Summons feel a bit strong…

[Aftond]

Powercreep definitely exists with these summons.
I've leveled many, many casters solo.
This is my PvE perspective.

Ancient fire elemental was the pinnacle of fast clearing for a standard caster. (Fire damage reflect and tons of immunities)
Elemental swarm is pretty nice, especially if you have like 4 fire elementals.
Balor was really nice on old warlock, with the blast bonuses buffing the summon. Now, not so much.
Mummy dust is pretty good. Mummies don't do as much dmg as vamps, but survive better. Vamps have a tendency to die off.

Then comes planar conduit. Man, not picking this feat is really shooting yourself in the foot. I've only tried the Slaadi.
It's like 2 balors except 1 is a little weaker(Not as high ab but in PvE it doesnt matter). They are so good that I just quit my necromancer character to play something with conduit instead.

The power difference between this feat and all old summons is wild. I completely understand why some people in this thread defend them, because you don't want to lose a summon that makes PvE this much of a snoozefest.

No, mundanes can not compare to this feat. If you can find me a mundane that has permanent mind immunity, 340 hp, 10 regen, 45 ac 40 ab and critting for 120 at lvl 21 then I'll shut up.

Pls buff undead summons, thanks.

[AstralUniverse]

That used to be the case back when summons were all more like the ancient water elemental. High DR, high sustain but agonizingly slow pve clear. It was actually okay back then. A caster *could* solo but would still very much prefer a party - that's healthy - but now as a caster I dont even want to share my loot with a party when my slaads or epic warlock summon just steamroll everything lol.

So what you're saying here is that you preferred a class balance where only melee could solo efficiently when they weren't in a sharing mood

I dont know how that's what you understand from what I wrote. I literally said "Casters COULD solo" back in those patches. You gotta be trolling me man.

Also, that animal henchman you posted has 25 ab. I dont know what's your argument here with that screenshot. It's a meat-wall basically. I actually wish all summons were more towards that, if I havent made my point clear yet...

[-XXX-]

I dont know how that's what you understand from what I wrote. I literally said "Casters COULD solo" back in those patches. You gotta be trolling me man.

Also, that animal henchman you posted has 25 ab. I dont know what's your argument here with that screenshot. It's a meat-wall basically. I actually wish all summons were more towards that, if I havent made my point clear yet...

Yeah, sorry I don't consider agonizingly slow as viable. Saying that they COULD still do it is quite dishonest.
We're talking about a choice between teaming up with melee or wasting hours of your life doing something extremely tedious, all while melee characters were never faced with such dilemma and could always go "yeah, sorry mage I don't really need you as I already have a haste wand" even back then.

Don't you see how you're basically saying that "It's OK for melee to solo, but casters should either team up with melee or suffer if they choose not to"?


I posted the bear because it can tank Quorusthalatharxyl and any build can get it for a staggering 1 Animal Empathy hard rank investment.

[AstralUniverse]

u know... they also have a spellbook. They dont *have* to stand afk and watch their summon solos. I actually think the ancient eles have good damage but regardless, the fact that you *can* stand afk and solo naked goes to say a lot already.

[Rei_Jin]

Let's be honest; things on Arelith are not balanced so much around PvE, as they are balanced around PvP.

PvE, most content is pretty straightforward, and you can enjoy it with a variety of builds, which is as it should be.

To be PvP viable, stuff has to hit certain numbers.

Summons, as they are, are a distraction in PvP, and not a genuine threat if you're at the top of your game.

[Quidix]

If the issue is that Planar Conduit is too strong at lvl 21 - just delay when people can get it by putting a spellcraft requirement on the feat. Personally I'm not bothered by levelling speed as there are so many other imbalances, but if that's the issue, then this is the solution.

[Ork]

Let's be honest; things on Arelith are not balanced so much around PvE, as they are balanced around PvP.

PvE, most content is pretty straightforward, and you can enjoy it with a variety of builds, which is as it should be.

To be PvP viable, stuff has to hit certain numbers.

Summons, as they are, are a distraction in PvP, and not a genuine threat if you're at the top of your game.

With planar conduit, this is just not true. 2 summons coming at you with high 40s AB is a threat. Planar conduit is useful in PvP and I've seen them bloody great builds that would otherwise shrug off an elemental summon.

