harper instead (so now at best they're spending 2 pre-epic feats to be up only 1 epic feat. This isn't insignificant when you also consider very few casting classes have bonus feats pre-epic).

[ImWithThisGuy]

Unfortunately this has the effect of causing the classes to be applied for in order to gain the mechanical power (I saw such on my harper, multiple times).
-----------
So why are these locked being a token? Why do they have to specifically be -harper- and -zhent- rather than something generic that everyone gets to play, and just lock the clubhouses behind tokens/class requirements? The same clubhouse can provide the voting bonuses, so that can be removed from the class. We could easily rename them and open them up.
-----------------------
TLDR: It's not really fair that the Harper/Zhent are locked behind DM approved tokens when the classes are just more powerful, meaning that playing a Harper/Zhent is a PVP advantage. Mechanical advantage should not be something you get from approved-by-DMs RP. It'd be like if Paladin/Monk/Fighter were only allowed when DM approved, making those with DM approval stomp those without. On top of that, people will apply and get tokens 100% for the power, I've seen it happen. Can we please open them up to the rest of the server and make them generic to create more RP opportunities/variance in builds (and reduce the number of people applying for the token for mechanical power)?

Let me preface with this, because it's necessary: The Harper and Zhentarim class lines are definitely powerful. And naturally, power will attract players. But that doesn't mean they will only be used for power, or that the power behind the classes is unjustified. Assassins have it even worse, because their roleplay is more or less centered around Killing Other Players. If that's not a reason to need a token, I don't know what is. My point is; It's the principle, not the power behind it.

Ultimately, this really comes down to a matter of whether or not you trust the DM team, as well as your fellow players. The DMs review, vote, and then must collectively decide for a character to be given a token, which is given by judging the player's history, acclimation for roleplay, general behavior, and so on. Furthermore, the token is only the first step; they are continuously under watch by the DMs, and if a player doesn't participate in Harper/Zhent rp at all, I for one think they should have the right to remove said token. If it becomes clear to you at any point that another player is only applying, using, or keeping their token purely for mechanical power, Report it. The worst that could happen is the DM's look into it.

There is nothing wrong with creating powerful builds, or enjoying them, but roleplay is roleplay. If someone is ignoring or denying the roleplay of their class for just it's mechanical benefit, you as a player have the power to take steps against it, but only if you choose to use that power. The DM's can see everything you show them, but just don't have the time to read a near infinite amount of chat history going in blind.

I understand your lamentations, I really do, but frankly, I feel like the first step the team would likely take in cases like these are just class rebalances for Harper/Zhent. They would be normalized with every other dip class, which I don't think is necessary, or really reasonable, given the systems already in place.

And a further note, if anyone is taking these classes only for the power, please just don't. Have some restraint.

[Stop. Ninja Time]

I wouldnt mind if they were unlocked and decoupled from the Faction(tm).

It would also make it easier for characters who ARE in fact harpers/zhents to conceal it.

Agreed!

"On top of that, people will apply and get tokens 100% for the power, I've seen it happen."

On the other hand, what do you do if you unlock the classes for the whole server and all of a sudden, everyone is a Harper on Zhent, just for the mechanical aspect?

"Can we please open them up to the rest of the server and make them generic to create more RP opportunities/variance in builds (and reduce the number of people applying for the token for mechanical power)?"

Counterintuitive to what you want done. If they are as powerful as you say (and I am not denying some far), then there will be a greater lack of variance in builds.

Not sure how unlocking these classes yields more RP opportunities, either.


IMHO, because of the consistency of the staff and the standard they've maintained I am more than happy to keep a stronger class that is and has been significant to Faerun's overall lore locked behind a DM-approved token, which differs completely from my opinion and the staff's opinion on gating power behind epic sacrifice awards.

They're locked to preserve the integrity of the setting, not because of their mechanical power. If they were unlocked, an unrealistic number of people would take the class and not roleplay it with the appropriate secrecy.

Well as I said above, my feedback is that they shouldn't be tied to Harper or Zhent at all, but be more generic classes. Remove them from faction association (and I agree that Assassin should have the same treatment) and make the faction something you apply for but the class not.

