Surface EXP Cuts

[elftv]

Some food for thought.

I do a lot of circle grinding pre 20.

At 20 I do Minmir writs. Then I do a few high tier Guldorand writs. This almost definitely puts me at 25 with some roleplay time.

I do Shadow Plane writs and end up at 30 before I turn in the last one because I was roleplaying a lot.

Post 20 is pretty smooth from my most recent experience before writ changes that happened to lots of low end writs.

Save your Minmir and high level Guldorand writs for 20. It doesn't matter if you're overleveled for many of them. Do Shadowplane at 25.

[Xerah]

Xerah's point, I think, is that if you like to roleplay, you don't need to be max level to start. No one is holding you at gunpoint to circlegrind. Being less than level 30 doesn't render roleplay meaningless, and hitting level 30 doesn't necessarily open you up to more avenues or possibilities either*. Just have fun and be yourself.

Basically, yes. You're not keeping up with anything unless you had some personal EXP per day goal (Which is also a terrible way to look at things)

This is bananas. I don't know how the "RP starts at 30 meme" became reality.

[Whosdis]

Xerah's point, I think, is that if you like to roleplay, you don't need to be max level to start. No one is holding you at gunpoint to circlegrind. Being less than level 30 doesn't render roleplay meaningless, and hitting level 30 doesn't necessarily open you up to more avenues or possibilities either*. Just have fun and be yourself.

* - With the exception of the fact that you cant use any Spell Focus goodies until epic levels, which is honestly kind of a bummer. Got the Secret of Scrying on my low level Loremaster and it doesn't let me scry. Can't even use my GSF Teleport cookie. I kinda get the logic, but it makes me sad.

Whilst it's obviously reductionist to the concept of low level roleplay to paint it as "Standing/sitting around a campfire", the simple fact of the matter is that a lot of it is going to be exactly that.

The idea of level 30 not increasing avenues is, quite frankly, absurd. Do you want to do DM events? Oh, you have to be level 28. Do you want to join that cool new antagonist faction? Forget level 28, you have to be level 30 or you're just going to be too much of a liability. Are you an enchanter? Well, you need to reach level 28 and dump points into leadership to access your Good Hope buffs and have the opportunity to roleplay your character's magically enhanced personality.

Now, I had a lot of fun as a sub-level 20 character when I had a group of friends and we were playing a dysfunctional Sun Elf family, as we were all proficient roleplayers bouncing off eachother's personalities. However, every time I am stuck doing the process solo, it, quite frankly, is not fun.

I really don't get what people are complaining about. I got to 30 with 100k adventure exp stored up and dozens upon dozens of writs to still complete. There is plenty of EXP to be gained on the surface.

Have you created a character within the past week or so?

s 1-7: Unlimited
Levels 8-15: 1 level/day
Levels 16-20: 1 level/2 days
Levels 21-30: 1 level/3 days

Or something like this. The important parts here-
-No one can hit level 30 in 2 weeks.
-The journey can still be completed within a total of 48 days (1.5 months)
-The majority of the slowdown is the thirty day process of completing your epic levels, making your 'epic' journey somewhat suitable to the term.
-No class with a Full or Medium BAB gets 'stuck' with one attack if they want to sprint through it. Casters don't get stuck without access to 4th level spells.

I would absolutely despise this if this were padded on top of the current levelling system: However, a version of this that just gave you the levels for being active and playing rather than necessitating doing dungeons and the like would be lovely, I have a friend who absolutely despises doing hunts and writs and it's like pulling teeth getting him to level up, but he enjoys the social and roleplay aspect of Arelith. (On the twist side, he wants to an antagonist as well and it's on him for not putting the work in.)

[Distant Relation]

"RP starts at 30" is the short form of what the sentence should be. "RP of any real impact or significance starts at 30" is perhaps a better description. Anyone trying to make waves in Arelith will very quickly accrue a list of opponents. Some of these opponents will want to fight wars of words and politics, but most opponents will voice their dissent with either direct pvp (murder you to death) or with gold-based indirect pvp (pay an assassin to murder you to death).

