Surface EXP Cuts

[La Villa Strangiato]

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but with the recent changes to Skaljard writs, it seems the full scope of what writ experience was nerfed wasn't actually mentioned in the announcement posts.

Writs all across the surface and Distant Shores have had their experience nerfed a pretty significant amount. The Blood Moons Are Mobilizing used to give around 3000XP, but has been brought down to 2000XP. Completing Patrol the Shyr and the Arelith Forest patrol writ (that I forgot the name of) gave me 1000XP each; I'm pretty sure they used to give more.

Forgive the melodrama, but some of this is highway robbery. People have plenty of options, nowadays, if they don't want to level too fast; they can take freelancer contracts, turn on adventure mode, or simply roleplay more. Why do we need to continue nerfing XP, and then not talking about the full scope of nerfs in announcements?

[Jan Skorvo]

Tomb of the First King and Tomb of the Last King were reduced by 1000 xp from 3000 and now only give 2000.

Quiet the Shade Haunted Ruins gives 1000 xp now, when it previously gave either 2000 or 2500.

Depths of Despair gives 2000, when it previously gave 3000.

Scout the forest gives 1500, when it previously gave 2500.

Clear the Crystal caves gives 2000, when it previously gave 3000.

The courier writ A mature flavor gives 2000, when it previously gave 3000.

The courier writ Artisinal barrels gives 2000, when it previously gave 4000.

A cave full of broken teeth give 2000, when it previously was 3000

Screeching Caverns give you 2000, when it was previously 3000.

Morghuns gives you 5000, when it was previously 7000.

Hunt the huntsman gives you 5000, when it previously gave 6000.

Merchant's coast gives you 1000, when it previously gave 2500.


These are only the writs that I have personally seen changed, not the total scope of changes to surface writs, which I believe there are probably many more reductions in xp. I have not seen a single gain in xp yet, but this does not mean that there isn't any, just that I have not experienced it... although it does seem to me that there was a significant and serious reduction in experience gain across the board to all surface writs.

These changes seem aimed to encouraging people to circlegrind more, as the writs they do seem to have a lesser impact.

Edit:Typo's and numbers.

[Irongron]

Blood moon writ reduction was not intentional, and I'll take another look.

The new Brogendenstein and Jungle writs are worth in excess of 35k XP.

[Exordius]

I thought i noticed something was fishy with xp rewards since it was supposed to only have been Skal and not the surface according to the announcement. I don't care much for stealth nerfs but at the same time it has not really affected me much so whatever i guess.

[Good Character]

You guys have some very selective reading. The announcement never solely named Skal as getting XP nerfs.

For reference:
"I've reduced the rewards for some writs. Mostly this quite minor, and especially focused on Skal, where I received feedback that players there were often actually unhappy about reaching the threshold to leave too quickly due to the rapid levelling rate we currently experience.

The only place to have seen a very heavy reduction in writ rewards is the Radiant Heart, which is now in line with similar writs elsewhere."

This thread is melodramatic. The only reason the Skal one has justification to exist is because it felt like a small, loud minority advocated for that change whereas more Skal-goers liked the existing writ XP rewards.

[Security_Blanket]

To me, this change kind of sucks. Nothing was added to the Arelith experience, we just have to spend more time circle grinding to achieve the same outcome. Courier writs used to be good, now they give a max of 2000 XP even if walking all the way from Cordor to Brog? Yea, no thanks, I'd rather spend that same 30 minutes killing crap and taking their loot. I'll get a lot more experience, gold, and at least be mildly entertained.

[hi chat]

The across-the-board nerfs to writ payouts don't very feel engaging.

I fully understand the staff team's intention of encouraging people to branching out and exploring dungeons that aren't usually done - but gutting writ payouts to a point where writs intended for 10-20s only give 1000xp don't encourage people to explore dungeons they haven't done before - it encourages them back onto the same old circlegrind chains.

I don't think there was an issue with the old writ XP payouts. People had tools to slow down their levelling if they wanted.

However, a possible suggestion to the solution of people not being adventurous with writs could be positive incentive instead of negative incentive; perhaps writ agents randomly offer bonuses to random writs? Say, the writ agent in Cordor has a chance to randomly offer bonus gold for random writs - this could incentive people to pick up writs they haven't tried before but in a way that feels rewarding to do these uncommon writs rather than people feeling like they jhave to do these writs because levelling is slower across the board, now.

[Vangrave]

With the exp changes to a lot of the more difficult writs, I just don't see myself doing them from a cost standpoint. You lose less money and earn more XP from circle grinding than you do from doing a relatively sizeable number of writs now. I'd imagine the most common path will be to knock out the writs in areas with relatively rewarding mobs and then back to circle grinding.

