Rogue style classes, tracking, and poisons

[Retratserif]

It's been in my mind to ask about Rogue classes and Tracks. Being ones that sneak and all, something similar to Trackless Step per combined Rogue would be helpful. Even a boost to track as Rogue is linear to Ranger on the typical road to assassin.

Then onto the Use Poison Feat and DC increase. Having a boost to Poison check for Rogue Classes across the board... Other than ones that currently already have it would go along with general RP of the classes.

Pure Rouge's do gain a great amount of situational DPS with sneak attack. Though they gain nothing in the way of helping poisons be more effective with checks for late game content and pvp.

Having played SD for some time, I notice that solo I'm the most effective. Which is great when no one is about. But loses its shine when you add a guard. Typically the one with Guard will be more survivable than the Shadow. Almost making the Shadow only there to pick up gaps in the guard. Shadow really doesn't do enough damage and that's even if it hits, being that the AB is very low.

Not sure what a good balance would be... With SD DPS. Just less than most other melee classes.


But having functional player created poisons, that can pass DC on all Rogue classes I think would help cover a little off the gap in end game PvE and PvP in general.

[Sincra]

They already get a bonus to tracking, at 1:2 levels for hiding their tracks. They are also more skill capable so they don't need the bonus to seeing track details nor do they warrant it as say ranger or assassin.
Ontop of that they get bonuses to spot as they level (keen senses).

http://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Investigate

Rogues get grenades, poisons are often just fishing for a 1 on hit anyway so it's not something they would benefit from, I'd argue if you wanted poisons but not assassin you can take blaggard (blackguard).

Edit: also having just read your other post are you asking for this because your app got denied for assassin?

The shadow is meant to reduce damage you take and enable sneak attacks.

If your poisons are broken it may just be old ones that have a snipped tag, try storing them then making new ones.

[Retratserif]

I want assassin. Bad. Just not getting approved. To have dual blades and advise m Shadow Dancer, there is not enough room to get Blackguard too. At least on my character. But I didn't want Blackguard.*Shrugs*

Then you for clearing some on that up. I still feel that all Rogue classes should have a higher DC for Poisons. Nades are nice, but are very minimal with Shadow Dancer.

[Hazard]

Rogue grenades could use a DC increase to keep up with all the power creep.
A lot of the grenades are useless too and their effects pretty pathetic.
Some are incredible and very useful, like holy grenades.
Disjunction affect your party, and as a rogue you're basically never solo in pvp/pve so these become useless.
Stun grenades have a low DC only last 1 round (and you are locked into a round after using them, so basically you both lose 1 round) and affect yourself and party so, useless.

If rogues got poison DC at a 1:2 rate of assassins, just like for tracking .. I think that would be pretty cool and fair.
And if assassins got a 1:2 rate at grenades (but couldn't make them) that would be cool too. That way you can have the ninja assassin fantasy of having smoke bombs and stuff, but you'd need to trade with a rogue to get the stuff you want. Poison is a pretty sterotypical rogue thing to use and it does feel a bit weird having no significant mechanical advantage with poisons as a rogue.

[Waldo52]

Given all the power creep, please give us higher DCs and cool shiny things?! Paths please.

[garrbear758]

If the issue with the grenades accounting for spellcraft is fixed they really don't need higher dcs.

[Ork]

Sadly, spellcraft still effects them.

[AstralUniverse]

Rogue is in a terrible spot right now.

This is a result of a slow and measured shift from heavy dex meta into heavy str meta. Credit to several different updates in that regard: The addition of tower shield and full plates +4, the anti-synergy between div shield and e-dodge which actually happened because of assassins and SDs ironically, and the bombs/powder's DC. Rogue specific grenades were pretty much *almost* useless, because as said above, they still respect spellcraft due to coding limitations (some of their effects are from spells who only come with spell.2da scripts). So here we are. Rogue is a pretty sad support class.

[Waldo52]

Rogue is in a terrible spot right now.

This is a result of a slow and measured shift from heavy dex meta into heavy str meta. Credit to several different updates in that regard: The addition of tower shield and full plates +4, the anti-synergy between div shield and e-dodge which actually happened because of assassins and SDs ironically, and the bombs/powder's DC. Rogue specific grenades were pretty much *almost* useless, because as said above, they still respect spellcraft due to coding limitations (some of their effects are from spells who only come with spell.2da scripts). So here we are. Rogue is a pretty sad support class.

I'm glad to see others agree.

I've seen posts from players who claimed to have practically soloed rogues all the way to 30 but my own experience is that they're almost a flavor class.

I've done writs as a rogue with my strength ranger friend, both of us two weapon wielders of the same level. My buddy out-damaged me even when I was able to get off my sneaks. My AC was way higher, but his HP was so good that it wasn't a big deal and I had to live in fear of random crits.

If we were a higher level I would've had crippling strike, somewhat less terrible grenades, epic dodge, etc. But these things only go so far.

[AstralUniverse]

I've seen posts from players who claimed to have practically soloed rogues all the way to 30 but my own experience is that they're almost a flavor class.

I've also seen them being solo to 30 before. Mostly by isolating mobs with Darkness wands. It's not that hard to do, it just tedious and agonizing.

[Xerah]

I did it a while ago now with help from hirelings (this was before leadership) and used darkness when necessary. It was the standard 24/6 build (though the first half was a rogue/WM before I rebuilt it)

[Cabarcos]

I don't know how it will be at the hardest level 30 content, the more dangerous places/writs, but the only character I've leveled to level 30 is 24 rogue/6 ranger and I usually wander alone.
It's not an optimal build, but even so, it's pretty powerful. You just need to use your strong points, like with any class.
I've never used darkness scrolls or wands of darkness for example, and traps and grenades can be very useful.

Some of the things I always miss in a rogue are tracking and poisons, and you get them with the ranger levels.

[Waldo52]

I've seen posts from players who claimed to have practically soloed rogues all the way to 30 but my own experience is that they're almost a flavor class.

I've also seen them being solo to 30 before. Mostly by isolating mobs with Darkness wands. It's not that hard to do, it just tedious and agonizing.

Agreed.

Don't get me wrong, I think it's kind of childish to expect perfect balance. There should be classes that are slightly better for PvP than PvE and they should suffer accordingly, it's a legitimate choice with a lot of flavor potential. But soling a rogue really is "agonizing" like you said and the payoff (being good against certain bosses and other players) just isn't that substantial.

I've had some incredibly brutal kills with trap/flashbang/sneak attack but not as many as you'd think. The best laid plans can often be thwarted by the fact that your enemy clicked "druid" or "spellsword" at character creation and you can lose thousands of gold for the privilege of fighting and injuring the enemy before you die.

[Hazard]

I've had some incredibly brutal kills with trap/flashbang/sneak attack but not as many as you'd think. The best laid plans can often be thwarted by the fact that your enemy clicked "druid" or "spellsword" at character creation and you can lose thousands of gold for the privilege of fighting and injuring the enemy before you die.

This hurt me because it's true.

[Hazard]

If the issue with the grenades accounting for spellcraft is fixed they really don't need higher dcs.

This is true, but I don't think it can be fixed and it's been years.