Summon Buff Changes

[98lbs of sad carryweight]

As an aside, personally I'd still like to see a druid path that does without wildshapes, as from an RP perspective, I've not any interest in playing a class that runs around hulk smashing things while in an altogether absurd form. I'd love to see a version of druid that's solely focused on spellcasting. Right now, most of their spells seem superfluous. It's the shapes that put me entirely off playing druids, however powerful they might be.

Isn't that class the shaman?

That said, a lot of good feedback here, I hope that is considered.
I've ran after my summons unbuffed now and they just get shredded even if I cast through all my spellslots, which leads to me resting mid-dungeon and that leads to me getting curb stomped by RnG.
Depending on how tedious it is to craft those much needed consumables it might not really be worthwhile given the short duration of spells and so on.

In all honesty, I am all for for making mundies and summoners on a somewhat equal footing for the PvE experience but outside of casting a 30dmg cantrip what can summoners do?
And those ellusive changes that may be in the future arent really assuring since that also can just... not happen.
Use for lower tier runics is great, its just not a thing you'd craft commonly or in high frequency since even if you run a runic a day - unless you do it solo that might be one sequencer. I assume that would use one charge, you run at a deficit almost always.

How about its similar to how archers treat their arrows with stable and unstable templates?

I dont want to be feeling more useless as caster who is damned to be a hastebot because I am not a infi-caster of the new flashy classes. Atleast my summon used to be a contributing member of society til now.

[fading]

I genuinely don't believe nerfing summon creature spells will be inductive to a better, more fun, experience for anyone. These summons were strong, but they certainly weren't unreasonably OP. We all know the problem was Planar Conduit, and I sincerely don't understand why we couldn't just nerf that?

Is caster gameplay boring? Honestly, yes. I gravitate towards casters because I enjoy the RP of the class, but the gameplay has always been dull. I also think it's great as an option for new and casual players of lower skill who still want to enjoy the game. I wish we had alternative paths that focused on more active gameplay for casters, rather than this update. Summons are still necessary for casters, and while you, and I, may find that gameplay tedious, a lot of people really enjoyed it and it's not fair on them to have their chosen playstyle nerfed because we don't like it.

If you wish to still go ahead with the update, then I'd suggest that the basic sequencer function like craft arrow bundle, it will give new players a lot less headache, and make new caster characters less painful in the beginning levels. Also SoF for the cleric sequencer, it's a must, for whatever reason the cleric sequencer seems terrible for pve, and decent for pvp, and I don't think that was the intention.

[Ledornius]

My fear is that what's the point of my two(supposed to be three soon) warlock summoning feats my infernalist has? I tested this by having my summon unwarded for a few dungeons and he was getting crushed before I could either.. choose two options: spam fireball or eldritch blast. Not being able to buff my summons doesn't give me slots to use for anything else. All it does is make me lose more gold I'm not great at making on these consumable items, while using the same spells I always have for fights. Now with the downside of no capable tank, since if I'm in a group no way you can use fireball for example, so I'm delegated to one whole button. This seems like a huge downgrade and I'd have to basically rebuild just to try and get more eldritch blast feats.

[Security_Blanket]

Removals in this thread have all been my doing, not any developers or Irongron.

Posts that attack developers, admins, decisions, other players, etc. will be removed. Continuing to do so, after warnings, can result in the removal of forum privileges (which does extend into Discord as well).

I suppose we can just trust what you deem as an "attack" then. Maybe you consider this an "attack" on you and therefore needs to be deleted. Censoring opinions is another animal entirely and a very slippery slope.

Back to the change, it's probably a sound approach to an ongoing problem but needs tinkering in the way its executed. I especially like what this could mean for necromancers in the future. On top of those sequencers you can make, maybe have some crappy sequencers that low levels can buy in a store that aren't not solely dependent on the crafting system. Just a simple, cat's grace, bull's strength, mage armor, that a level 3 can get by with until they reach a high enough level to make something better.

[Eyeliner]

If you wish to still go ahead with the update, then I'd suggest that the basic sequencer function like craft arrow bundle, it will give new players a lot less headache, and make new caster characters less painful in the beginning levels. Also SoF for the cleric sequencer, it's a must, for whatever reason the cleric sequencer seems terrible for pve, and decent for pvp, and I don't think that was the intention.

Or don't require sequencers on lower level summons at all. Start the requirement at 6th or 7th circle.

[Naiinara]

Are these runic sequencers expected to be used often or just only situational?

I can see the greater ones being more situational for sure, but if the orb cradle one is intended for repetitive use it feels like the crafting ingredients are too much. Running around looking at the multitude shops or asking favors from my characters friends is going to get repetitively boring just like casting all those buffs each time was. Feels like the lesser one should either be easier to craft or just also available at NPC merchants, like portal lenses.