So yes. RP exists under 30, but largely that needs to be "campfire type" RP, innocent and ultimately inconsequential in the grand scheme. If you want to get into an actual conflict, you have to have either the money or the mechanical power to back up your words, and that generally requires being level 30.

DM events? 30
Settlement politics? Probably 30, or at least have enough friends that are 30
UD/Surface tension? All other participants will be 30, so you better have a plan if you're not.
Even sailing, my passion, works so much better once you have a level 30 complete build and you can actually set out on your own and make your own stories instead of being a passenger in other people's stories.
Heck, want to run a shop? Unless you're a commoner, tradeskill points will gate your participation in the interesting part of the economy, and while you can buy materials to make things with, that will severely cut into your profits when compared to being able to go out and farm the things you need yourself.

1-29 is the time to discover your character, evolve your concept, make friends, find a root and a cause, join a faction, explore the world. 30 is when you can start making waves instead of just riding the waves others make. Level 30 (or at least 'epic') opens a *tremendous* amount of opportunities for both conflict and non-conflict styles of RP.

[Xerah]

The idea of level 30 not increasing avenues is, quite frankly, absurd. Do you want to do DM events? Oh, you have to be level 28. Do you want to join that cool new antagonist faction? Forget level 28, you have to be level 30 or you're just going to be too much of a liability. Are you an enchanter? Well, you need to reach level 28 and dump points into leadership to access your Good Hope buffs and have the opportunity to roleplay your character's magically enhanced personality.

This seems pretty absurd that you think you need to wait until level 28 to do those things. This whole view seems as though you feel that you're entitled to get to max level asap. No one said it doesn't increase opinions (having more feats/abilities), but it's absolutely not required at all. Most of my characters were rolled not too long after hitting 30.

Not every DM event is a world-shattering event full of max-level characters. Nor are they always based on combat prowess where level won't have much to do with anything.

If a faction doesn't allow people in before max level, then they are a garbage faction. When I ran antagonist factions, I wanted people of all levels.

And a couple of more bonus points on good hope isn't going to change your role play. At all.

These are beyond bananas leaps here, so much that I'm not sure if we're even playing the same game.

"RP of any real impact or significance starts at 30"

This is still 100% incorrect on so many levels.

[Jan Skorvo]

Xerah's point, I think, is that if you like to roleplay, you don't need to be max level to start. No one is holding you at gunpoint to circlegrind. Being less than level 30 doesn't render roleplay meaningless, and hitting level 30 doesn't necessarily open you up to more avenues or possibilities either*. Just have fun and be yourself.

Basically, yes. You're not keeping up with anything unless you had some personal EXP per day goal (Which is also a terrible way to look at things)

This is bananas. I don't know how the "RP starts at 30 meme" became reality.

I do not believe I ever said anything with regards to RP starting at 30, I do not know if you are making a general statement regarding the meme, or attempting to insinuate that my posts say this in a roundabout way.

You can RP at any level. Any and all rp you do can be impactful regardless of level. I am not disputing that, but with regards to the DM event's that I have been involved with, the higher level you are, the more you will be able to experience.

[Distant Relation]

Not every DM event is a world-shattering event full of max-level characters. Nor are they always based on combat prowess where level won't have much to do with anything.

I have never, not once been in a DM event that didn't have at least 40 people onscreen (usually more), and also involved at some point spawning wave after wave of epic level minions to keep the players busy.

Any confirmed DM sighting for an event that takes place in a non-confined space (say a ship at sea) will result in strike teams from every faction available being summoned in from all corners of Arelith. The same old faces will show up and sideline anyone that isn't already a known factor.