Not sure how unlocking these classes yields more RP opportunities, either.

I listed these above.
Scout would be useful for someone trying to play a planeswalker, or a magical sneak.
Priest/Fear-speaker are great for someone trying to really double down on being a priest with bonuses to turning undead (Lathander priest focused on banishing undead for example).
Enforcer is great for someone not wanting to be super EVIL blackguard/hexblade but still wants some minor divine abilities (think someone that prays to Cyric for minor boons, but doesn't actually full on study how to summon demons).
Paragon is great on the good side for someone that wants to play a knight with minor holy protection without being a paladin. Arguably does double up with Divine Champion, but it's a more defensive class.
Master Harper is great for someone that wants to RP playing songs all the time
Mage is great for really any wizard or sorcerer that wants to double down on being a scholar

etc etc etc

Note that none of my examples have -anything- to do with being a harper or zhent, and tying them to Zhent adds nothing to the class.

I genuinely don't feel it's quite as overpowered as the post makes it sound.

Investing 2 feats and one of your class slots is not a small investment, and there are tons of classes that offer a ton of benefits for very low investment. Fighter, Cleric, Paladin, Monk, Rogue, Bard, and Ranger to name a few.

For the most part, the extra feats like skill focuses, eschew materials, and infinite bard songs are more flavorful than anything else. ESF Concentration isn't going to let a caster dominate PvP, Bard Songs regenerate on their own now, and spell components are easily made/purchased leaving Eschew Materials more as a quality of life benefit than direct power.

Plus the available class skills have been adjusted to match the classes they synergize best with so they can't easily get every skill they want without losing 'something'. Not to mention no Harper option gets access to Spellcraft, Discipline, Tumble and UMD like Bard does.

There are of course certain builds and combinations where harper lines up just right and is powerful, but this is also the case with any class, and there's no shortage of extremely powerful builds that don't want harper.


Misc Ramblings on Harper's Bonus Feats:
Even setting aside the skill requirements for the classes(Since they are often, but not always, very minimal):

Harper Paragon and Paladin are very similar.
Harper: Takes 2 feats, gets you three feats.
Paladin: Takes 0 feats.
Sure harper paragon is up one feat, but it also takes 5 levels instead of 3 if you want Divine Grace. It's definitely strong, but I wouldn't say 'extremely' overpowered. This has the potential to be very powerful if the build can get all the pre-epic feats it needs already, but this often isn't the case.

And if someone is looking at harper purely for the bonus feats in epics, combat classes can just grab a few levels in Fighter or Divine Champion to get those feats without having to lose 2 pre-epic feats.
This may not be the case for casters, but considering most casters going for epic spells/foci have at least 21 caster levels, they're always losing at least 1 bonus epic feat from their main class by going harper instead (so now at best they're spending 2 pre-epic feats to be up only 1 epic feat. This isn't insignificant when you also consider very few casting classes have bonus feats pre-epic).

Epic feats are vastly more valuable than preepic feats. Take harper priest for example:

Let's say you want to play caster cleric with Conj/Trans/Evo foci to implode things.
Standard Caster Cleric:
27cleric/3bard
Feats Preepic: SF/GSF Conj, SF/GSF Trans, Extend, SF/GSF Evo, Empower
Epic: Dragon Knight, ESF Evo, ESF Conj, ESF Trans, Armor Skin, ESF Discipline

Bard in place for UMD/Disc/Tumble

Now you can do....
22Cleric/5Harper Priest/3 Bard
Feats: Preepic SF/GSF Conj, SF/GSF Trans, Empower, Iron Will, Alertness, SF Evo
Epic: Dragon Knight, GSF Evo/ESF Evo, ESF Conj, ESF Trans, ESF Disc, Armor Skin (Free), Planar Turning (free), Extend (free)

Difference?
You get +3 Turning DC, Planar Turning, +5 Lore, +2Reflex, +4 Will, +2 Spot/Listen all for the cost of... 6 lore, 8 leadership, 8 concentration.
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Standard Deep Rogue: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1L2F ... 7aRjo/edit
19 rogue/6 fighter/5 Harper Scout - Harper scout loses /nothing/ from rogue, as they stack with all rogue abilities including grenades.

