All skills are class skills for bard: a mistake.

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xf1313
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Re: All skills are class skills for bard: a mistake.

Post by xf1313 »

msterswrdsmn wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 10:02 pm Since a lot of this seems to revolve around quarterbreaking...

Bards have always been feat and skill needy builds. How feasible is to make a quarterbreaking-style bard build and NOT utterly cripple yourself?
Some one did the math for me so I don’t have to do it, all in all, that’s a singing thief. Super easy to kill in pve, too low cha for the bard feats. Unless that character is raised in a group of thiefs and steal for living, what’s there to play?

Why would everyone waste their precious play time to make a bard to beat 127 dc? Now people store precious items in vault anyway. Many small quarters only hit like 40 dc, any dex rogue is good enough. And why is QB such an issue at all? If people break the rules, ban them, problem solved.
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Re: All skills are class skills for bard: a mistake.

Post by La Villa Strangiato »

xf1313 wrote: Wed Apr 20, 2022 7:56 am
Some one did the math for me so I don’t have to do it, all in all, that’s a singing thief. Super easy to kill in pve, too low cha for the bard feats. Unless that character is raised in a group of thiefs and steal for living, what’s there to play?

Why would everyone waste their precious play time to make a bard to beat 127 dc? Now people store precious items in vault anyway. Many small quarters only hit like 40 dc, any dex rogue is good enough. And why is QB such an issue at all? If people break the rules, ban them, problem solved.
You must be new here. You can merely take a look down more of the feedback thread to find people's many, many grievances with quarterbreaking.

At a glance, as a player who has played here for over a year, quarterbreaker groups tend to have a month where they're active, stealing from everyone and everything and demanding copious amounts of money from literally everyone they target, then they get slapped by DMs and fade into utter obscurity. It's what inspired the recent rule change to only steal one item every 24 hours. Like the broken statue in the desert, nothing remains of a once-hubristic conqueror who can just wait until 5am to break into someone's house when they're offline and pilfer their RP fixtures. Ultimately, people have been proven to be unable to behave themselves and use responsibility with their great power repeatedly.

As for why people do it? I don't know, I like being more than a one-trick pony with my builds. Perhaps for the simple joy of "number go up". And let's be real, breaking into people's houses (uh, in-game) is extremely fun.

If you have a dedicated friendgroup to level with (which a lot of us do, it's not even a bad thing to have), a quarterbreaker bard can be leveled in about three weeks. I know people who have leveled in less, with their groups, which is also fine. I don't know what math you did, but bards getting every skill makes it a lot easier for a pure, moderately-mechanically viable bard to hit that sweet sweet 127DC. They don't even have to dip into rogue!

Ultimately I'll redundantly voice my agreement again that bard shouldn't have all class skills, because that's already a thing that specialist has. It's an entirely superfluous feature that adds too much of a hint of power creep for my comfort.
xf1313
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Re: All skills are class skills for bard: a mistake.

Post by xf1313 »

You must be new here. You can merely take a look down more of the feedback thread to find people's many, many grievances with quarterbreaking.


As for why people do it? I don't know, I like being more than a one-trick pony with my builds. Perhaps for the simple joy of "number go up". And let's be real, breaking into people's houses (uh, in-game) is extremely fun.

Ultimately I'll redundantly voice my agreement again that bard shouldn't have all class skills, because that's already a thing that specialist has. It's an entirely superfluous feature that adds too much of a hint of power creep for my comfort.
[/quote]

Thank you for your reply, actually I agree the point where specialists are made useless...because yeah, they are. Any class dip is better than it, even before the bard update. I can understand the reasoning here, bard become the better version of specialists, why not just get rid of specialists and give commer all class skills...since commer is the only class that want to take specialists.

Breaking in can be fun, most of the doors are so locked and I wonder what inside looks like. What one bard can do (since they would be with a group anyway), a bard+rogue certainly can do better without really sacrificing the bard. Many arguments made before you make me feel, bard is only a problem because they can beat dc 127...that somehow bring old memories like “Druid must go because monolith shape is op. hips must go because it is op, planner conduct must go because it gets better than my melee” LOL
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Re: All skills are class skills for bard: a mistake.

Post by -stick- »

xf1313 wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 3:29 am Many arguments made before you make me feel, bard is only a problem because they can beat dc 127...that somehow bring old memories like “Druid must go because monolith shape is op. hips must go because it is op, planner conduct must go because it gets better than my melee” LOL
Its always been like that :D

but id still take away open lock from bards just to make this stop :lol: , and prevent from doodle dex bards from ever being created :lol:
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Re: All skills are class skills for bard: a mistake.