I did, once, manage to participate in an event (massive waves of demons spawning out of a ritual circle outside Cordor) with a low level character. I joined an effort to evacuate those who had fallen to the demons and ushered their bodies back to the city. I was warned by the DM running the event afterwards that it was a 'PvP Event', and that rezzing people mid-event so they can rejoin was against the rules.

So I don't know Xerah. I'm sure when you say 'not every DM event is world shattering' and 'not every DM event is based on combat prowess' you mean those words honestly and earnestly, but the vast majority do certainly seem to be those things, at least the public facing ones.

[Whosdis]

The idea of level 30 not increasing avenues is, quite frankly, absurd. Do you want to do DM events? Oh, you have to be level 28. Do you want to join that cool new antagonist faction? Forget level 28, you have to be level 30 or you're just going to be too much of a liability. Are you an enchanter? Well, you need to reach level 28 and dump points into leadership to access your Good Hope buffs and have the opportunity to roleplay your character's magically enhanced personality.

Not every DM event is a world-shattering event full of max-level characters. Nor are they always based on combat prowess where level won't have much to do with anything.

...

These are beyond bananas leaps here, so much that I'm not sure if we're even playing the same game.

Evidently we must be, as I have not ran into a DM event that did not include content meant to be challenging for epic level characters at any time, ever, so far. Now that may be a coincidence and bad timing on my part, but simply put, from my experience, that's simple how it goes.

Yes, you can get degrees of character development and so on before epic levels, but if you don't think it so significantly expands your options, you are highly addrift in denial. As it goes, I try not to RP things that are not supported by the facts of the character sheet, although some things are subjective (how comely or persuasive a character is, for example). Not to mention all of the epic spell focus goodies and simply being a staple of your class.

Even on my Bladesinger character was I was trying to help out in Elven events before she got swept into the Underdark, the RP at times felt oddly distant in the prior and I wasn't breaching the mid-to-high epic levels until she was in the Underdark, and I feel like the major threshold breach was simply chewing the cud with some of the others as we were doing epic levels. Which is another thing, the high levels are socially that much superior due to the simple propensity to find groups of other players.

Perhaps you have a big friend group to draw upon as you're in the early levels and so on Xerah, but right now, I don't have that luxury, and not having that luxury is the difference between a decent group experience that gets better and better, and not being able to do a hell of a lot and having a limited avenue of roleplay until you get further along. Now our salutary host has said that NWN is a "pve game", but singleplayer PVE in the more RPG-oriented campaigns and modules is different than the more social experience of the multiplayer side.

And that's really the crux of the issue, the levelling is "work", whether it's writs, grinding, or so on, it's not like you're progressing on a story continuum like you do with singleplayer campaigns and so on. It IS fun if you have others to enjoy it with, but sitting their killing orcs, doing writs by yourself, it's not outstanding, I'm sorry to say, but one has to perservere through that to get to all the goodies which exist at max level.

[WanderingPoet]

"RP of any real impact or significance starts at 30"

This is still 100% incorrect on so many levels.

100% agree with Xerah here.

Level 30 might give a few more options, but rarely does it matter if someone is level 10 or 30 when it comes to RP of any real impact or significance unless your definition of 'real impact' is running around PVPing en-mass. Frankly it is baffling that the meme started, and that people actually believe it.

Don't believe Xerah/I? Well, I've started/run multiple factions by level 15, one faction of which is still around today and the character that made it never got to level 30 at all. The Dragonstone Grove made by Adilshahsa (who got to 30 like 2 weeks before I rolled him) was a major reason why Burin lead the Heartwood and had a ton of druidic RP and conflict. My character Oscar never got past level 26 yet had months of political RP. I went to a lot of DM events, even world shattering ones, on all my characters long before they got to level 30 - the level truly didn't make a difference.

RP is about quality of writing, not mechanical power.

