Harpers and Zhents

[Zavandar]

Stuff

I feel like a lot of what you've written here is an opinion that has ignored at least like the last 3 or 4 years of harper activity

There was an open harper thst wasn't threatened with assassination

Harpers can and do redirect without making bold and obvious plays

There was a slew of harpers trying to oust each other and they *did* get punished

Ironically harpers have adhered to your texts more than you think; that they're so subtle you don't know about what they've done behind the scenes is testament to that

Regarding Harper participation in elections:

It is funny if you think Harpers agree on who to vote for



I think a lot of what's been posted is based on presumption and people ought to check themselves because they're actually starting to get a little rude and dismissive of good work that's been done just because they're ignorant of it (by design).

[TurningLeaf]

I don't have one but I actually think it adds flavor that there are these secret organizations that give special training. The fact this servers implementation actually makes the training valuable doesn't seem like a bad thing to me.

[Scylon]

An interesting take on it, for sure. It'd free it up from being locked to a single class, and drive the RP in certain directions. Personally I'd still prefer to just have the classes divorced from any factions, so that you can take your RP where you want. It'd be unfortunate to have to be associated with the Radiant Heart just because you want to play a paragon (see my note on a Hoarian Paragon above); just as unfortunate as having to play a harper for the same reason.

Just on that point:

The idea was, players in certain factions would be able to use the tool to grant per level "training" to under studies/apprentices. You could have double ups as well, so you don't HAVE to be a radiant heart to get paragon, there would be choices depending on what players, or DMs have setup. This will push for RP, as I think keeping them a little controlled is a good thing. If you want to be a paladin or fighter, sure go nuts, but if you want to learn to become a paragon or what ever, you'll need to find a "master" to get trained.

On the same flip side of the coin, you yourself might want to become a master of paragon, or what ever (call it what ever you want IC). That would require a DM ticket similar to how it works now as you would essentially be either creating a new faction, or looking to do a RP that would grant you the ability to train others (maybe like a solo mage who trains one apprentice. (though the apprentice wouldn't be able to then train anyone, that would require DM approval).

I personally think this would be a good way to preserve the current harper/zhent guild as it is now, break up the 8 mini classes into more generic "specialized" classes and open the door for a lot more broad RP. Hells, in the early days the current class of harper scout might only be available to the harper faction, as there isn't anyone else with the IC skills to teach anyone else.

[Duchess Says]

That would only work if getting the class token from a DM was also an option. Relying on other PCs for training is problematic for a lot of reasons-- it's unfair to underplayed time zones, it could dead end if no one is playing the class, most of all it could get very clique-ish and insular if PCs are allowed to lock out other players.

It would be wonderful when it did work out so I'm not saying it's a bad idea... Just can't be the only way.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

Stuff

I feel like a lot of what you've written here is an opinion that has ignored at least like the last 3 or 4 years of harper activity

There was an open harper thst wasn't threatened with assassination

Harpers can and do redirect without making bold and obvious plays

There was a slew of harpers trying to oust each other and they *did* get punished

Ironically harpers have adhered to your texts more than you think; that they're so subtle you don't know about what they've done behind the scenes is testament to that

Regarding Harper participation in elections:

It is funny if you think Harpers agree on who to vote for



I think a lot of what's been posted is based on presumption and people ought to check themselves because they're actually starting to get a little rude and dismissive of good work that's been done just because they're ignorant of it (by design).

I qualified that my personal feedback and experience was a couple of years old in my first post in the thread, and allowed for the fact that it may be out of date. However, my character carried a harper pin for a couple of years, themselves, over the tenure of multiple dm's overseeing the faction. No insult was intended, rather an honest discourse about what my somewhat lengthy tenure witnessed- and while everything was from my own perspective, such a narrow spotlight is necessary during this sort of discussion to not potentially reveal others still in that scene.

