[Bard Update] Feedback Thread

[In Sorrow We Trust]

Post any feedback, concerns, questions, etc here regarding this post:
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[Nitro]

I'd like to know what specifically song of the heart does, the update notes aren't very clear at all on it. Does it bump a 27 bard up to 28 for the purposes of unlocking song stuff?

[Wethrinea]

First, I love the amount of detail that has gone into reworking bard lately, and this is really icing on a delicious cake.

I have some questions though:

1) Until now, you would get ASF penalty reduction if taking the still spell feat. As I read it, that is no longer needed?

2) What feats are available on the level 10 bonus feat, aside the crafting ones? Lingering song, extra music? SF: Perform?

3) What was this about undead scaling? I could not read more info about it, but does it have to do with the addition of create undead spells?

[In Sorrow We Trust]

I'd like to know what specifically song of the heart does, the update notes aren't very clear at all on it. Does it bump a 27 bard up to 28 for the purposes of unlocking song stuff?

Treat it more or less as a +1 bonus to everything given across the board. For specific songs, it varies, but the bonuses try to follow this rule. Something more specific will be put on the wiki when I get around to it.

1) Until now, you would get ASF penalty reduction if taking the still spell feat. As I read it, that is no longer needed?

Not needed anymore for chain shirt and large shield. This may be subject to change depending on balance implications (some on the team weren't certain freeing up another feat was a good idea), but if so, we will assist with adjustments.

2) What feats are available on the level 10 bonus feat, aside the crafting ones? Lingering song, extra music? SF: Perform?

Just lingering song and extra music. SF: Perform was not considered a bonus feat when I did my tests.

3) What was this about undead scaling? I could not read more info about it, but does it have to do with the addition of create undead spells?

Just means you'll get higher tiers of undead from Animate Dead, Create Undead, Create Greater Undead, etc. with greater amounts of Bard levels.

[Drowble Oh Seven]

Treat it more or less as a +1 bonus to everything given across the board. For specific songs, it varies, but the bonuses try to follow this rule. Something more specific will be put on the wiki when I get around to it.

Does it do anything for a level 30 bard song? I'm already planning my crippling overspecialization.

Also, thank you for enabling my CHA-bard habit.

[Red_Wharf]

One potential hour of bard song bonuses with Unremitting Cadence is too much. Bard song is a very strong buff that shouldn't be treated as something people can just walk around with as if it was on the same level of zoo, barkskin and other passive buffs. I would change that for a fixed amount of bonus rounds instead. 20? 30?

[Kamuizin]

Some questions the reading of the update induced me:

Bard Song and Curse Song now have a separate recharge timer, and Curse Song recharges faster. Recharges should also now be more consistent - you will continue to recharge Song Charges until you are full.

Bard song CD is or was 10 min, if curse song count separate, which is his count down? Is that 10 min cd to recharge 1 charge? Does sf/esf perform and extra song still diminishing 3 minutes on curse song?

Song Charges are now based on your Effective Bard Level. You are going to hear these two terms a lot in this update, so understand what they mean. Song Charges are how many times you can use Bard Song or Curse Song (or other attached effects) until you are out of charges. Effective Bard Level is what statistical tier your Bard or Curse Song will be applied at. You are treated as being a Bard of that level, basically.
[…]
Bard now synergies with a large number of class combinations for the purpose of Caster Levels, Dispel Protection, Effective Song Level, and Song Charges.

This one is related to a side synergy in the shaman page. There is labeled the following synergy:

Bard Class Synergy
1/3 Bard levels count towards Caster Level vs Dispel
Note: Only if Shaman levels are majority in character levels
1/3 Shaman levels count towards Bard Song scaling

Will shaman levels give Song Charges
and Effective Song Level as well?


About palemaster synergy:

Dragon Disciple, Pale Master, Arcane Archer:
-> 1:2 Song Charges
-> 1:2 Effective Song Level
-> 1:2 Bard Spell CL
-> 1:2 CL vs. Dispels

This may be because it was listed with 2 non spellcasting progression classes, but afaik palemaster originally given 1:1 CL vs dispel for each level pick in the class and 1:1 CL DC to necromancy school:

Dispel Resistance - Pale Master levels count as full caster levels for the purpose of resisting dispels.

(from Pale Master wiki).