Ironically the only ""truth"" of 'RP of any real impact of significance starts at 30' is because it takes so little effort and time that my last character accidentally got to 30, so I didn't have much -time- to establish myself before I was magically 30. And this was before the updates that made leveling significantly faster. Now you can get to level 30 in two to four weeks, it is harder to make significant impact before 30 when you're level 30 so rapidly.

---------

So I don't know Xerah. I'm sure when you say 'not every DM event is world shattering' and 'not every DM event is based on combat prowess' you mean those words honestly and earnestly, but the vast majority do certainly seem to be those things, at least the public facing ones.

Maybe it's just poor luck. Those such events are pretty rare, the vast majority of DM events that I see don't have more than 10 people, or if they do it's a single faction/settlement with just high numbers of people, or a private event where the person calls on all of their friends and it turns into a large army.

[Distant Relation]

Maybe it's just poor luck.

Maybe it is, or timezones, or anything of the sort. Maybe I just don't hang out on the right social circles, or hang out in the correct spots in-game. There's lots of possible explanations there, surely.

But what I'm trying to say is, no amount of sticking fingers in ears and yelling loudly that 'RP starts at 30 is a myth' is going to change the fact that for a large tranche of the population, that is exactly true. I say this as someone who was having fun participating in a DM event with a mid teens character until the point the DM started asking for DC 40 will and DC 60 medicine checks, at which point I ate my 'you're asleep now' like a good girl and let the big boys keep RPing.

What are we supposed to think, and do?

[Eyeliner]

I am not going to apologize for saying levels matter. RP doesn’t start at 30 but a lot of doors are closed until you’re epics. I mean epic content and I mean your character’s abilities to tell or take part in stories. Lots of character-defining skills, spells feats and RP tools aren’t available early on and it’s a natural thing to want to get to where you can use them.

For example the way the sail system works you need to be high epics to really be a part of the best content. I have a sailor alt at the moment who I don’t see getting there for at least month if not more and it’s a drag to just play someone talking about wanting to sail with the big crews someday. That’s fine for a while but it’s the character’s whole MO and waiting is getting old fast.

Same with disguising, if you want to be an infiltrator you won’t get far until your bluff or perform are really, really high. Or, my main is a diviner who’s not getting scry until at least level 24 and that character isn’t really going to come alive until then so yeah I’m leveling that one as fast as I can then I will relax when I have the ability.

Other times it doesn’t matter. I’ll play characters without a set purpose and who may bum around in the low levels for a long time. That’s fun too especially on Skal, it’s not just always the movie I want to star in every time. I like different experiences. As you can see I usually play two characters at a time and like to go through them at a decent pace because I have a lot of ideas I’d like to try. Another reason I’d rather level quickly than slowly, I don’t want to spend six months with everything I play. Sometimes yes but sometimes they don’t work out.

And last thing, I’m a human with a job, I can’t play 40 hours a week and I think that’s a really unhealthy thing to do with your life so I wouldn’t if I could. I play 12-15 hours most weeks, a little more others, and even that is a pretty unhealthy amount of time to spend on a recreational pursuit that won’t make you money and won’t get you further in a career. Those hours are usually one or two long RP sessions on weekends getting involved with whatever is available then some 1-2 hour bursts of leveling or grinding materials or whatever after work. So you’d better believe I’m paying attention to maximizing my gains when I’m leveling a character. Those weekday bursts are all about keeping up so I can take part in things on the weekends with a character who’s competent enough to be a part of the things I want to be a part of. That’s also why I really liked the Guld start but now that any character made that way is a dead end who can't roll another award I’m losing that option and it kind of sucks.

All that said I’m taking an “it is what it is” attitude with all of this stuff, and I don’t have much to say about the writ changes themselves except that some of them are getting so low they just aren’t worth the time or effort if my time is limited.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

Cordorian guard captain at level 7.
Cordorian guard commander at ~ level 13.
Not exactly a short tenure (nor was it singular), never reached level 30.

My anecdotal experience does not match up with the experience of those who insist that RP begins at 30, nor did the experience of most of those around me at the time. ~35 active members at our peak.