[AstralUniverse]

Let's be honest; things on Arelith are not balanced so much around PvE, as they are balanced around PvP.

PvE, most content is pretty straightforward, and you can enjoy it with a variety of builds, which is as it should be.

To be PvP viable, stuff has to hit certain numbers.

Summons, as they are, are a distraction in PvP, and not a genuine threat if you're at the top of your game.

You cant really shrug off these summons. You cant even shrug off 36ish ab vamps because they just stick to you and land hits sometimes when you're flat-footed for a plethora of random nwn reasons, not to even mention conduit with like 10-12 higher ab. Sure, when you're absolutely on top of your game you should probably shrug off a lot of things. Like the entire Rogue class *shrugs* but in reality stuff happens and these summons just smack hard.

[Xerah]

So much misinformation in this post its mind boggling lol. Casters absolutely need gear that is a simple fact.

Casters don't need gear. That's not a fact.

I've leveled multiple caster wizards/clerics to 30, and the extra slots and CON weren't really necessary; DCs don't really matter since you don't really want to draw agro (unless you're a warlock focusing on holds). So, yeah, you can easily get by without; it's silly to ignore equipment and tend to just get Casting Stat + CON + +2 Search on my gear until it needs to be finalized.

Interestingly, all my wizards (except my first character) had >1,000,000 gold before epic levels.

[MRFTW]

With planar conduit, this is just not true. 2 summons coming at you with high 40s AB is a threat. Planar conduit is useful in PvP and I've seen them bloody great builds that would otherwise shrug off an elemental summon.

It also guarantees +2 AB to one of the summons due to flanking.

[RedGiant]

I think a point needs to be reiterated here.

Orks example (on which I did hit 47AB combat log reckoning on PGCC) depends on 30 levels of pure class, access to AoV, Epic Conj, Epic Trans, Planar Conduit, and Empower.

This generally recommends a Cleric / Favored Soul variant. Sorcerers would need the far less optimal Standard Bearers Spear (for a one use, 1/4-1/2 duration AoV), and wizards here would have to take a weapon proficiency to even use that reduced option.

To reiterate, you will be without discipline and completely broken in any PvP scenarios to pull off this one trick. Moreover, as XXX notes, much of your spellpower will be placed against reinforcing this effort, which is, as I said before, a classic one-trick pony affair.

Your are one decent abjuration away from ruin, and if you happen to meet an Oath of Inquisiton Paladin, you are so much toast.

None of this is achievable at 21 because it relies on two epjc foci and a full x5 boost of epic caster level bonuses.

Ergo, as before, this unicorn only exists as the endgame of a broken build.

[Miskol]

I am currently playing a caster cleric with a focus on summons and I can say the weaknesses pointed out by others here are plenty accurate. About 75% of my spell slots are used for long term buffing of the summons, and about another 10% of my spell slots are for short term buffs. To max out the physical stats of both summons from conduit would require consumables. A breach and a WoF would destroy these summons instantly. Is it strong in PvE? Sure it is. But that is all it's good for.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

My rogue had 2 steel weapons, otherwise all the gear I used was random cave loot. You don't NEED good equipment to hit 30. The real cost for making a melee character is getting your starter set of wands, the gold pinch at low levels hurts way more than casters. But once the spell component tax hits, caster expenses are so high that most casters choose to make spell components. Both types of classes have gear expenses, endgame staves give enough good spell slots and a bonus spell that they're a must-have for casters. There's a lot of other caster gear pieces that give a lot of spell slots, anyone wanting to be more optimal probably goes out and gets it. I always make skill monkey builds and never use it, but I'm not going to pretend I'm optimal. I know I'm giving up a lot of casting ability.

This argument is really strange, once a character gets going it's not too hard to earn gold, regardless of being melee or caster. Nit picking about who has it easier during leveling is missing the point of the thread which is about a feat summon able to do end-game content. "What class is best for power-grinding awards" will always exist, and if you nerf leveling summons then everyone doing it will just switch to the easiest melee to speedrun with minimal gear.

[Svrtr]

Literally any melee that can hit 60+ ac can solo Paush if they have any idea what they're doing. It's why certain resource markets are so flooded. On top of this Mindflayers, Gnit, and a few other easy addy nodes are all very simple to solo on a melee in addition to melees being fine at sea which is also good money. The only conceivable casters better than melees at pve are Warlocks and Druids (when meleeing themselves). I really don't know what build is being sought after when all that's needed is 60+ ac and 43+ ab. No specific build is needed as long as you can hit those values and anyone who tells you otherwise simply isn't leveraging items on the server effectively.