A lot of writs are just too difficult and time consuming for the amount of XP they give. Regardless of love of RP, people are going to gravitate toward the most effective leveling strategies, and I'm not sure doing writs is the most effective strategy anymore with the latest round of changes. More and more people I know were circle grinding before these most recent changes, and I think we're going to see even more people circle grinding now, particularly if they are incapable of soloing some of the more difficult writs while they're still in XP level range.

[Archnon]

I made this comment on another thread discussing this and I'll make it here.

If the goal of reducing writ XP is merely to respond to the increase in writs then it makes sense. There are more writs that you can spread yourself around on. So each one gives less of a reward. The assumption is that you need X amount of XP to advance to level 30. If there are 10 versus 30 writs, then X/10 is greater than X/30. This is pretty straightforward.

However, based on other comments, it strikes me that the ulterior motive here is to reduce the number of greater and major rewards. People are leveling and rolling quickly. This is from the discussion on the removal of the -2ECL award. This is not going to solve that problem. People are still going to do it and in the meantime, you are punishing the other end of the gaming spectrum with people who don't log in as often and maybe get an hour or two every other day. If you want to reduce the number of high end rewards you either need to lock them behind DM approval, or, better yet, cap the number of awards you can receive at 1 per X months, where X is reasonable for a character arc, like 4 months strikes me as good but people will have opinions. This is not a popular idea because many like the allure and opportunity of getting that rare 5% (we can have a whole discussion about the dangers of intermittent reward addictions!) but that is how you slow down the 5% grind. Not by nuking XP gains.

[xf1313]

It will basically discourage people from taking weak classes...like wizard or sourcers, bard and warlock are just 1000x better. And there’s cleric, Druid, shamans....

Agree with previous post, dm can make all 5% race or class By Application Only, right? No exp nerf can stop people’s desire from playing rare races. That would monitor the population. And a few rolls per month seems reasonable..besides, if the chance increase with gold is also removed, there might be less gold mulling.

With exp nerf and level cap (I missed the time when my weak character can just get on with rat killing in cordor for rewards), circle grind seems very attractive now, the writs has less money and poor exp anyway

[elftv]

It's not that bad.

Also, don't ever dream of a 5%. I've rolled dozens of level 27-30 characters. I'm never getting one.

[Jan Skorvo]

It will basically discourage people from taking weak classes...like wizard or sourcers, bard and warlock are just 1000x better. And there’s cleric, Druid, shamans....

Agree with previous post, dm can make all 5% race or class By Application Only, right? No exp nerf can stop people’s desire from playing rare races. That would monitor the population. And a few rolls per month seems reasonable..besides, if the chance increase with gold is also removed, there might be less gold mulling.

With exp nerf and level cap (I missed the time when my weak character can just get on with rat killing in cordor for rewards), circle grind seems very attractive now, the writs has less money and poor exp anyway

If surface exp was cut to discourage people from leveling their character quickly and rolling, I do not believe that this works, as circlegrinding was way more efficient and if you put enough effort in, you can get to level 26 probably within two weeks without doing writs.

Tomb of the King of Kings only gives 4000 now, and it used to give 6000.

It's starting to feel that the amount of EXP cut from the surface was in excess of the 35k amount given by the new Brogendenstein and Crow's Nest writs. These writs also cap out at a certain level, and do not continue all the way to 30, and there seems to be a dearth of options once you hit level 25+ in writwork, another issue.

[Join Us. Thrive.]

I do not believe that writ work was ever supposed to take you all the way to 30. It used to be writs got you to 20, but you could turn them in until you hit level 22. So you could complete writs and save them until that point and then turn them in for an XP boost into your low epics, but then it was circle grinding.

There were a number of new writs and areas added that allowed XP gains up into the mid 20's. But this is still a newer idea behind it. I don't think that writs are or were intended to just get you to 30. They were supposed to, at least originally, help get people to the epic levels where they could more easily join other epic level groups in doing end game content or more dangerous dungeons to get the last of their XP.

[Jan Skorvo]

I do not believe that writ work was ever supposed to take you all the way to 30. It used to be writs got you to 20, but you could turn them in until you hit level 22. So you could complete writs and save them until that point and then turn them in for an XP boost into your low epics, but then it was circle grinding.

There were a number of new writs and areas added that allowed XP gains up into the mid 20's. But this is still a newer idea behind it. I don't think that writs are or were intended to just get you to 30. They were supposed to, at least originally, help get people to the epic levels where they could more easily join other epic level groups in doing end game content or more dangerous dungeons to get the last of their XP.

