Advice on Hide/MS and Use Traps

[Waldo52]

Generally for these skills is it sufficient to grab a couple Epic Skill Focuses or is "gearing up" for them required?

I do have fine elven boots, a cloak of the bassilisk and rogue leathers, but I'm not sure if I'd be considered "stealthy" enough with 38 dex fully warded and I'm even more concerned about my traps. I have 33 ranks in these skills.

If you were a rogue in my position would you start grabbing "skilly" gear or would you consider yourself good enough and start grabbing more practical AC/Save/Ability Score/DR equipment?

[Tabby]

What is your goal, is it stealth vs Enviroment or vs Players, even so are you seeking to be avoided by spot by most players?

[MRFTW]

Greater cave stirges have a listen of around 60, so I try to go for around 80 for safety.

Most places, 33 ranks and being a dexer is enough, but there are some enemies that will always spot you, like slimes.

For other players? There is no amount of stealth that will stop players finding you, even without truesight. There are some good breakpoints to aim for, though. 80 spot and listen difficult to reach and maintain for most builds, but they can push higher for short periods.

When it comes to sneakers Vs spotbots, the higher you can push sneak skills, the better. In essence, you are hoping that the opposing spotter isn't running all of their buffs all of the time.

That said, 99% of the time, 50ish is enough. You have to decide how much you're willing to sacrifice if you want to go really high.

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EDIT: Regarding traps - hard ranks ONLY contribute to damage. (SF/ESF + DEX mod may or may not but the wiki is not clear). Skills on gear etc will only affect the detection DC for players, which starts abysmally low but can get useable if you're willing to spend a lot on it.

[Waldo52]

What is your goal, is it stealth vs Enviroment or vs Players, even so are you seeking to be avoided by spot by most players?

PvP is my passion with this character. I want to find a nice balance between skilly and killy. I won't allow him to be a stealth gimmick who can't fight because he pumped every resource into improving hide/MS. I do want him to be good with stealth though, assuming no crazy dedicated spotters.

[Waldo52]

Greater cave stirges have a listen of around 60, so I try to go for around 80 for safety.

Most places, 33 ranks and being a dexer is enough, but there are some enemies that will always spot you, like slimes.

For other players? There is no amount of stealth that will stop players finding you, even without truesight. There are some good breakpoints to aim for, though. 80 spot and listen difficult to reach and maintain for most builds, but they can push higher for short periods.

When it comes to sneakers Vs spotbots, the higher you can push sneak skills, the better. In essence, you are hoping that the opposing spotter isn't running all of their buffs all of the time.

That said, 99% of the time, 50ish is enough. You have to decide how much you're willing to sacrifice if you want to go really high.

--

EDIT: Regarding traps - hard ranks ONLY contribute to damage. (SF/ESF + DEX mod may or may not but the wiki is not clear). Skills on gear etc will only affect the detection DC for players, which starts abysmally low but can get useable if you're willing to spend a lot on it.

You think 50 being enough applies to other players too?

As for trapping, it's my favorite skill hands down. My current set trap is 33 (ranks) + 14 (dex) +10 (epic skill focus) +5 (25 rogue levels). I briefly get another +10 from activating the rogues cunning ability and also carry scrolls of One With the Land. So basically I range between +62 and +76. I would consider pouring more resources into it if you think that would be worth it, traps are just too fun.

[MRFTW]

You think 50 being enough applies to other players too?

As for trapping, it's my favorite skill hands down. My current set trap is 33 (ranks) + 14 (dex) +10 (epic skill focus) +5 (25 rogue levels). I briefly get another +10 from activating the rogues cunning ability and also carry scrolls of One With the Land. So basically I range between +62 and +76. I would consider pouring more resources into it if you think that would be worth it, traps are just too fun.

"50 is fine, most of the time" is a bit more iffy with players.

The thing is, most players have either 0-10 spot from random bonuses, or 50+ from ranks, potential SF/ESF, and potential gear. There is a big gap in between, nobody randomly gets 30 spot. You essentially need to decide if you want to avoid being spotted by randoms with a lucky skill check, or if you're going to start playing the arms race of seriously stacking stealth/detection.

I'd say 50 would be as low as I'd go in PvE or against none-spotters. As soon as you suspect someone can spot, the sky can be the limit, really.

What's your detect trap DC, with that setup? Really curious, as professional trapper is a build I've always thought sounds so fun. The damage really feels like it's worth the setup time at high levels, I've found.

[Tabby]

What is your goal, is it stealth vs Enviroment or vs Players, even so are you seeking to be avoided by spot by most players?

PvP is my passion with this character. I want to find a nice balance between skilly and killy. I won't allow him to be a stealth gimmick who can't fight because he pumped every resource into improving hide/MS. I do want him to be good with stealth though, assuming no crazy dedicated spotters.

Well.. at character creation there is the 4/4 hide/ms bonus that can be picked, that is equal to 4 levels of hide/ms if you max out the skills.
Its hard to say what a good average is. But lets assume another Rogue has same maxed out Spot/listen, with no gear. Then you need 54 hide/ms to be super sure you not spotted (33+20 = 53; 20 is a max roll spot) this is without the Wisdom bonus and gear the spotter might have.
I made a character that was super geared with Spot, she was able to see almost everyone. Some needed a roll vs hide, but would eventually spot a hidden person.
Its hard to say what is a good place to be. But i say around the 50-60..
Not all invest in spot, but some due.. so you will be spotted by some..

But i guess, in general, a Jack of all trades is master in none..

Ps. My old character could potentially spot a 100 hide skill check. She was also heavy dedicated Spotter.

[MRFTW]

The best way to build for hide/ms in PvP is to figure who you're going to beat.

A standard 8 WIS WM type chap with spot will likely have:

33 ranks
-1 to +5 from WIS
50 from potential gear (25 is a reasonable number without consumables or impacting PvP too much)
+2-4 from potential race

This is your bog standard city guard that's keeping an eye open for pickpockets, lazy disguises etc. He can pop consumables to cap his detection skills with gear quite easily, you can cap hide easily but capping move silently is a bit harder. A PvP built ranger will be more likely to have, as well as the above:

+3 from hard WIS
Up to +6 from favoured enemy?
+10 from ESF Spot
+3 from SF Spot (maybe)

These numbers might be a bit off, and hopefully someone is willing to do the maths more thoroughly. The problem with stealth is that getting spotted on 10% of rolls is the same as getting spotted on 100% of the rolls, most of the time, so min-maxing both stealth -and- PvP viability is the real challenge.

To illustrate further just how silly this arms race can get:

This is my current character. I'm not even level 30 yet. You don't beat this kind of weaponized autism by sneaking around it, you beat it by killing it because it's a one trick pony whose only job is to know WHEN to put true seeing on the WM or AA that's about to ruin your day.