Cleric Domain/Path Feedback Thread

[RedGiant]

As discussed in other threads, is there a mechanism for old healer path clerics to divest themselves of the path when this goes live?

They will all automatically lose the old healer path and can retake the path again in the form of feats at the 2nd level of cleric. All healers should also have their original proficiencies refunded.

You are a beautiful, beautiful man.

Just saying.

[Distant Relation]

I'm quite pleased by the changes to healer path that just got announced a moment ago.

[Edens_Fall]

Does Cloistered Path now get small shield use automatically or do we still need to burn a feat on Shield Proficiency and then only use small shields?

[Kuma]

Hi,

Could you consider moving being forced to choose at path to level 3 instead of level 2? Currently, if you log out at level 1 you maybe lose all your stuff and at 2 you need to choose a path which details are not even very clear and may be the wrong choice for your toon.

Cloistered for instance, as far as I can tell, does not mention you are unable to use shields, but you find out when you are forced to choose path at 2. This enables people who would like to take their time to relevel to just get level 2 and log out (since you are forced to relevel anyway), and potentially limits the number of people who request from the DMs to choose path over again. Thank you for your consideration, have a nice day.

as someone with a pile of clerics in my vault i would Sincerely appreciate this

[Kenji]

Warpriest will be gaining the following:

• +3 CL vs dispel at 21+ cleric levels
• -2 DC to all spells
• No longer obtain Arcane Defense: Abjuration at level 23

Warpriests will not be forced to relevel, the feat will automatically be removed.

Developer Commentary:
Warpriest was gaining too much and losing too little in comparison to a vanilla battle cleric. The removal of Gate from a warpriest's arsenal along with these changes will ensure that Warpriest and Original Battle Cleric are played and built differently.

I understand the +3 CL vs dispel is no small buff as Warpriests are still capable of casting 9th level spells compared to other half-casters who receive the same bonus such as Paladin, Ranger, or Hexblade.

But the +3 CL vs dispel along with AD: Abjuration should encourage warpriests to multiclass into other classes, which can encourage different builds coming from Warpriest.

Therefore, something needed to be taken away from Warpriest in this case, and it was -2 DC from all spells to simulate their reduced efficacy in casting divine spells (the offensive ones such as SoV, at least, self buffs and heals should still remain the same)

These numbers will be adjusted pending more feedback.

Evangelist will be getting duration and scaling area size buff to Bless, Aid, and Prayer (if applicable) similar to what AoE heals get from Healers.
> Bless, Aid, and Prayer are auto-extended (doesn't stack with Extend Spell, must cast from spellbook and not items)
> Area size now scales with Cleric level up to twice the area size with 30 cleric levels

Healer's Divine Favor will now maximize all healing spells:
Cure Wounds
Healing Circle
Heal (damages Undead and put them to 1hp)
Healing Sting
Mass Heal (damages Undead and put them to 1hp)

Clerics will be getting their bonus feat for path selection moved from 2nd level to 3rd level cleric.

Something to note due to this change:
Characters multiclassing into clerics during the epic levels (Favored Soul 21 -> Cleric 3 for example) will not be able to select eligible cleric bonus feats (great smite, ESF, armor skin, auto meta magic, etc) if cleric level is selected during a general epic feat level due to engine limitation.

Developer Commentary:
The bonus feat is a finicky thing, the epic feat selection for cleric had to be moved to 4th level or higher cleric in order to ensure the 3rd level bonus feat is guaranteed to be Path choices only. When it was still level 2, it's possible to circumvent the "unable to choose epic feat" by timing the first cleric levels right after a general epic feat, so that the 3rd level of cleric will land on another general epic feat where no restriction would apply.

With this shift from 2nd to 3rd level bonus feat just for Path feat alone, classes that plan to dip into cleric (Favored Soul or Hexblade) may be affected. This can currently be circumvented by taking the cleric levels earlier than epic levels (which is usually what hexblades do) but can result in a loss in BAB (for Favored Soul, this is likely circumvented via Divine Power).

If there exists enough feedback about this bonus feat shift in levels for path selection impedes epic level feat selection, it will be reverted back to the 2nd level.

[Paint]

I'm a little confused about the Favored Soul/Cleric interaction here. FS levels are supposed to count for Cleric levels for the purposes of cleric path progression if you dip cleric and choose a path, right? I assumed this meant that you'd get the feats, etc, but on PGCC right now at least, this doesn't seem to be the case, but I can equally see that being intentional as not intentional.

[Duchess Says]

I'm a little confused about the Favored Soul/Cleric interaction here. FS levels are supposed to count for Cleric levels for the purposes of cleric path progression if you dip cleric and choose a path, right? I assumed this meant that you'd get the feats, etc, but on PGCC right now at least, this doesn't seem to be the case, but I can equally see that being intentional as not intentional.

Same. I didn't see any benefit on the PGCC for taking the a cleric path on an FS. Also FS still doesn't benefit from cleric domains, right? What exactly is the intent of this if you don't mind dumbing it down for we who don't enough time to experiment?