Just gotta say

https://i.gyazo.com/588d0d3c4d772fe5d07 ... d5f209.png

That 60 AC is no where near enough to solo paush as a mundane and there is a reason every paush solo run was done with casters with summons

[Quidix]

After some discussion, I'll update my view: the Planar Conduit's AB seems too high compared to other summons (e.g. gate, mummy dust), especially given it's 15/7 DR and regen which makes it incredibly tanky.

I don't think those AB concerns hold true for other summons (except maybe the ranger pet), but open to be proven wrong.

I'd treat how 'cheap' it is to gear a caster as a completely different point to this thread.

[Vangrave]

Lots of takes here and interesting arguments, but I think this entire discussion is kind of floating something very important that governs this entire issue without adequately addressing it in any meaningful way.

DnD 3e was based around having a few encounters per day. Like 8 max. Arelith, and NWN itself, do not take this into account - the number of spells casters have per day is balanced around the pnp number of encounters, but there are a billion diablo style encounters per dungeon instead. Many of the monsters on Arelith have a huge sack of HP. Additionally, caster damage dealing spells do not generally continue to scale in epic levels. Arelith also has resting restrictions.

Because of this, the only viable way for a non melee caster to solo is summons. No amount of "efficient use of spell slots" will get around this. This also contributes to the feeling that casters basically don't do anything in PvE....because they generally don't. Most rounds are spent sitting around doing nothing. Wands aren't powerful enough to use given their gold and xp cost along with their inability to scale into epic content, scrolls suffer from the same issue, and aside from level 9 spells, most encounter ending spells will also harm your summon, so you often don't use them either.

I think any change to summons, beyond maybe dropping the top end of planar conduit's AB back down a bit, needs to take this into account. Any comprehensive change to summons would have to incorporate other changes that gives casters something to *do*. Consumables that refresh spells, bonuses to wands and scrolls based on number of pure caster class levels, *something*.

Beyond that, just a few other comments...

1) Conduit's mostly only good in PvP on chars with access to SR spells, i.e. divine casters. Something to keep in mind. Maybe create two versions of the spell - one for arcane and one for divine casters?

2) Nerfing conduit damage would be ridiculous. The slaad numbers look scary, sure, but they have the same avg damage as undead. The summons that have x3 weapons might have too much burst though, particularly considering their AB.

3) Changes that force casters to rest more often are not going to be enjoyable for anyone except people who have schadenfreude from watching people have to rest. No one wants to sit around and buff multiple times per dungeon, and forcing casters to ride the zero sobriety train even harder would suck quite hard since it means you can't use healing potions.

[Eyeliner]

I mean.. it seems pretty simple.

If you’re melee it’s expensive to level but (if you do it right) you’re a hypercapable monster in PVP at the endgame.

If you’re a caster it’s cheap to level but you’re more likely to be support endgame, or at least at the mercy of hypercapable melee monsters in PVP.

If you’re a warlock you’re making deals with sinister powers to cheat the system. Fast to level and a pretty hypercapable monster. Makes sense, you reality-cheating scumbags.

I don’t see why any of that needs to change. Only real question is if planar conduit is too strong and that discussion has already been exhausted here.

[Wings of Peace]

Literally any melee that can hit 60+ ac can solo Paush if they have any idea what they're doing. It's why certain resource markets are so flooded. On top of this Mindflayers, Gnit, and a few other easy addy nodes are all very simple to solo on a melee in addition to melees being fine at sea which is also good money. The only conceivable casters better than melees at pve are Warlocks and Druids (when meleeing themselves). I really don't know what build is being sought after when all that's needed is 60+ ac and 43+ ab. No specific build is needed as long as you can hit those values and anyone who tells you otherwise simply isn't leveraging items on the server effectively.

Just gotta say

https://i.gyazo.com/588d0d3c4d772fe5d07 ... d5f209.png

That 60 AC is no where near enough to solo paush as a mundane and there is a reason every paush solo run was done with casters with summons

I will tell my stack of 100 screaming keys from my early runs that it doesn't exist then. Apologies.