They get: No tracks/-track, +5 lore, SF bluff, ESF Bluff, 1 bonus feat (loses one from lower rogue), free cat's grace/invis/eagle's splendor/potion of attunement, +2 reflex, +4 will, 2 save vs mind spells, 2 save vs traps

The cost is one feat (scout gives 2 bonus feats, but you lose one rogue bonus feat, and the two feat cost) and needing disc/lore/bluf/search which you're taking anyways.

So basically a 1 feat cost to not have tracks, get +5 lore, +13 bluff, free stuff, and +6 will save vs spells

I could continue but- I don't want this to Wall anymore than it is.

Let me preface with this, because it's necessary: The Harper and Zhentarim class lines are definitely powerful. And naturally, power will attract players. But that doesn't mean they will only be used for power, or that the power behind the classes is unjustified. Assassins have it even worse, because their roleplay is more or less centered around Killing Other Players. If that's not a reason to need a token, I don't know what is. My point is; It's the principle, not the power behind it.

Ultimately, this really comes down to a matter of whether or not you trust the DM team, as well as your fellow players. The DMs review, vote, and then must collectively decide for a character to be given a token, which is given by judging the player's history, acclimation for roleplay, general behavior, and so on. Furthermore, the token is only the first step; they are continuously under watch by the DMs, and if a player doesn't participate in Harper/Zhent rp at all, I for one think they should have the right to remove said token. If it becomes clear to you at any point that another player is only applying, using, or keeping their token purely for mechanical power, Report it. The worst that could happen is the DM's look into it.

There is nothing wrong with creating powerful builds, or enjoying them, but roleplay is roleplay. If someone is ignoring or denying the roleplay of their class for just it's mechanical benefit, you as a player have the power to take steps against it, but only if you choose to use that power. The DM's can see everything you show them, but just don't have the time to read a near infinite amount of chat history going in blind.

I understand your lamentations, I really do, but frankly, I feel like the first step the team would likely take in cases like these are just class rebalances for Harper/Zhent. They would be normalized with every other dip class, which I don't think is necessary, or really reasonable, given the systems already in place.

And a further note, if anyone is taking these classes only for the power, please just don't. Have some restraint.

There is similarly no good reason Assassin has to be locked, keep the faction behind tokens but the class can be allowed by anyone. Not as if killing things is evil on a server where we take writs to kill people (See the Reaver Writs, Bandit Writs, etc).

I have to disagree that this has /anything/ to do with trusting anyone (DM or players), though - it's about opening up more RP opportunities by allowing more choice. People /do/ take the class for the mechanical benefits, and people /do/ take the class because they're interested in the RP (as I did). My opinion is that there are no good reasons that the class must exist tied to specific faction RP. Let people that want harper/zhent RP build as they want, let people that want to do weird builds with Eschew Materials or extra songs or whatever do as they want. There is a reason you don't have to be part of the Hawk'n/Kuldarn to play an Earthkin Defender, or don't have to be part of the Tower to play a wizard, or be part of the Radiant Heart to play a paladin/PDK. The freedom to RP your class as you see fit.

They /should/ be brought more in line with other dips, but my issue is more that mechanical power is tied to specific RP and a specific clubhouse.

If a small group of people have additional power over the rest, that's pretty much the definition of it being unfair to the whole. There is a big difference between private classes and races you have to apply for - you can't divorce the race from the RP. You can't play a Firbolg like a halfling, or play a Vampire that walks around in the daytime and sparkles. You /can/ play a character that knows how to not use material components (eschew materials) without having to ask the Head Harper (or Head Zhent) how to do that.

[DM Monkey]

To answer the OP here:

These classes are based on specific roleplay and locked as a result. Applications are needed to make sure that people's concepts fit these classes as they fit specifically into the Arelith setting.