[Kenji]

I'm currently doing a few fixes that may or may not fix the FS/Cleric interactions, pending more internal tests on my end.

In the meanwhile, the intention in regards to FS/Cleric is this:
Favored Soul will only gain Cleric path bonuses under these conditions:

1. Must have Cleric levels present
2. Path must not be Path of the Cleric

The bonuses they should receive:

• CL for their spells
• Path feats
• Domain interaction with cast spells (not from Items for some, some applies to Items)
• Path interaction with cast spells (like Evangelist with Bless/Aid/Prayer, Healer with heal AoE, etc)

Bonuses they shouldn't (or can't) receive:

• Domain spells
• Spontaneous cast

If you aren't receiving some of the intended bonuses, please make a detailed bug report with your class levels, the path you took, level progression, and any details you can think of in this bug report thread:
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=36471

[Exordius]

Given they are basically sub-domains linked to the same element, giving storm and cold access to elemental swarm at lv 9 would be nice and thematically appropriate i think yes?

[Skeletor]

Sorry if this has already been considered, but this change got me thinking

+ Death Domain
Empowers healing spells if target is Undead
Empowers inflict/circ of doom/harm if target is not Undead (harm only gains 20% extra damage)
Circle of Death HD uncapped (like Palemaster/Necro Specialist)
Gains Palemaster's Death touch as Domain Power (kills Undead instead of healing them)

Palemaster death touch is balanced for a prestige class, as in, you can't take 30 levels in it. If I remember correctly, allowing a cleric to use all 30 levels would allow a ridiculously high DC and be akin to allowing an instakill murderhobo divine domain running loose upon the realms. So just saying, it should be balanced for 30 total levels.
Sorry if you already did, I am just concern!

[Good Character]

The palemaster version is on average hitting a DC of 40 (17 base + (6 epic levels / 2) + 14 INT mod + 6 necro focis).

A cleric, assuming the INT/CHA modifier scaling was untouched but cleric count per 2 after 10 levels and the cleric bumped CHA to 14 base for something like divine shield and 3 tumble dip, hits an average of 43 (17 base + (16 'epic' levels / 2) + 12 INT or CHA mod + 6 necro foci).

Assuming this is how it works, it would make for hiliarious shenanigans. Decently high-AC with a 5 minute cooldown nuke (assuming Touch is a "domain power").

[Exordius]

The new domain changes are only preset on the main servers, they are not on the pgcc yet. Can they be added so we can experiment without having to burn domain tokens IG? Also just noticed, i had 2 domain tokens before the update and now i only have 1?

[Kenji]

The new domain changes are only preset on the main servers, they are not on the pgcc yet. Can they be added so we can experiment without having to burn domain tokens IG? Also just noticed, i had 2 domain tokens before the update and now i only have 1?

I manually set the domain tokens every time domains are updated. This way it discourages "banking" of these tokens and if the tokens aren't used after a while, they expire.

Palemaster death touch is balanced for a prestige class, as in, you can't take 30 levels in it. If I remember correctly, allowing a cleric to use all 30 levels would allow a ridiculously high DC and be akin to allowing an instakill murderhobo divine domain running loose upon the realms. So just saying, it should be balanced for 30 total levels.
Sorry if you already did, I am just concern!

This is certainly a valid concern but here's the actual calculation:
DC 17 base + Intelligence or Charisma modifier + Necromancy Spell Foci (2 per tier) + Epic PM level modifier

A cleric without palemaster levels would likely just have 17 + 13 (charisma mod) + 6 (esf necro) DC at best, which is still pretty decent.

[yoimtide]

With all these much appreciated domain tweaks, I think it could be great to have some more QoL perks that could tie in with sailing. Storm domain doesn't have anything at the moment so an example could mean giving them the ability to auto succeed against storm checks when sailing.
Air could be a 5% boost to sail speed?
Things like that could add some nice flavor and offer interesting ways to supplement not having a bard with a sea shanty.

[Kenji]

Some time has passed since the paths are introduced. I am interested in any feedback pertaining to Cleric Paths and what suggestions or adjustments the players have in mind that can improve cleric path experience in general.

Keep in mind that the design philosophy behind the paths remains as such:
The mechanical power of the paths should not surpass that of vanilla clerics but remain a thematic choice for players who envision their clerics differently than what a vanilla cleric can provide mechanically.

[Kenji]

Some time has passed, and I am still interested in any feedback pertaining to Cleric domains and what suggestions or adjustments you all have in mind that can improve cleric domains in general.

Keep in mind what I'm asking for isn't providing the cleric domains a mechanical boost, but changes, additions, or removals that may make certain domains more appealing without overbuffing them.

[Arienette]

My thoughts on Warpriest Path is that you lose too much for what you gain.

No summoning at all is pretty steep.

I understand that there has to be some downside to balance the benefits. I’m not sure if this is even possible, but perhaps they could lose EDK/Conduit/Gate but keep summon creature.

This would keep their PvP power toned down but still allow them the classic battlecleric PvE experience of tag teaming with their summon.