Meaningful, important RP can absolutely happen, DM or otherwise, long before 30. I was baffled at being made a captain (to say nothing of landing commander on a character whose express story goal was initially "do anything except join the guard"), because even back then the concept of RP starting at 30 was somewhat codified into Arelithian meme culture already - but all it did was give the character an IC drive to try to be worthy of the position in whatever ways they could- and me one OOC, as well.

Like all such situations on Arelith, though, you're only going to get what you put in back out of it in most cases. If you half-heartedly engage with a situation because you're low level and you think nothing can come of it, people around you will pick up on that. If you give it your all, I suspect you will find people with far more resources than you willing to step up behind and beside you to make sure the fact that you can be one-shot isn't the most important thing about you.

[Whosdis]

You know, you might be onto something there. Cordor is not my cup of tea but I can see influential roleplay not requiring high levels.

I'm going an evil route, however. I think it's only borderline viable to do that either as an evil PC on the surface or in the Underdark, as you'd be picked apart by either side as it's a greater struggle for survival.

So it probably does hedge on the type of environment you're going into.

[Xerah]

A belief that you can't do anything before 30 is an extremely poor way to play Arelith as it shapes and ruins almost everything Arelith is supposed to be. But apparently, this is me in denial despite having many similar examples to Poet (yes, even on the surface evil side).

I don't have big groups of friends to play with because I make new accounts when I make new characters. I had a very similar experience in casually leveling a recent character to 30 in the UD as Poet just described.

I think this whole attitude is extremely unhealthy and I hope there are discussions behind the scenes about how to fix this cultural problem. It's possible that this is an intentional shift by the Admin Team, and if so, I conceded that you guys are correct and I'm wrong, but until I hear differently, I wouldn't be surprised to see more changes to adjust this experience and "rp starts at 30" cultural.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

You know, you might be onto something there. Cordor is not my cup of tea but I can see influential roleplay not requiring high levels.

I'm going an evil route, however. I think it's only borderline viable to do that either as an evil PC on the surface or in the Underdark, as you'd be picked apart by either side as it's a greater struggle for survival.

So it probably does hedge on the type of environment you're going into.

For what it's worth, my tenure as guard commander lasted through at least two wars and the bombardment of Wharftown. There was still lots of conflict involved in level ranges way over my head, so there's some similarity with the struggle of evil, especially as an under-leveled figure of official authority whose job it is to stop criminal types from doing criminal things(read: juicy target ).

I get what you're saying, and I'm not sure I have a workable solution for you - the only advice I have centers on perspective. It requires a deep, honest look at your motivations here. Are you here to 'win' or are you here to tell a story? I'm not saying both can't be true, I'm asking which one matters more to you. If you're here to win first, you will never be happy until you're level 30, and then you'll never stay happy unless you never lose.

If you're here to tell a story first, does it matter that the guy across from you can one-shot you? How does it make the other character look, to kill you in cold blood in a single blow? How about your friends and the people around you (have you made any yet, or have you been putting that off until level 30?) You get to respawn (if you want), but their reputation change lasts a lot longer than an hour - and how much you can shape that will never be dependent on your level, but in how much of a reaction you inspire in those around you.

I'm not saying wanting to be level 30 is bad. I want to be level 30 eventually on all my characters. I'm saying the perspective that you can't achieve anything before 30 is self-defeating and best abandoned. I'm not saying it never happens and that it will never happen if you try it the other way, but I can't help but feel there is some truth to self-actualization in this case - if you go out looking for it to be true, you're probably not going to find any surprises.

[Whosdis]

I get that, I wouldn't say so much of it is a want to win but a want to meaningfully compete: Like it or not there's not necessarily a wholly cliquey, but mildly cliquey and gang-handed element to certain PC factions, doubly so for the underdark. Now, I like a certain niche(evil surface Elves), and I like to think I'm nor playing to win playing that concept: I like to mesh the nuance of both the character and general, evil elven lore.