There are already writs that can take you to 30, specifically in Guldorand, except the Guldorand content takes too long to complete, so much so that it can be faster just circlegrinding to 30. Things change, and the original intent was to provide a smoother leveling experience rather than circle grinding constantly. I enjoyed doing three writs once a day, and then spending hours and hours just rping, which is what the first iteration of writ rework allowed me to do. The second iteration also let me do this. This current rework with nerfed rewards, I am circle grinding for the first time in five months, and no longer spending my time rping. I believe this is a massive issue as I enjoy rping and I do not enjoy circle grinding.

[Shadowy Reality]

I really don't get what people are complaining about. I got to 30 with 100k adventure exp stored up and dozens upon dozens of writs to still complete. There is plenty of EXP to be gained on the surface.

[Jan Skorvo]

I really don't get what people are complaining about. I got to 30 with 100k adventure exp stored up and dozens upon dozens of writs to still complete. There is plenty of EXP to be gained on the surface.

Have you created a character within the past week or so?

[xf1313]

I really don't get what people are complaining about. I got to 30 with 100k adventure exp stored up and dozens upon dozens of writs to still complete. There is plenty of EXP to be gained on the surface.

The new writ not only nerfed exp gain, but also the adventure exp. I tried a character taking freelancer writ, that give 1000-2000 adventure exp for early lv writ. Professional give...250? I do not know how freelancer performs in higher lv but it seems good for early lv. Get the easiest writ done, rp and lv up.

Why people complain? Just a few month ago people can get some writ done and sit back to rp as long as they like. But recently, one have to turn on adventure and grind mobs to have same result. Some really hard writ give little rewards. And many hates grinding.

[Xerah]

This current rework with nerfed rewards, I am circle grinding for the first time in five months, and no longer spending my time rping. I believe this is a massive issue as I enjoy rping and I do not enjoy circle grinding.

This just doesn’t make sense. You don’t need to do this circle grinding. How does getting a bit less exp force you to do that?

Surface still has way more exp than the underdark

[Jan Skorvo]

This current rework with nerfed rewards, I am circle grinding for the first time in five months, and no longer spending my time rping. I believe this is a massive issue as I enjoy rping and I do not enjoy circle grinding.

This just doesn’t make sense. You don’t need to do this circle grinding. How does getting a bit less exp force you to do that?

If the writs give you 1000 to 2000 xp, which they seem to be doing more often now, it is faster to level up through circle grinding than doing writwork, as the time to complete a writ may vary. Many difficult writs that require a lot of preparation give out reduced rewards. Also as my previous post has shown, it seems to be a reduction across the board, not just a bit less.

Surface still has way more exp than the underdark

I agree with you, but none of my points are intended to compare surface to the underdark, and I have argued that the underdark needs a slight increase to their rewards due to the inherent difficulty and time commitment required with their writs.

[magistrasa]

Xerah's point, I think, is that if you like to roleplay, you don't need to be max level to start. No one is holding you at gunpoint to circlegrind. Being less than level 30 doesn't render roleplay meaningless, and hitting level 30 doesn't necessarily open you up to more avenues or possibilities either*. Just have fun and be yourself.

* - With the exception of the fact that you cant use any Spell Focus goodies until epic levels, which is honestly kind of a bummer. Got the Secret of Scrying on my low level Loremaster and it doesn't let me scry. Can't even use my GSF Teleport cookie. I kinda get the logic, but it makes me sad.

[Jan Skorvo]

Xerah's point, I think, is that if you like to roleplay, you don't need to be max level to start. No one is holding you at gunpoint to circlegrind. Being less than level 30 doesn't render roleplay meaningless, and hitting level 30 doesn't necessarily open you up to more avenues or possibilities either*. Just have fun and be yourself.

* - With the exception of the fact that you cant use any Spell Focus goodies until epic levels, which is honestly kind of a bummer. Got the Secret of Scrying on my low level Loremaster and it doesn't let me scry. Can't even use my GSF Teleport cookie. I kinda get the logic, but it makes me sad.

I personally really like dm events, and a lot of them seem geared towards the higher end of things. I have previously been in some at level fifteen and at level 21, and both times I was unable to participate towards everything and had to step out of the event. I agree that rp doesn't begin at 30, and I personally have never subscribed to that mentality, but on the other hand I do not enjoy stepping out of content that I want to participate in either.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

I don't have an issue with the lowering of xp in general, but if folks are going back to circle grinding thats not good for anyone. Not me, the guy who wants to use that dungeon for a writ but can't because one group is in there for two hours on rotation, and not them, the folks clearly losing their sanity in a mindless grind.

[garrbear758]

I made this comment on another thread discussing this and I'll make it here.