[IncorrigibleNev]

I think domains are overall in a good spot with all the changes, filling out the bonus abilities and spell interactions would be nice, but I think overall they're fine. Some ideas I had though:

Water: +Sail
Earth/Air: +Climb
Illusion: Kind of "eh" compared to Trickery. Maybe give it the Loremaster secret of Illusion with 21 cleric levels?

[IncorrigibleNev]

Some time has passed since the paths are introduced. I am interested in any feedback pertaining to Cleric Paths and what suggestions or adjustments the players have in mind that can improve cleric path experience in general.

I'm not going to really comment on this from a mechanical power perspective, because I don't feel really qualified to do so. I can only speak from the perspective of what if "feels" like as a player when interacting with these systems, mainly healer/cloistered paths.

The biggest thing for me is this: I initially made my cleric heavily WIS focus before the paths because 1. I like the archetype of the priest vs. the battle cleric and 2. I hate the battle cleric wind up. The "caster cleric" paths simply introduce the experience of the battle cleric to the caster variant. I would rather divine favor/power lost their ability to be self-cast and instead turn into some kind of single target/party buff (obviously not 1:1) as a caster cleric, just anything else than what is now. It's very cool how these two spells have been scripted, it just doesn't translate into a good gameplay experience to me.

Succinctly: Having to pre-cast to cast does not feel good.

Secondarily, I feel like the biggest elephant in the room regarding clerics dealing damage with their spells is NEP. One spell can completely negate the primary source of caster cleric damage and on top of that it is very far down the breach list. I'd like to see NEP either become flat DR against negative energy damage, maybe scaling with caster level or only granting damage immunity when hard cast.

[Good Character]

I think warpriest cleric is in a solid position. It's certainly wind-up heavy as battle cleric has always been minus sometimes not having to use divine favor and divine power due to its lengthier durations.

My only gripe is one of its main attractive features, divine smite, is semi-supported (for a lack of a better word). Personally think Extra Smite should come free to help encourage people to take the Good or Evil domains as the Good and Evil domains aren't frankly good themselves as the spells they're offered are in already bloated spell slots.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

I took cloister path for free scribe scroll. I've never used any of the other features of the path because it does nothing for me. I have illusion and protection domains currently. Any domain that primarily gives buffs gets very little use out of cloister path, where the divine power synergy makes it work better with offensive spells where you'd be casting a lot of something in a short timeframe (like harm).

[Party in the forest at midnight]

Illusion: Kind of "eh" compared to Trickery. Maybe give it the Loremaster secret of Illusion with 21 cleric levels?

I'm playing an illusionist and so already have ESF: Illusion. It would be nice if the illusion domain gave benefits that would synergize with that too. Or even give some sort of bonus to bluff/perform.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

Illusion: Kind of "eh" compared to Trickery. Maybe give it the Loremaster secret of Illusion with 21 cleric levels?

I'm playing an illusionist and so already have ESF: Illusion. It would be nice if the illusion domain gave benefits that would synergize with that too. Or even give some sort of bonus to bluff/perform.

I don't get this. If you are a caster cleric, illusion domain gives you the spell that every illusion mage wants. If you are a battle cleric, they both get the same two spells that matter to a battle cleric, improved invisibility and displacement for when things are tossing around purges.

As to your question, Kenji, I think the spell slots are about where they should be but to state the obvious it would be nice to see the blanks on bonus abilities and spell interactions filled in. Beyond that I think there is a good mix of options for every type of cleric, and while some combos are better than others for particular types (moon + war great for a battle cleric, mind + strength great for a cloistered, illusion/mind great for an evangalist) I feel like you can certainly do many variations of that and still be as strong.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

You're missing the point. They're proposing that illusion domain gets the epic spell focus illusion benefit of creating illusion clones, as well as the greater spell focus benefit of being able to project illusions, like what loremasters who take the secret of illusion get. Clerics who take epic spell focus in illusion very likely also have the illusion domain. Therefore it would be nice if the illusion domain got something that wouldn't be redundant for clerics who have epic spell focus illusion. Or if they did get something redundant, if there'd be an additional benefit to the domain that epic spell focused illusionists could benefit from as well.

The trickery domain gives imp invis and displacement, while also giving benefits towards a lot of skills AND giving access to the Rogue's Cunning spell, as well as camoflage. It's a significantly better choice than illusion, and if I wasn't playing an illusionist I'd be using it. This is why the request to add more things to the illusion domain.

[stoneheart-]

I have very few complaints about the domains as is, but I have recently played a cleric.

I would suggest that moon domain get a scry notification (just the "you are being scried" blurb, not the actual ability to scry), since many of the deities that canonically get moon domain are deeply connected to divination. If the cleric is already a diviner, perhaps the cooldown of their scrying could be reduced (?) I would also suggest that water get more.. water-themed spells rather than stuff like stinking cloud, acid fog, and horrid wilting. I'm not sure why a water domain has gas spells.

Also, spread the cool ward effects around to appropriate domains. For one, this is cool from an aesthetic standpoint, and for two, it would make warlocks less identifiable.