[Zavandar]

i admittedly haven't read everything but are people forgetting that investing in the classes also costs you bonus feats?

a mage that goes 27/3 vs 22/5/3, for example, has also lost wizard 23 and 26 bonus feats. it's not quite as feat positive as you think

harper mage is lackluster (spell pen isn't that useful) and eschew is QoL. imo it is the worst of the bunch and often feat negative.

master harper is good (sf/esf perform and lore is strong) but the infini song is just more curse song in pve since lasting inspiration makes songs last so much longer. still not a bad class at all. pairs well with div bards and edr bards.

paragon/enforcer is only useful for niche builds. you spend 2, get 3, but probably lose a bonus feat from your base class. i put together a weird 12 swash 5 paragon 13 wm together back when wm's had more feats but idk many more builds that use it. brycers want to go 24/3/3 for div and tumble and umd vs a 25/5 for example.

operative/scout is okay if you were wanting to get esf bluff, but you're losing rogue 24 too. very much a sidegrade class

hpriest is one of the stronger ones as it gives clerics tumble and cl, allowing them to dip fighter if they want wep specs; however, with umd books, going fighter at the cost of umd hurts. that said, as a dip it's usually feat positive, though things like war priest getting ad abj for free at 23 changes that up a bit. meh for paladins.

i won't say these classes don't need to be looked at (i've called for nerfing them before, and supported hpriest losing disc for example), but they're not quite as strong as some people make them out to be.




also they absolutely need to stay gated behind apps.

[Eyeliner]

Some of their cool toys like unlimited bard song and eschew materials could be added as greater Loremaster secret knowledge?

operative/scout is okay if you were wanting to get esf bluff, but you're losing rogue 24 too. very much a sidegrade class

They have rogue affinity so they get full access to grenades plus read tracks and trackless step, +13 bluff and so on. Scout and operative are very superior to ye old 24/6 rogue in the bag of tricks department as you get a lot in those 5 levels and can also take a 5 or 6 full BAB dip. Maybe not so much if you're only looking at PVP since they're more about utility and RP, but still.

[Quidix]

The by far biggest issue with these classes is Harper Priest getting tumble and full caster progression. Should just remove the tumble.

Master Harper is very strong for bards. A 25/5 bard is always better than a 30 bard, for example.

[AstralUniverse]

It feels like some of the people here replied to a different thread.

I dont think anyone here is suggesting to unlock Harper/Zhent - just rename them, so people can STILL play harper/zhent *the way they are now*, and would be required to send an application first in the same manner, BUT people who want the class for mechanical reason will be able to play it, but without having the harper/zhent pin and faction base and RP.

[Nitro]

It feels like some of the people here replied to a different thread.

I dont think anyone here is suggesting to unlock Harper/Zhent - just rename them, so people can STILL play harper/zhent *the way they are now*, and would be required to send an application first in the same manner, BUT people who want the class for mechanical reason will be able to play it, but without having the harper/zhent pin and faction base and RP.

Yeah, reading this thread is like standing in a twilight zone where everyone keeps saying something unrelated to the argument at hand entirely.

[Stop. Ninja Time]

It feels like some of the people here replied to a different thread.

I dont think anyone here is suggesting to unlock Harper/Zhent - just rename them, so people can STILL play harper/zhent *the way they are now*, and would be required to send an application first in the same manner, BUT people who want the class for mechanical reason will be able to play it, but without having the harper/zhent pin and faction base and RP.

Yeah, reading this thread is like standing in a twilight zone where everyone keeps saying something unrelated to the argument at hand entirely.

Appreciate you both. I am a broken record on infinite loop of repeating the actual feedback apparently!

The by far biggest issue with these classes is Harper Priest getting tumble and full caster progression. Should just remove the tumble.

Master Harper is very strong for bards. A 25/5 bard is always better than a 30 bard, for example.

Some of their cool toys like unlimited bard song and eschew materials could be added as greater Loremaster secret knowledge?

operative/scout is okay if you were wanting to get esf bluff, but you're losing rogue 24 too. very much a sidegrade class

They have rogue affinity so they get full access to grenades plus read tracks and trackless step, +13 bluff and so on. Scout and operative are very superior to ye old 24/6 rogue in the bag of tricks department as you get a lot in those 5 levels and can also take a 5 or 6 full BAB dip. Maybe not so much if you're only looking at PVP since they're more about utility and RP, but still.

