Arcane
+6 ac, 50% concealment
Druidic
+5 ac, +2 ab
Divine
+1 ab, +2 ac, +4 vs. banishment, immune to neg
Overall, I think lesser sequencers are great for leveling since you've now got a reliable way to apply these buffs without consuming needed spellslots. They're also pretty comprable to what a mundane might spend on consumables — except, 10x more efficient since they trigger off of player level and not caster level. You can make these with 1 tradeskill point since the DC is 15. The most optimal for leveling, the arcane sequencer, only needs 1 Scroll of Mage Armor (50g), Shield(50g) and Improved Invisibility(700g or cheaper if scribed yourself), 1 Casting Mold (DC1), 1 Lesser Catalyst (DC 19, 1000g). Total base cost assuming worst scenario = 1800g.
That is *a lot* for a level 3 character not leveling in skal. How are they going to get money if they can't complete writs because they don't have sequencers and can't buff their summons? Only to get immediately squished.
Not everyone knows mechanics or how to build. And this will seriously hurt new players trying to play the game.
I understand nerfing *epic* summons. Like LG Gate spell. But many, many non-melee casters rely on conjuration summons to even exist. And early game, it is hard to get gold. Basically you must rely on others to help you.
My current character is a caster favored soul. Of course she is not a mechanically viable build. She was made to support other characters mechanically. When I made her and started levelling... I chose to start in Cordor. Because I don't like Skal, and am comfortable leveling in Cordor. But... I could not find a SINGLE person to level with until Level 12. No one was interested or close enough to my starting level. I only was able to level because of my summons.
So basically, you have to beg people to help you with the ingredients to all of these... because they're not easily available or attainable for non-melee builds at level 3-6. And you can't go level without the sequencer buffs.... so you're stuck. And that's not fun.. at all.
A level 3 character is not going to be able to cast improved invisibility, spell resistance, or negative energy protection as is ...And you couldn't use shield potions on summons, so that's actually a boost.
I do get the complaints about the gold sink though. Gold piles are not class related on Arelith despite popular belief. It comes down to shops, appraise, and search. If you got time to craft and keep your shop filled, you are going to be rich. If you have a combination of search and appraise, you are going to be rich. For example, if I spent 100k on consumables for a melee character to level them up, it sounds like a lot. But the crew I spent a lot of time with toward the end of my time on arelith had 10 mil plus in the bank each in some cases, and that's not because they only had to spend 20k on consumables or whatever. They just chose to play the game in a way that maxed out their gold intake, something I disagreed with personally because it made playing with them feel like a grind. The fact that they were three wizards and a bard really has nothing to do with it, save they used those builds to max out appraise and search at the cost of raw pvp power because they didn't care about that.
Babylon System is the Vampire wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 3:54 pm
A level 3 character is not going to be able to cast improved invisibility, spell resistance, or negative energy protection as is ...And you couldn't use shield potions on summons, so that's actually a boost.
You can only use one sequencer. So while you might have used wands before to supplement spells you didn't have you can't even do that. Or if you have multiple casters in one party, you can't work together to empower your summons to work together. A level 3 character also won't be getting spell resistance on their summons. Unless they have powerful friends giving them things made with epic chest items.
So you're choosing between the arcane, divine, and druidic buffs. (Making Divine laughably bad).
Arcane
+6 ac, 50% concealment
Druidic
+5 ac, +2 ab
Divine
+1 ab, +2 ac, +4 vs. banishment, immune to neg
Overall, I think lesser sequencers are great for leveling since you've now got a reliable way to apply these buffs without consuming needed spellslots. They're also pretty comprable to what a mundane might spend on consumables — except, 10x more efficient since they trigger off of player level and not caster level. You can make these with 1 tradeskill point since the DC is 15. The most optimal for leveling, the arcane sequencer, only needs 1 Scroll of Mage Armor (50g), Shield(50g) and Improved Invisibility(700g or cheaper if scribed yourself), 1 Casting Mold (DC1), 1 Lesser Catalyst (DC 19, 1000g). Total base cost assuming worst scenario = 1800g.
That is *a lot* for a level 3 character not leveling in skal. How are they going to get money if they can't complete writs because they don't have sequencers and can't buff their summons? Only to get immediately squished.
Not everyone knows mechanics or how to build. And this will seriously hurt new players trying to play the game.
I understand nerfing *epic* summons. Like LG Gate spell. But many, many non-melee casters rely on conjuration summons to even exist. And early game, it is hard to get gold. Basically you must rely on others to help you.