Bonus Spells - At levels 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 15, 17, and 19 the character gains new spells per day as if the character had also gained a level in their highest caster class. No new spells granted through this ability. This does not grant spells known for spontaneous casters. More details on NWNwiki.
Each level of Pale Master also (unique to Arelith) adds +1 caster level for necromancy spells and every 2 levels adds +1 caster level to non-necromancy spells (level 2, 4, 6, etc).
Caster level works for determining the power and duration of most spells. For example, both Haste and Fear (1 round/level) from a wizard with caster level 17 would last one minute and forty-two seconds. A character with 10 Wizard levels and 7 Pale Master levels would have a total of 17 caster levels for necromancy spells (1m42s Fear) and 13 caster levels for other spells (1m18s Haste).

(from Pale Master wiki).

Does this change nerf that progression? Or it’s just applicable to the 2 non caster classes there (DD and AA)?

Thx for the time spend in this, anyway!

[Good Character]

Just lingering song and extra music. SF: Perform was not considered a bonus feat when I did my tests.

With Extra Music offering 3 more charges and 3 minute reduction, it is frankly the only choice between those two.

Would we be able to see an additional feat added? Possibly a perform-specific (like access to Artist past level 1) one due to the difficulty of stacking perform early on?

EDIT: Oh nvm. Just realized the crafting feats can be taken.

[msheeler]

For the new feat (Song of The Heart) it seems this does nothing for pure bards. Since it is a heavy investment (21st level, Charisma 25+, Unremitting Cadence) to get it would probably be good to put that in the announcements.

[Good Character]

For the new feat (Song of The Heart) it seems this does nothing for pure bards. Since it is a heavy investment (21st level, Charisma 25+, Unremitting Cadence) to get it would probably be good to put that in the announcements.

Curious if it further improves the 30 bard song to something stronger, like +1 for each bonus.

If not, what if the Charisma requirement totally removed or significanrly reduced? Or is it possible that the feat is in preparation for the dirgesinger PrC?

[In Sorrow We Trust]

Does it do anything for a level 30 bard song? I'm already planning my crippling overspecialization.

For the new feat (Song of The Heart) it seems this does nothing for pure bards. Since it is a heavy investment (21st level, Charisma 25+, Unremitting Cadence) to get it would probably be good to put that in the announcements.

Curious if it further improves the 30 bard song to something stronger, like +1 for each bonus.

Yes. It works for 30 bard.

Bard song CD is or was 10 min, if curse song count separate, which is his count down? Is that 10 min cd to recharge 1 charge? Does sf/esf perform and extra song still diminishing 3 minutes on curse song?

Curse Song is one minute faster. All reductions from feats apply. When the recharge cooldown for Curse Song drops to 0, you get one charge of Bard Song back.

Will shaman levels give Song Charges and Effective Song Level as well?

Yes. Shamans were receiving effective Song Level prior to this update. They now also receive Song Charges.

This may be because it was listed with 2 non spellcasting progression classes, but afaik palemaster originally given 1:1 CL vs dispel for each level pick in the class and 1:1 CL DC to necromancy school:
...
Does this change nerf that progression? Or it’s just applicable to the 2 non caster classes there (DD and AA)?

Misphrasing on my part. Palemaster retains its 1:1. I probably threw it in the list for the purpose of clean categorization, but it made things only more confusing. Palemaster loses nothing this patch, but gains:
-> 1:2 Song Charges
-> 1:2 Effective Song Level
-> 1:2 Bard Spell CL

Would we be able to see an additional feat added? Possibly a perform-specific (like access to Artist past level 1) one due to the difficulty of stacking perform early on?

No additional feats are slated to be added to the level 10 bonus feat at this time.

One potential hour of bard song bonuses with Unremitting Cadence is too much. Bard song is a very strong buff that shouldn't be treated as something people can just walk around with as if it was on the same level of zoo, barkskin and other passive buffs. I would change that for a fixed amount of bonus rounds instead. 20? 30?

Previously, 10/15 minutes with a very fast recharge essentially meant that you could have it up all the time anyway and never drop below your maximum charges. Unremitting Cadence does add a lot of duration, but it primarily benefits people who move away from the bard for extended periods of time.

We will watch balance implications closely on this subject, but like with the Arcane Spell Failure change, want to see how it plays out first.

[Lurko]

Loremaster:
-> 1 to each at levels 1 through 4, 1 more at level 5 for a total of 2. 25/5 counts as a level 27 Bard.

I assume there is some typo here because the math dose not work, that sentence as written will not lead to a 2 total.

[In Sorrow We Trust]

Loremaster:
-> 1 to each at levels 1 through 4, 1 more at level 5 for a total of 2. 25/5 counts as a level 27 Bard.

I assume there is some typo here because the math dose not work, that sentence as written will not lead to a 2 total.

me and words are best of friends, as you can see

Yes, it's:

1-4 Loremaster -> +1
5 Loremaster -> +2

26 + 1 = 27
25 + 2 = 27

[Kamuizin]

I believe the previous confusion was with the CL for dispel resistance of LM, their natural bonus that synergy with any caster class.