Agreed to you both!

To answer the OP here:

These classes are based on specific roleplay and locked as a result. Applications are needed to make sure that people's concepts fit these classes as they fit specifically into the Arelith setting.

also they absolutely need to stay gated behind apps.

Going to just quote myself here, as the entire point of my feedback is a reply to this.

Well as I said above, my feedback is that they shouldn't be tied to Harper or Zhent at all, but be more generic classes. Remove them from faction association (and I agree that Assassin should have the same treatment) and make the faction something you apply for but the class not.

[Snip]

They /should/ be brought more in line with other dips, but my issue is more that mechanical power is tied to specific RP and a specific clubhouse.

If a small group of people have additional power over the rest, that's pretty much the definition of it being unfair to the whole. There is a big difference between private classes and races you have to apply for - you can't divorce the race from the RP. You can't play a Firbolg like a halfling, or play a Vampire that walks around in the daytime and sparkles. You /can/ play a character that knows how to not use material components (eschew materials) without having to ask the Head Harper (or Head Zhent) how to do that.

i admittedly haven't read everything but are people forgetting that investing in the classes also costs you bonus feats?

a mage that goes 27/3 vs 22/5/3, for example, has also lost wizard 23 and 26 bonus feats. it's not quite as feat positive as you think

harper mage is lackluster (spell pen isn't that useful) and eschew is QoL. imo it is the worst of the bunch and often feat negative.

master harper is good (sf/esf perform and lore is strong) but the infini song is just more curse song in pve since lasting inspiration makes songs last so much longer. still not a bad class at all. pairs well with div bards and edr bards.

paragon/enforcer is only useful for niche builds. you spend 2, get 3, but probably lose a bonus feat from your base class. i put together a weird 12 swash 5 paragon 13 wm together back when wm's had more feats but idk many more builds that use it. brycers want to go 24/3/3 for div and tumble and umd vs a 25/5 for example.

operative/scout is okay if you were wanting to get esf bluff, but you're losing rogue 24 too. very much a sidegrade class

hpriest is one of the stronger ones as it gives clerics tumble and cl, allowing them to dip fighter if they want wep specs; however, with umd books, going fighter at the cost of umd hurts. that said, as a dip it's usually feat positive, though things like war priest getting ad abj for free at 23 changes that up a bit. meh for paladins.

i won't say these classes don't need to be looked at (i've called for nerfing them before, and supported hpriest losing disc for example), but they're not quite as strong as some people make them out to be.

I listed two ways that they're pure upgrades already (and mentioned bonus feats):

Let's say you want to play caster cleric with Conj/Trans/Evo foci to implode things.
Standard Caster Cleric:
27cleric/3bard
Feats Preepic: SF/GSF Conj, SF/GSF Trans, Extend, SF/GSF Evo, Empower
Epic: Dragon Knight, ESF Evo, ESF Conj, ESF Trans, Armor Skin, ESF Discipline

Bard in place for UMD/Disc/Tumble

Now you can do....
22Cleric/5Harper Priest/3 Bard
Feats: Preepic SF/GSF Conj, SF/GSF Trans, Empower, Iron Will, Alertness, SF Evo
Epic: Dragon Knight, GSF Evo/ESF Evo, ESF Conj, ESF Trans, ESF Disc, Armor Skin (Free), Planar Turning (free), Extend (free)

Difference?
You get +3 Turning DC, Planar Turning, +5 Lore, +2Reflex, +4 Will, +2 Spot/Listen all for the cost of... 6 lore, 8 leadership, 8 concentration.
---------------------
Standard Deep Rogue: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1L2F ... 7aRjo/edit
19 rogue/6 fighter/5 Harper Scout - Harper scout loses /nothing/ from rogue, as they stack with all rogue abilities including grenades.

They get: No tracks/-track, +5 lore, SF bluff, ESF Bluff, 1 bonus feat (loses one from lower rogue), free cat's grace/invis/eagle's splendor/potion of attunement, +2 reflex, +4 will, 2 save vs mind spells, 2 save vs traps

The cost is one feat (scout gives 2 bonus feats, but you lose one rogue bonus feat, and the two feat cost) and needing disc/lore/bluf/search which you're taking anyways.