Or if mage armor shield improved invisibility ultravision are what you're considering base line tolerable buffs (at least for arcane stuff. I didn't look too hard at the cleric stuffs), allow those to be still cast as an option instead of the orb use.

I've been here awhile now...used to be summons were horrible even with buffs, then there was a turn based dragon knight for awhile. I guess my point is this same struggle has been going on awhile now. Perhaps this is the idea that fixes it. I hope so. I just don't want the solution to be tediously onerous either.

[Xerah]

Removals in this thread have all been my doing, not any developers or Irongron.

Posts that attack developers, admins, decisions, other players, etc. will be removed. Continuing to do so, after warnings, can result in the removal of forum privileges (which does extend into Discord as well).

I suppose we can just trust what you deem as an "attack" then. Maybe you consider this an "attack" on you and therefore needs to be deleted. Censoring opinions is another animal entirely and a very slippery slope.

You can't hide "personal opinions" behind attacks. Censoring opinions is not a slippery slope as well. There is no freedom of speech or first amendment rights as many of us aren't from USA (nor does the first amendment even allow you to say whatever you want to in public/semi-public locations).

We are also not going to list out every possible thing that can be an attack.

If you need to discuss forum moderation, then message the moderation team, not within a thread. Please remain on topic.

[Zariu]

As an aside, personally I'd still like to see a druid path that does without wildshapes, as from an RP perspective, I've not any interest in playing a class that runs around hulk smashing things while in an altogether absurd form. I'd love to see a version of druid that's solely focused on spellcasting. Right now, most of their spells seem superfluous. It's the shapes that put me entirely off playing druids, however powerful they might be.

Isn't that class the shaman?

That said, a lot of good feedback here, I hope that is considered.
I've ran after my summons unbuffed now and they just get shredded even if I cast through all my spellslots, which leads to me resting mid-dungeon and that leads to me getting curb stomped by RnG.
Depending on how tedious it is to craft those much needed consumables it might not really be worthwhile given the short duration of spells and so on.

In all honesty, I am all for for making mundies and summoners on a somewhat equal footing for the PvE experience but outside of casting a 30dmg cantrip what can summoners do?
And those ellusive changes that may be in the future arent really assuring since that also can just... not happen.
Use for lower tier runics is great, its just not a thing you'd craft commonly or in high frequency since even if you run a runic a day - unless you do it solo that might be one sequencer. I assume that would use one charge, you run at a deficit almost always.

How about its similar to how archers treat their arrows with stable and unstable templates?

I dont want to be feeling more useless as caster who is damned to be a hastebot because I am not a infi-caster of the new flashy classes. Atleast my summon used to be a contributing member of society til now.

This post so much, I was slightly hopeful when Irongron mentioned waiting on spell changes, but the spell changes have nothing to do with any of this. When I took on overhauling the portrait pack for Arelith, because I was getting rid of so much I knew I also had to give people something back in return. And so I cropped around 800 new portraits by hand. Now not everyone was happy, I'm sure there are still people not happy with it. But in taking away I also tried to give something in return.

To draw a parallel, this is like if I had only taken away a ton of old portraits. Arelith is basically asking me and a lot of others who enjoy casters to playtest a massive nerf. We or the dev team could have play tested this very easily in a non-forced way by just testing summons without buffs or using a particular list of buffs. And this is where I believe this change diverts from loremageddeon, as that likely would have been much harder to test without going live.

This release didn't have to come now, it should have come when many other changes were occurring to spell casting to change how casters can work. Because being asked to playtest something so horribly broken really isn't fun or great, or what I want to do with my free time.

[Irongron]

Are these runic sequencers expected to be used often or just only situational?

I can see the greater ones being more situational for sure, but if the orb cradle one is intended for repetitive use it feels like the crafting ingredients are too much. Running around looking at the multitude shops or asking favors from my characters friends is going to get repetitively boring just like casting all those buffs each time was. Feels like the lesser one should either be easier to craft or just also available at NPC merchants, like portal lenses.

Or if mage armor shield improved invisibility ultravision are what you're considering base line tolerable buffs (at least for arcane stuff. I didn't look too hard at the cleric stuffs), allow those to be still cast as an option instead of the orb use.

I've been here awhile now...used to be summons were horrible even with buffs, then there was a turn based dragon knight for awhile. I guess my point is this same struggle has been going on awhile now. Perhaps this is the idea that fixes it. I hope so. I just don't want the solution to be tediously onerous either.