Harpers don't always agree who to vote for, but sometimes when they do there's some fairly catastrophic consequences (behind the scenes in OOC, not IC; IC screw-ups are great and the stuff epic stories are made of). On my harper, as a result, I stuck, I'd say about 95% of the time, to only voting in the city in which I was a registered citizen of (and ironically still got pulled aside to be asked about a voting situation by a DM once). I wouldn't be sad to see this mechanic go and implemented in a more story-intensive way somehow, and interfering with this process significantly IC is actually part of the narrative goal I have planned for a character twilight later. Be the change you want to see, right?

Regardless, others seem to share my experience, and I mentioned exceptions in my thoughts, as well as I could without actually mentioning them. ^.^; I'm not saying there aren't individuals and moments worth saying 'this is an example to strive for,' I'm suggesting that message wasn't consistently reinforced, topside or playerside, the way it probably ought to be. I did my best to be objective based on my personal experience, and I don't feel I attacked anyone, so much as I explained how my perceptions of what lore suggests Harpers are differs drastically and not necessarily infrequently from how they're executed on-screen.

If that's not the case anymore, great! However, it did happen, for real life years.

I enjoyed reading this and I agree with many of your points on their philosophy. I also had that strange dissonance with my Harper where my expectations of harper behaviour didn't really match with the regular assassinations that occurred. That said, perhaps I'm missing it, but I don't really see how this pertains to the thread topic of locking/unlocking-and-renaming of Harper classes.

I could take or leave the mechanics of the class, and I'd be fine with them being decoupled from the faction, although the lore nerd in me wants them to remain divine blessings granted by the patron deities of the Harpers in exchange for their devotion to an ideal.

The relevance of what I'm aiming for is about exactly that, their philosophy. Using a word like Harpers in this setting is almost as heavy, or in some cases heavier, than using a name like Elminster or Driz'zt or Wulfgar, or Waterdeep, or Amn. There are consistencies to expect and uphold, and one would presume penalties in failing to uphold them.

To me, this is an argument to leave the classes (Edit: Or rather, the faction itself) token-locked, because even with the process as it is, the things I've previously mentioned still happened, and it's as thematically jarring to me as a paladin sacrificing a life purely for gold or power. If the class weren't token locked, I cannot help but imagine that no matter how much progress the faction has made in the last two years, such occurrences would be drastically more frequent, and create an atmosphere of permissive precedent.

[Scylon]

That would only work if getting the class token from a DM was also an option. Relying on other PCs for training is problematic for a lot of reasons-- it's unfair to underplayed time zones, it could dead end if no one is playing the class, most of all it could get very clique-ish and insular if PCs are allowed to lock out other players.

It would be wonderful when it did work out so I'm not saying it's a bad idea... Just can't be the only way.

I don't agree. As I said, I left wiggle room for things that address this.

Getting a token from a DM is certainly an option as I said if you don't want to join a faction. it's not unreasonable for the DMs to vet this a little, and they don't just blanket deny all but their mates. Trust me on this, I'm a nobody and have been approved for stuff.

Regarding your 2nd point of relying on PCs, again, a non issue based on the my previous point. The idea I presented had flexibility for loan wolf players or people looking to start their own faction. I'm Australian, and play a couple of hours a night when I can. Lately, been stuff all. I have a couple of babies now so yeeeeeah . Anyhoot. I'm what you could say a nobody. I have never been in a major plot, never been in a DM quest, never really interreacted with a major player (knowingly. i have no idea if you are important. sorry ). Most of my RP is a chin wag with people around a fire at skal, or doing dungeons with Randoms, and a few interesting bits of RP with people I have encountered randomly, all fun stuff. I bring this story up because I wanted to highlight the fact I said, If you are a "loan wolf" style who wants access to a specialized class, the DMs might want to vet power gamers vs people who are going to add something to the community/RP.