So basically a 1 feat cost to not have tracks, get +5 lore, +13 bluff, free stuff, and +6 will save vs spells

You are right that Harper Mage is rather lacklustre compared to the others. However, you do get access to bluff so:
You could do 25wizard/5 harper mage and end up with 30 CL, SF/ESF Spellcraft, Eschew material, ESF Concentration, Greater Spell Pen (not helpful as you noted, especially with 30 CL) and +5 Lore, with balanced epic feats (lose two, gain two).

So in this case it is a trade, you're spending 2 preepic feats (and 4 cross class points in Leadership) for +2 will/+2spot/listen for no spell components, +13 spellcraft, +10 concentration, +5 lore and access to bluff/ride/leadership/use trap.

This is what I'd call an interesting RP option if you want to create a wizard that is more covert (access to bluff) or rides a horse, or just is a better overall spellcaster (more spellcraft/lore) without sacrificing CL.

----------
Paragon/Enforcer doesn't really help in a brycer build as you lose tumble/umd or lose +5 weapons which are both harsh, but:
You could replace it in ranger/AA/paladin builds to not have to be lawful good or evil and come away with an extra feats. You'd end up losing a single damage only in return for +4 will, +2 reflex, +2spot/listen, +4 hp and access to bluff over the paladin version.

Opportunities are what make building characters interesting!

[Zavandar]

harper mage doesn't have disc so a 25/5 wizard/mage is extremely vulnerable. i personally would never do it and i'd prob rather do loremaster if i was forced into a 25/5 spread anyway.

i will concede that a 6/5/19 ranger/paragon/aa has a slight advantage over a, say, 8/3/19 as far as feats go. 10/3/17 is feat equivalent but 1 ab behind iirc due to dropping an aa tier. regardless, div archers have fallen off pretty hard due to windup being very detrimental to an archer, the bspeed nerf to spells/abilities, and the recent shooting while moving nerf. there are also issues with ranger opening up AA, but that's a ranger problem and not a paragon problem

re: hscout

i put together some builds rq to compare a 24/6 to a 19/5/6

24/6


19/5/6


in practice, the major differences are:
19/5/6 has significantly more will (from base class and iron will and lliira's heart)
19/5/6 has a spare epic feat
19/5/6 has bluff feats
vs
24/6 has 2d6 more sneaks (7 more damage a sneak on average)
24/6 has 2 spare pre-epic feats

hscout's extra will is honestly its strongest quality imo since rogue builds tend to lack it, but this can still be mitigated w/ good gear. as far as combat goes, these builds really aren't that far apart.

[Stop. Ninja Time]

Thanks for taking the time to make up a build!

They are very similar to eachother in the end, it's true; but if you're playing a rogue that wants high bluff then arguably the SF/ESF bluff feats are at least +1 feat you'd have taken, leaving you ahead in the feats. So I had (silly me) forgotten the sneak attack dice, it looks like it'd be 2d6 sneak vs lots of will and +3 bluff. The removal of tracks is also very important to rogues, and free get-away potions is just a nice bonus.

harper mage doesn't have disc so a 25/5 wizard/mage is extremely vulnerable. i personally would never do it and i'd prob rather do loremaster if i was forced into a 25/5 spread anyway.

You could still do a dip into ranger for disc if you want, it'd even out in feats just as much as if you did 27/3.

Interestingly, Zhent Mage gives you skill focus Lore, which lets you do a pretty solid 20 wiz/5 zhent mage/5 loremaster which ends up with 28 CL and a lot of RP tricks. Loses two preepic feats and three epic bonus feats, gains two bonus feats and skill focus lore as well as two secrets which replicate ESFs. This effectively makes Loremaster cost 1 feat, and Zhent cost 2 feats; in return you can pick up two additional ESF tricks (or tutor/gathering, etc), better scroll/wand use, and you get all the zhent bonuse of +2 will/+2spot/listen, no spell components, 13 spellcraft, 10 concentration, 3 lore (and 10 from loremaster), and access to a wider variety of skills (even more from loremaster).