I don't think the "RP starts at 30" is necessarily a self-actuating culture but rather a combination of cultural influences, such as factions being so cliquey. I've had individuals who were sympathetic when my clearly underdog character was summarily executed, but not only is that the exception, the character had to choose being blackmailed by my character's executors to avoid being a pariah in the town this matter was settled in, and this was the Surface, not the underdark. Maybe it's me being pessimistic, but I feel a majority of the time a mid-level morally ambiguous person being executed is just another pushover villain being cast aside. Some people push back against this grain, but I emphasize, only some.

And that was nearly passive roleplay through the ordeal. Sometimes, it simply doesnt give you good RP being the underdog except for those "some people". (Not that level made a difference, we were happened upon by like 14 people)

On the other hand hearkening to the previous discussion, now that I've breached into the 20's, I think I'm more content generally, as those writs dont seem to have touched, and I appreciate the return to a more comforting pace.

[Eyeliner]

There's just too many variables to make any grand declarations like "levels don't matter" or "RP starts at 30". If you're skilled at RP and have charisma as a player you can do quite a bit. Taking a role in a city or many factions or being a performer doesn't require levels if you know how to talk the talk. Some things just do though. If you're a sneak you're not beating high spot without levels and gear no matter how charismatic you are. if you want to rise in the ranks of an arcane group you'll probably do a lot better with epic spells to back up your words. I don't even want to bring up PVP, but...

But at the most basic level this is a video game based on progression and if you're gonna dangle carrots in front of players you can't be surprised if they bite. Levels don't always matter, but an awful lot of the time they kind of do.

[La Villa Strangiato]

*returns to my thread that I tossed into the world and abandoned like a redheaded stepchild* So I mostly agree with Whosdis, Distant Relation, and Eyeliner here, but I'll throw in some of my two cents on why I do believe that levels matter.

I enjoy a levelling experience. It allows your characters to explore, settle into the world, and gradually establish your character's personality without having too many obligations and giving you some time to decide what you want to do with said character. I don't like Arelith's levelling experience though, mainly because I feel Arelith isn't really fun as a game where you level. I also think a lot of the dungeons on Arelith are poorly designed or tedious, which, inb4 "go feedback it" I have, and you can see some of my posts about dungeon feedback in the writ thread. "But La Villa Strangiato", you cry, "why do you play Arelith if you don't like its levelling experience?" Simple; I enjoy the RP I've found on Arelith, and I also like making outfits for my characters and interior decorating.

I do think the coolest dungeons in the module are epic-level content. Red Dragon Isle, the Viper Temple, the Depths (Fallen Udos, Izlude's Torment, Mount Baphomet); these are some of the most fun dungeons to play just for the little challenge they provide, and the atmosphere that comes with delving deep into a dangerous and well-protected area for TREASURES and RARE METALS and such. But when it comes to dungeons like the Blood Moons fortress, which is just awful because it makes you run around its lower level pulling stupid levers by trial and error to get into a stupid room to fight the stupid boss, I just want that to be over with.

I think a lot of people agree with me that there are a lot of dungeons on Arelith that are necessary to do to progress in your levels, but are also just plain unfun, and this is another reason why people want levelling to be over and done with as quickly as possible. While you don't necessarily have to be level 30 to do fun things in RP and get involved in the player-made narratives, Eyeliner was right in that this is a progression-based game, and Whosdis was right in that conflict RP feels a lot less one-sided when you're all on the same level progression-wise.

[Archnon]

It is a fallacy to claim that people who want to get to 30 quickly don't begin RP at level 3. These are not mutually exclusive. I may start RP at 3 and still want to get to 30 quickly. This shouldn't be a conversation we are having.

[Jan Skorvo]

The topic of why people want to get to 30 is besides the point. The real issue is that these xp writ changes make it more efficient for people to circle grind, and I was under the impression the writ system and the writ rework was so that people could not circle grind anymore.