Post by AstralUniverse »

godhand- wrote: Wed Apr 20, 2022 3:52 am
msterswrdsmn wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 10:02 pm Since a lot of this seems to revolve around quarterbreaking...

Bards have always been feat and skill needy builds. How feasible is to make a quarterbreaking-style bard build and NOT utterly cripple yourself?
You're putting a minimum of 7 feats into skill focii.

It is completely gimped and unable to do anything beyond quarter break.

Its constitution will be 10-12.
Its strength will be 8-10.

Its basically a commoner with handy dandy lockpicking skills who can sing, kind of.... and cast some spells.... So not really a commoner... Just a weak bard.
What game are you playing? They got a lvl 30 bard/curse song + lasting inspiration. Saying they cant do anything beyond quarterbreaking is just flat out false. Comparing them to commoner is flat out none realistic.
KriegEternal wrote:

Their really missing mords and some minor flavor things.

Lost in the dark
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Re: All skills are class skills for bard: a mistake.

Post by Lost in the dark »

Playing a CHA bard at the moment in my limited free time and thoroughly enjoying it. Damage is pants but great with company. From a fun perspective I am really enjoying the jack of all trades aspect being able to be a little bit good at everything. I totally get that certain skills can be cranked to ridiculous level but just saying the cure shouldn't take the fun away from all the folk who don't do that.
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Re: All skills are class skills for bard: a mistake.

Post by godhand- »

AstralUniverse wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 12:05 pm
godhand- wrote: Wed Apr 20, 2022 3:52 am
msterswrdsmn wrote: Tue Apr 19, 2022 10:02 pm Since a lot of this seems to revolve around quarterbreaking...

Bards have always been feat and skill needy builds. How feasible is to make a quarterbreaking-style bard build and NOT utterly cripple yourself?
You're putting a minimum of 7 feats into skill focii.

It is completely gimped and unable to do anything beyond quarter break.

Its constitution will be 10-12.
Its strength will be 8-10.


Its basically a commoner with handy dandy lockpicking skills who can sing, kind of.... and cast some spells.... So not really a commoner... Just a weak bard.
What game are you playing? They got a lvl 30 bard/curse song + lasting inspiration. Saying they cant do anything beyond quarterbreaking is just flat out false. Comparing them to commoner is flat out none realistic.
Neverwinter Nights Enhanced Edition on Arelith.

Its basically a commoner with handy dandy lockpicking skills who can sing, kind of.... and cast some spells.... So not really a commoner... Just a weak bard.
Cortex wrote: Addendum, the immediate above post by godhand is wrong in about every aspect, as were most of his other posts.
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Re: All skills are class skills for bard: a mistake.

Post by Ork »

full cl, top tier song -1, lots of skills. but at least you're sticking to your strawman despite being wrong.

Let's go ahead and lock this. It's just getting circular.
AstralUniverse
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Re: All skills are class skills for bard: a mistake.

Post by AstralUniverse »

It's really disheartening that once again some people are trying to have a logical math-based discussion about what is or isnt healthy about the server while other people spit out random, false and biased arguments who cant hold as much as a gram of sand.

This thread can indeed be locked and we wont miss any new important data. This ultimately boils down to how soon bards will become a problem that needs to be nerfed, but it may take a while if not enough people play bards for it to be a problem (see: paladin).
KriegEternal wrote:

Their really missing mords and some minor flavor things.

Babylon System is the Vampire
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Re: All skills are class skills for bard: a mistake.

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire »

Ork wrote: Fri Apr 22, 2022 3:46 pm full cl, top tier song -1, lots of skills. but at least you're sticking to your strawman despite being wrong.

Let's go ahead and lock this. It's just getting circular.
"The straw man is a fallacy in which an opponent's argument is overstated or misrepresented in order to be more easily attacked or refuted. The technique often takes quotes out of context or, more often, incorrectly paraphrases or summarizes an opponent's position. Then after "defeating" the position, the attacker claims to have beaten the real thing."

While I agree that he is wrong, you most certainly can build a functional qber as it stands now as long as you realize you are only functional in a group and not a solo pvp beast, what he is doing is not a straw man fallacy. And strawmen arguments are so often used on these forums that I think its important to know what the definition is :)
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Re: All skills are class skills for bard: a mistake.

Post by DM Kannoth »

Seeing as how this has just been going in circles, yes. I will be locking the thread. The feedback has been made clear, and it's up to the relevant people to make use of it.
Locked