25/5 bard + loremaster is 27 CL for spell DC and 30 CL for dispel resist, right?

It’s stated “1 to each at levels 1 through 4, 1 more at level 5 for a total of 2. 25/5 counts as a level 27 Bard” and that was abbreviation for:

-> 1:1 Song Charges
-> 1:1 Effective Song Level
-> 1:1 Bard Spell CL
-> 1:1 CL vs. Dispels

I assume 1 of each ar levels 1 through 4 meant the four listed synergies (maybe not in that order), and lvl 5 double them all.

Or maybe i’m the one getting things wrong.

[Xerah]

Oh the whole, great update. It fixes a lot of what I didn't like in playing a bard to 25.

I think it would be nice to see some of the PrC builds that are looking for 20/10 style builds to get to 27 for dispel resistance. 25 just feels a little low for casting from the spellbook.

It's only 10% more buffs getting stripped and maybe it's not the end of the world, but targeting 27 is generally what I look to do at a minimum.

[AstralUniverse]

I dont see Cleric on the div dip list. Will it be added or I can do a div caster bard with a cleric dip and keep the bonus to CL?

[Quidix]

It's a very exciting update. Thank you for the work!

I dont see Cleric on the div dip list. Will it be added or I can do a div caster bard with a cleric dip and keep the bonus to CL?

They don't get saves, which is a pretty big deal, so unclear what the intention is. Most of the AC from DS won't stack as bards get so much dodge already. If cleric gets added to list, then so should Harper Priest and equivalent Zhent class as they can get Turn Undead.

On another note, I do think the length is a concern. Now bards can give up to 1h long song to people, who can then go on to PvE and PvP without the bard (i.e. there is no way to kill the bard to remove the very strong buff).

I'd also consider adding some mechanic to discourage 25 cha + EDR III (not least because it greatly favours some races, like dwarves and gnomes and legacy tieflings / aasimars).

[AstralUniverse]

They don't get saves, which is a pretty big deal, so unclear what the intention is. Most of the AC from DS won't stack as bards get so much dodge already.

To play, for example 27 bard 3 cleric with divine shield (you still get like 9 ac from it, it's a lot) and maybe also get some cool interactions with some domains? I'd just want to know if Cleric is indeed off the list or it's an oversight.

[Quidix]

I'm fine either way and would like a clarification on that too.

For clarity though, it's 7 AC: 5 (song) + 1 (song of heart) + 1 (Mage Armor) + 4 (Haste) + 1 (Bard medium armor bonus) + 1 (Dodge from boots) = 13 Dodge AC

This costs 3 feats to get (PA+DS+Lost epic feat) and requires 13 STR (could re-allocated to con or int) VS the 7AC and domains. Overall? It's a nice option, but not free.

[Kamuizin]

Didn’t saw hexblade in the list of div penalty that negate +3 CL at bard 21. Can get dark blessing there and be still 30 CL for dispel, 4 dips in hex blade before 20 also give 4 apr and access to +6 AC parry skill, if needed or relevant (idk).

[AstralUniverse]

I was under the impression that the restrictions or should we call it anti-synergy is there to give reasons not to play div shield bard. Saves are not an issue for bards regardless and either the design thought is about div battle-bards in which case Cleric is not an issue or it's about div bards in general, casters included, in which case cleric is a div dip just as any. It's simply not a good dip for melee builds and bards get discipline so its not like as if a sorc wouldnt dip cleric cause they need discipline. That's my line of thought. Curious to understand the design perspective on that one, whether or not *caster* div bards are also problematic, and if I can cook a singing acolyte for ceremonies kind of concept.

[In Sorrow We Trust]

We're still deciding whether we want to give cleric and hexblade the same treatment. I'm neutral about the subject myself.

[In Sorrow We Trust]

The team has chosen to treat Cleric and Hexblade as divine dips, so they won't receive the +3 dispel protection bonus on 21+ bard.

[R0GUE]

Will we be needing and/or getting a respec when Part 2 of the update comes out? Any ETA on part 2?

[In Sorrow We Trust]

Will we be needing and/or getting a respec when Part 2 of the update comes out? Any ETA on part 2?

Everything with hefty charisma requirements has been implemented already. Part 2 is the Dirgesinger PRC. Dirgesinger opens up some really niche options for those interested in it.



If you're built in a way that satisfies you, you'll be fine, even if you end up wanting to take it. Unless you're going for a build that isn't really possible to do right now. If you want to specialize in Dirgesinger, the main stat you'll want is Charisma.