My current character is a caster favored soul. Of course she is not a mechanically viable build. She was made to support other characters mechanically. When I made her and started levelling... I chose to start in Cordor. Because I don't like Skal, and am comfortable leveling in Cordor. But... I could not find a SINGLE person to level with until Level 12. No one was interested or close enough to my starting level. I only was able to level because of my summons.
So basically, you have to beg people to help you with the ingredients to all of these... because they're not easily available or attainable for non-melee builds at level 3-6. And you can't go level without the sequencer buffs.... so you're stuck. And that's not fun.. at all.
A level 3 character is not going to be able to cast improved invisibility, spell resistance, or negative energy protection as is ...And you couldn't use shield potions on summons, so that's actually a boost.
You absolutely could / can use shield potions on your summons.
".. the other number that isn't 18." - Jack Oat
".. but- someone is still pumping the brakes sometimes, right? ...right?" - Batcountry
Babylon System is the Vampire wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 3:54 pm
A level 3 character is not going to be able to cast improved invisibility, spell resistance, or negative energy protection as is ...And you couldn't use shield potions on summons, so that's actually a boost.
You can only use one sequencer. So while you might have used wands before to supplement spells you didn't have you can't even do that. Or if you have multiple casters in one party, you can't work together to empower your summons to work together. A level 3 character also won't be getting spell resistance on their summons. Unless they have powerful friends giving them things made with epic chest items.
So you're choosing between the arcane, divine, and druidic buffs. (Making Divine laughably bad).
His point was that a level 3 character couldn't afford item x, and I was saying that a level 3 character wouldn't get those buffs anyways. I think you missed that part, probably because I was lazy narrowing down the quote to what I was responding too
I must have missed it, where did it say that you can only use 1 sequencer at a time? I've not found a source on single-target healing not being able to be used on summons either.
Party in the forest at midnight wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 4:16 pm
I must have missed it, where did it say that you can only use 1 sequencer at a time? I've not found a source on single-target healing not being able to be used on summons either.
Irongron wrote:
New Items:
* Casts at Players Level.
* Activated Item, Touch, Instant.
* Can only be used for summons (NOT henchmen) * Only one set of these buffs can exist at a time on a target.
* Lessers Craft: DC - 15, CP 40
* Greaters Craft: DC - 45, CP 120
* Each sequencer will have 20 uses (30 for greater)
* All spells cast by sequencers are done so as if affected by the Extend Spell feat.
Irongron wrote:
New Items:
* Casts at Players Level.
* Activated Item, Touch, Instant.
* Can only be used for summons (NOT henchmen) * Only one set of these buffs can exist at a time on a target.
* Lessers Craft: DC - 15, CP 40
* Greaters Craft: DC - 45, CP 120
* Each sequencer will have 20 uses (30 for greater)
* All spells cast by sequencers are done so as if affected by the Extend Spell feat.
Thank you.
Wow, the cleric one is really awful if it can't be stacked with any of the others.
I also noticed that the number of uses has gone up, so that is good at least.
Babylon System is the Vampire wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 4:27 pm
Wait, you can use it twenty times for 1800 gold? Haha, what are you guys complaining about the cost for then.
That has been changed, and the original uses per day was set at 10. And it would cast at your CL, meaning that a level 5 character would get 5 minutes worth of shield and imp invis per use.
Last edited by Aren on Mon Jul 11, 2022 4:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
".. the other number that isn't 18." - Jack Oat
".. but- someone is still pumping the brakes sometimes, right? ...right?" - Batcountry
I think that the worst aspect of this change is that it removes a lot of depth from the freedom to buff one's "pet" with some creativity. Before you had means to use potions, wands, your own spells, or other consumables. Now you only have these sequencers, while only the few spells that were specifically meant for summons and the aoe remain. It is not entirely one-dimensional, but at the same time I do not think this simplification is a good one, or that it is well suited to Neverwinter Nights as a game system.
Moreover it is way too indiscriminate, hitting all summons at once, without considering that some of them are not great to begin with, and probably not worth using one of these sequencers on. In the end, time is money, so it makes sense to have sequencers as an option for those who don't want to buff them for some minutes. But nerfing the single offenders seemed really the correct way to go.
Party in the forest at midnight wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 4:22 pm
Wow, the cleric one is really awful if it can't be stacked with any of the others.
I think that they are trying to wrap their head around how each of these respectable summoner classes are able to buff their summons. The divine one does not seem to be giving any stat boosts, because spells like aura of vitality and prayer exist.
Also note that the Reliquary Codex (greater divine summon sequencer) is supposed to allow the cleric to give spell resistance and true seeing to all three of their vampires at once as an instant action. That doesn't sound so bad to me at all!