Could be a fun super scholar that just knows a ton. The cost is effective one full ESF, but the loremaster makes up for that if you choose something that you aren't really using the SF/GSF bonuses but want the ESF tool.

[DAVEHEART]

Interestingly, Zhent Mage gives you skill focus Lore, which lets you do a pretty solid 20 wiz/5 zhent mage/5 loremaster

this can't get epic spells but yeah you can do 21/5/4. still no disc so not enthusiastic about that

a 22/5/3 wiz/mage/ranger is okay (i've played this before) but it's not really better. the extra lore seems nice but it just saves a tiny bit of gearing since you have 47 lore just for int mod and ranks and you only need 50 for wof.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

As other classes continue to get more updates, it's features are less an issue, namely stuff like planar turning. However stuff like eschew focus shouldnt be a thing unique to a closed faction. I am fine if they get if basicaly free with their other benefits with everyone else paying a feat tax, but making eschew not an option at all kind of taunts like every trueflame who doesnt muster up good RP to be a zhent/harper. Now we can just play warlock for no component infini casting, or just cast more maximized IGMS instead of actually lvl 9 spells. But is kind of a weird cookie/taunt to everyone's face to have such a QoL thing locked behind that.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

I'm not necessarily against classes being gated behind an app, but I do think it's led to other issues besides people having to app to get them.

1) People play them solely for the bonuses, and not the rp involved. This leads to the organization feeling very spread out as opposed to a small cell of harper operatives working together to keep the balance between good and evil shifting too heavily towards the side of evil. I'm sure there have been stretches where it felt like that, but through conversations I know that I am not alone in thinking that passing another harper when playing one felt more like two ships passing in the night than being part of a like-minded organization.

2) You have to plan to be in the harpers on creation because of build considerations more often than not, which eliminates the best way to run these sorts of factions: A player does stuff that attracts the attention of the harpers, the harpers invite them in.

3) you can apply the two above to zhents as well, but really, this should have been an organization that actually operates from the shadows as opposed to an organization that can sometimes work covertly but pretty much everyone knows they exist. Cult of the Dragon, some sort of made up sharran/cyric/mask organization ... Anyways, that's just my opinion and not really relevant.

[a shrouded figure]

I mean… have you tried just applying? The DM’s are not jerks, lol. If you come to then with a reasonable idea for RP that fits into the arelith setting, I highly doubt they turn you away. Probably something as simple as another foot soldier to bolster the ranks of xyz and some background on your character would do the trick. Don’t do it just to do it, roleplay the character.

[The GrumpyCat]

The applications exist pretty much entirely for the roleplay strictures of playing such a class, especially the secresy aspect. They (or at least Harper) have ALWAYS been app locked - or at least have been for as long as I've been playing (about 15 years), back when Harper Scout was pretty much vanilla harper scout from NWN, for the above reason.

If there's an issue with them being overly mechanicaly powerful, then that needs to be dealt with by nurfing them, not by removing any app requirement.

[AstralUniverse]

The applications exist pretty much entirely for the roleplay strictures of playing such a class, especially the secresy aspect. They (or at least Harper) have ALWAYS been app locked - or at least have been for as long as I've been playing (about 15 years), back when Harper Scout was pretty much vanilla harper scout from NWN, for the above reason.

If there's an issue with them being overly mechanicaly powerful, then that needs to be dealt with by nurfing them, not by removing any app requirement.

I think the OP meant that the factions (aka, the Harper and Zhent organizations, their pins, their base, their RP and secrecy) all remain exactly as it is right now. The classes themselves, on a purely mechanical level and without pins/RP/secrets, will be unlocked for everyone, not because they are overpowered (although some play claim they are) but because they offers interesting cookies and tools other characters would also like to use.

[Richrd]

If these classes are so tightly locked away why does it matter if they have a slightly better rewards to level investment ratio?

I mean really, what are the chances that you will actually get into PvP with a Harper or Zhent and that it'll then come down to the itsy bitsy extra feat or two that they get but you don't?