If the goal of reducing writ XP is merely to respond to the increase in writs then it makes sense. There are more writs that you can spread yourself around on. So each one gives less of a reward. The assumption is that you need X amount of XP to advance to level 30. If there are 10 versus 30 writs, then X/10 is greater than X/30. This is pretty straightforward.

However, based on other comments, it strikes me that the ulterior motive here is to reduce the number of greater and major rewards. People are leveling and rolling quickly. This is from the discussion on the removal of the -2ECL award. This is not going to solve that problem. People are still going to do it and in the meantime, you are punishing the other end of the gaming spectrum with people who don't log in as often and maybe get an hour or two every other day. If you want to reduce the number of high end rewards you either need to lock them behind DM approval, or, better yet, cap the number of awards you can receive at 1 per X months, where X is reasonable for a character arc, like 4 months strikes me as good but people will have opinions. This is not a popular idea because many like the allure and opportunity of getting that rare 5% (we can have a whole discussion about the dangers of intermittent reward addictions!) but that is how you slow down the 5% grind. Not by nuking XP gains.

Totally agree with this. This seems like an attempt to curb the powerlevelers by punishing everyone, and the people who don't have a lot of play time are hurt by this the most. When I initially raised the awards, the intent was to respect players free time by allowing them to do a few writs for leveling and then rp, and as far as I'm aware it worked. On the other side of that coin, it made powerlevelers able to grind out rewards way too easily. Nerfind writs seems like its attacking a symptom of the problem rather than the problem itself.

Instead of nerfing writs, how about we disincentive reward grinding by either capping the amount of awards or setting a minimum playtime on a character required to roll. For people who enjoy shorter lived characters, this time limit could be bypassed by a MoD, or maybe even something stricter such as a hardcore mode with 1 life.

[garrbear758]

Xerah's point, I think, is that if you like to roleplay, you don't need to be max level to start. No one is holding you at gunpoint to circlegrind. Being less than level 30 doesn't render roleplay meaningless, and hitting level 30 doesn't necessarily open you up to more avenues or possibilities either*. Just have fun and be yourself.

* - With the exception of the fact that you cant use any Spell Focus goodies until epic levels, which is honestly kind of a bummer. Got the Secret of Scrying on my low level Loremaster and it doesn't let me scry. Can't even use my GSF Teleport cookie. I kinda get the logic, but it makes me sad.

While you don't need to be max level to roleplay at all, it does make it a lot harder to play a villain, or a paladin, or any character who may be involved in direct conflict, which is a significant part of arelith. While a politician or other similar style of character can get a lot accomplished at level 3, not everyone wants to play that. If you want to play a pirate, or a banite, or a tormite, you're probably going to expect some level of pvp in your characters life, and if you're a low level trying to pull off that kind of character, you're going to get crushed repeatedly and then no longer taken seriously, probably for the life of the character.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

I really don't get what people are complaining about. I got to 30 with 100k adventure exp stored up and dozens upon dozens of writs to still complete. There is plenty of EXP to be gained on the surface.

Have you created a character within the past week or so?

The point may be a little bit over your head, but if you've only been playing as long as your forum sign-up date then it's not your fault. If you check out Shadowy and mine's forum sign-up date, we come from an era where writs didn't even exist. Leveling is exponentially faster than it used to be - I occasionally comment about never having had a character over level 24 or having rolled a character, but that's because I spend my extremely limited playtime talking rather than killing.

I don't necessarily think leveling is too fast, but I definitely don't think it's too slow, either. I think a more practical limitation in terms of XP would be, rather than nerfing the XP available per creature or writ, set staged limits for how fast you can progress based on the level.

Levels 1-7: Unlimited
Levels 8-15: 1 level/day
Levels 16-20: 1 level/2 days
Levels 21-30: 1 level/3 days

Or something like this. The important parts here-
-No one can hit level 30 in 2 weeks.
-The journey can still be completed within a total of 48 days (1.5 months)
-The majority of the slowdown is the thirty day process of completing your epic levels, making your 'epic' journey somewhat suitable to the term.
-No class with a Full or Medium BAB gets 'stuck' with one attack if they want to sprint through it. Casters don't get stuck without access to 4th level spells.

I realize Arelith has never been big on policing people's inclination to go dungeon crawling- and I'm not saying you shouldn't be allowed to hunt if you hit the XP cap- there's still loot and supplies to gather, after all. But if it's openly acknowledged that people who talk to no one and just run around breezing through dungeons get their RPR lowered, I don't see how a system like this would be any different, except there'd probably be less RPR deductions to hand out- and no one would grind a character out in two weeks, which I believe while allowed has had disfavor more than subtly hinted at it by the Team over the years.