[Duchess Says]

We're arguing opinions so I won't go on and on but I have been here a long time, been put through the wringer many times and don't believe making access to a class dependent on the whims of other players is a good idea at all. One player's idea of what an operative of the arcane tower might look and act like may be different than others and they could both be right, but if "A" gets there first and doesn't like "B" for whatever reason- including OOC reasons like their seeing their player name and remembering past experience with other characters of theirs or even an argument on the forum, and yes this happens- then "B" is just not going to be able to play that class while "A" is calling the shots. This does happen and we can be as catty and cliquey as the worst middle school kids here. Mentor RP is great when it works but it doesn't work when the Mentor is fickle and arbitrary about who they will accept (and to a degree that's fair, it's their time to decide how to spend, but they shouldn't have the exclusive power to crush ambitions either). Fickleness in private factions isn't a bad thing BTW, I'm not expecting everyone to accept all comers, but we also have public factions you build a character around like Radiant Heart, Arcane Tower/Erudite Arcanum and Sencliff pirates and there just can't be too much power in any one player's hands (or small clique of players) to completely block others.

I believe one reason Harpers and Zhents are DM blocked and not dependent on player recruitment is because as we've seen in this thread different people have different ideas of what Harpers even are or how they should behave and operate. If it was up to PCs to recruit it might be a tighter faction but there would be a lot less opportunity for varied concepts and anyone who didn't catch their attention would be left out in the cold. Likely it would be elf, human and half-elf only if some players had their way for example. Or characters who were discreet wouldn't even get noticed.

[Stop. Ninja Time]

I don't have one but I actually think it adds flavor that there are these secret organizations that give special training. The fact this servers implementation actually makes the training valuable doesn't seem like a bad thing to me.

I agree that it is nice and flavourful that to join the harpers you need specific training. But couldn't you lock the Harper/Zhents to "You need 3 levels in Covert Agent PRC" and leave Operative open to anyone, and still achieve the same flavour?

I do think that's an interesting idea! Though I think way back years ago you had to find a PC to mentor you, it was a nightmare - but that was when we had a lot fewer players (I might be thinking of another server that had/has that though). I think that it's a cool idea as long as there are alternative non-DM ways of achieving it. Like: You can learn from an existing paragon OR you can learn from the radiant heart by joining it. That way there is always an option for all players, but if you don't want to join the RH then you have to go find a mentor.

I am curious how much fun bards have had with learning songs from eachother, which is going to be easier than tracking down the 5 players playing a Covert Agent to learn the PRC. As long as it is not as tedious as learning a language, it could be interesting!

I could take or leave the mechanics of the class, and I'd be fine with them being decoupled from the faction, although the lore nerd in me wants them to remain divine blessings granted by the patron deities of the Harpers in exchange for their devotion to an ideal.

The relevance of what I'm aiming for is about exactly that, their philosophy. Using a word like Harpers in this setting is almost as heavy, or in some cases heavier, than using a name like Elminster or Driz'zt or Wulfgar, or Waterdeep, or Amn. There are consistencies to expect and uphold, and one would presume penalties in failing to uphold them.

To me, this is an argument to leave the classes (Edit: Or rather, the faction itself) token-locked, because even with the process as it is, the things I've previously mentioned still happened, and it's as thematically jarring to me as a paladin sacrificing a life purely for gold or power. If the class weren't token locked, I cannot help but imagine that no matter how much progress the faction has made in the last two years, such occurrences would be drastically more frequent, and create an atmosphere of permissive precedent.

Personally I think it'd be a lot cooler if the RP flavour of the faction, the patron blessings, where less mechanical and more flavourful. Like harpers already have several cool bases to visit, for example; maybe let Radiant Heart folk project a special RH only light, etc. Rather than giving a mechanical advantage for joining a faction, I feel that the only reason for joining a faction should be the RP, and thus the benefits should only be RP.

To repeat myself though, I entirely agree the harper/zhent factions -should- remain token-locked. My entire point is only to make the classes generic so that you do not have to join a specific faction to play a specific class.