I personally think if you want to grind out your char, go for it. I have no issue with you wanting to just kill things endlessly in a loop, but I can't do that. The times that I have done circle grinding, It makes me want to not play neverwinter. It burns me out on the character, there is nothing engaging about that whatsoever.

The original writ rework completely eliminated circle grinding for me. I made a character, got them to level 27 through writs alone, and just rped with all the adventure xp to 30. This current writ rework, I am taking writs that only give me 1000 to 2000 xp, and then finding myself running loops because I don't have enough adventure xp and the writs I have taken that would normally either level me up or get me close, are nowhere near as benficial.

If more writ nerfs go through, I expect to see a larger portion of the playerbase return to circle grinding, an issue that was pretty much completely resolved before.

[MRFTW]

. This current writ rework, I am taking writs that only give me 1000 to 2000 xp, and then finding myself running loops because I don't have enough adventure xp

I find this too, professional writs give too little adventure XP and freelancer writs give so much as to be superfluous.

I escorted a package to the trappers on Skal, which took so long that I had less advcenture xp after handing it in than I had when starting. I was in adventure mode at level 13.

Rat races aren't fun.

[Shrouded Wanderer]

An aside suggestion, maybe instead of making us choose between adventure XP and instant XP, when we select a writ how about we make that choice per writ


I think id probably personally do 2 quests at instant and one with adventure xp so that once my writs are done ill know i have enough adventure xp to go RP for a bit.


Just my .02

[MRFTW]

An aside suggestion, maybe instead of making us choose between adventure XP and instant XP, when we select a writ how about we make that choice per writ


I think id probably personally do 2 quests at instant and one with adventure xp so that once my writs are done ill know i have enough adventure xp to go RP for a bit.


Just my .02

You can effectively do this by doing 2 normal level writs and 1 low level writ - the low level will be completely turned into adventure XP.

Not something I'm keen on myself as I don't like hanging around low level dungeons as a high level, but other than that, it achieves the goal on a mechanical level.

[Amateur Hour]

The topic of why people want to get to 30 is besides the point. The real issue is that these xp writ changes make it more efficient for people to circle grind, and I was under the impression the writ system and the writ rework was so that people could not circle grind anymore.

This is really big.

Regular circle grinding is just not good for the health of the server, because it means that a small group of people is monopolizing an area, preventing other people from getting anything done (because all the enemies are already dead). Yes, it's considered a violation of Be Nice to circle-grind when other people are trying to do stuff, but you have to see the evidence of other people in the area to know you're stopping people from doing something with your circle-grinding.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

I'll echo the post above me about circle grinding and its negative effect on the server, even though I already said it a page ago in this thread, because I think it's the most important part of this discussion at this point.



As for the whole "RP starts at 30" debate, sorry guys, but the war is over. I know because I had fought it for three years before finally giving up about a year ago, with several threads explaining why x or y rule that made way for excessive pvp was going to push folks into the mindset that you gotta be 30 asap. Hell, the guy that inspired me to say that dms should be needed for pvp in certain areas where it makes sense that the setting would react to the aggressors ended up banned despite not breaking any rules, because let's face it the issue is in the pvp rules.

The irony is that some of the same people that are sitting here with defeated posts claiming surprise that this is where the server is now were also some of the ones that were calling me hyperbolic back when I was a warrior for the cause. Now I am just another guy who will make sure they get to 30 as fast as possible, and no amount of posts on how it should be is going to change that because the only thing that matters is how it is.

And now that the culture has shifted so far in that direction, it's ... well, I like to think nothing is impossible, but this is about as close as one can get without actually saying the I word. You slow down the leveling process too much at this point, and the population will only decrease over time. It doesn't matter that it used to be much slower, once people get used to driving a Porshe it's really hard to go back to a Honda. That's just human nature.