Last edited by -XXX- on Mon Jul 11, 2022 4:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Party in the forest at midnight wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 4:22 pm
Wow, the cleric one is really awful if it can't be stacked with any of the others.
I think that they are trying to wrap their head around how each of these respectable summoner classes are able to buff their summons. The divine one does not seem to be giving any stat boosts, because aura of vitality and prayer spells exist.
Also note that the Reliquary Codex (greater divine summon sequencer) is supposed to allow the cleric to give spell resistance and true seeing onto all three of their vampires as an instant action. That doesn't sound so bad to me at all!
I’d would not get my hopes up that the Spell Resistance sequencer gets to keep spell resistance.
Last edited by Aren on Mon Jul 11, 2022 4:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
".. the other number that isn't 18." - Jack Oat
".. but- someone is still pumping the brakes sometimes, right? ...right?" - Batcountry
This is going to make the Gate spell even stronger and the other summons less so. Now you can’t just wof or banish that deva, without spending a turn breaching it first.. if you don’t it’s now super tanky with SR or mantle, alongside premonition etc.
Aren wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 4:35 pm
I’d would not get my hopes up, that the Spell Resistance sequencer gets to keep spell resistance.
I could see it still being a thing if summon sequencers had been a subject of some cooldown that'd kick in upon them getting dispelled.
Otherwise you could just wait for the expected SR dispelling mord and then quickly overtake the subsequent WoF with a second instant use of the Reliquary Codex.
Morgy wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 4:38 pm
This is going to make the Gate spell even stronger and the other summons less so. Now you can’t just wof or banish that deva, without spending a turn breaching it first.. if you don’t it’s now super tanky with SR or mantle, alongside premonition etc.
Gate didn’t need this buff for pve or pvp.
Gate summons (with the exception of the slaad) have a native SR that makes WoF scrolls unreliable already.
Last edited by -XXX- on Mon Jul 11, 2022 4:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The greater cleric one is good, I could see pvpers using that one exclusively. I should clarify, the lesser cleric one is horrible. I don't really get the reasoning behind it. I avoid using prayer on a caster cleric because it is a group aggro and will pull off the summon (or off of other players even). And only certain domains get aura of vitality. Similarly every time I hear devs say "Don't worry, clerics are going to get mass animal spells!" they always follow it up with saying it will be tied to specific domains. Balancing an entire class around taking domains that give mass animal spells and aura of vitality is really weird.
Maybe part of our issue is knowing just what the powers that be are trying to accomplish exactly. Are you trying to make buffing summons more convenient, or inconvenient? Are you trying to make summons more reliable, or less reliable? I'm trying to pinpoint the exact reason for this change and why it absolutely needed to happen.
Grinding for gold and items is already tedious, but now we have to grind just so that we can grind. The people that seem to be most on board with this change are the few who know this server inside and out and ache for a little challenge. I can only speak on my perspective but I do not relish the opportunity to take more steps to do the basics. I avoid arcane casters as is because of Spell Components, now, until something more feasible is worked out, I can avoid casters entirely. People play video games to take a break from their daily grind, this change turned playing into more of a chore. I picked the right time to roll my caster and pick up a big sword.
A new player coming to this server is going to get increasingly flustered with all these micro changes to established gameplay.
Draco Deleteur Dreadlord Lucius Blackhand - "All is as Bane wills it."
My favorite part about the 'But the AoE spells will still work!' and the argument of 'We're really doing this to give players more options and spell slots to use!'
I sort of immediately call bullshit.
Okay so I get those level 2 spell slots to cast... web. Or searing light. Or acid arrow (Which I could cast unlimited anyway).
And all I need to give up for this privilege are my 6th and 7th spell slots. You know. Those spell slots that I can use for firebrand. IGMS. Damage spells that actually do damage.
Aren wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 4:35 pm
I’d would not get my hopes up, that the Spell Resistance sequencer gets to keep spell resistance.
I could see it still being a thing if summon sequencers had been a subject of some cooldown that'd kick in upon them getting dispelled.
Otherwise you could just wait for the expected SR dispelling mord and then quickly overtake the subsequent WoF with a second instant use of the Reliquary Codex.
Morgy wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 4:38 pm
This is going to make the Gate spell even stronger and the other summons less so. Now you can’t just wof or banish that deva, without spending a turn breaching it first.. if you don’t it’s now super tanky with SR or mantle, alongside premonition etc.
Gate didn’t need this buff for pve or pvp.
Gate summons (with the exception of the slaad) have a native SR that makes WoF scrolls unreliable already.
With the prevalence of loremasters, these scrolls work most of the time. Also, 42 SR is almost a total guarantee they won’t work, PLUS the other wards on top. I think the point stands that they didn’t need this.