I think this is a fair point. The ingredients for Orb Cradle, at least, has been adjusted in line with feedback, and the charges on each have been increased. For comparison, the greater arcane sequencer is equal to 180 spells, including 30 casts of premonition, that's a big deal. (The lesser is 80 casts).

With these items also appearing loot, I hope the supply will gradually ramp up, and may eventually prove cheaper to purchase than the wands, scroll and spell components required to do the same. Supply, at least, is something we can easily control.

[Irongron]

maybe have some crappy sequencers that low levels can buy in a store that aren't not solely dependent on the crafting system.

This is a great idea, and one I didn't consider.

[Brandon Steel]

I already said this and I think it’s been sprinkled here and there as well, but I don’t really care about the balance of this change because I do not have the experience and playtime that a majority of others do. There’s probably logical reasons on both sides to like and dislike it and from my meager understanding of mechanics I can see points to both sides as well.

However, what annoys me is that it’s yet another craftable item that is pretty much necessary to play a class. I really abhor the crafting system, which may not be a common sentiment, but I just find nothing enjoyable about going through a fairly cumbersome menu and hunting down materials all over the place constantly. Buying the items is completely possible and mostly my go-to, but that’s a gold drain as well as the other multiple items you already have to purchase. At the least, the majority of this was saved for the later levels, where it matters much more, especially in PVP. Now any caster class is pretty much screwed into having to purchase these new items to the ever growing list to have summons that are worth anything, even at these low levels. Arcane casters already have to mess around with spell components to even cast above a certain level, now they need another craftable to do both the early and late game. It’s just more irritating and honestly it’s hard for me to keep up with a lot of the changes to what should be simple, fundamental things. I really can’t imagine what it is like for new players who jump into the server. There is just so much crap that you pretty much have to buy, especially if you have issues leveling and can’t find people around the same level or area. It’s just how it is and I’ve begrudgingly accepted that, but man it’s gets irritating to see more new items added to make it necessary.

[Ledornius]

For example, my tier 5 summon is a level 20 outsider.

If stats aren't allowed to be divested, I can delete this part for feedback purposes I think it's needed.

STR: 27
DEX: 20
CON: 20
INT: 22
WIS: 22
CHA: 20
AC: 34(38 hasted)
HP: 350
AB: 35/30/25/20

This is with Conjuration and Greater Conjuration spell focus feats but no buffs. It's okay, it'll survive.. a little bit. But I tested this on live without any buffs against for example, spriggans down in the underdark. He was getting CHUNKED down by them because of no concealment or extra ac.

Warded with what I have available only as my warlock which is

Mage Armor (Non pacted)
Endurance for a +6 or 7 (If I roll lucky on empower since not pacted)
Grace for a +6 or +7 (If I roll lucky on empower since not pacted)
Strength +7, Can infini cast bulls so that's fine.
Magic circle vs alignment x2
Improved Invisbility (Non pacted)
Ultravision
See Invisbility
Haste (Probably not counting as the pacted one considering I have the free one on myself)

With those buffs, it has...

STR: 34
DEX: 27
CON: 27
INT: 22
WIS: 22
CHA: 20
AC: 41(45 hasted)
HP: 410
AB: 39/34/29/24
50% Concealment

As you can see, with buffs it gets an extra 7 less AC, 4 less AB, 60 HP less, along with saves being worse in fortitude and reflex.

Try to ask any mundane fighter to go into a dungeon with 7 less AC and no concealment, and you'll see them crumble much the same. At level content my summon CAN NOT handle things without me spamming heal kits. Wards are the only way that allow it to have some semblance of a chance.

I'm an infernalist warlock, I literally get Greater Summons for free as part of my pact. I am MEANT to have my summons and buff them. Are my summons going to be buffed in accordance with the fact it's no longer capable to reasonably maintain them?

[-XXX-]

Why not just straight up buff the summon creature I-VI line of spells along with undead tiers 1-4 so that they'd perform adequately for lvl 3-12 PvE content even in their unbuffed form?

[Irongron]

Why not just straight up buff the summon creature I-VI line of spells along with undead tiers 1-4 so that they'd perform adequately for lvl 3-12 PvE content even in their unbuffed form?

We will definitely need to buff some of the creatures, especially in the Summon Creature line.

[Peachoo]

All I forsee to this change is that ,it is yet again, something else that is going to be a major time sink that will cater to people who
have the ability to play this game 5+ hours a day.

I don't feel anyone should be forced to utilize the crafting system just to play the game. Most of us have maybe 1 hour to 3 hours to reasonably play the game. Longer than that affects our social and work lives. It's just unreasonable to ask half the player base who inevitably will make characters affected by these changes to *waste* all of the time they have grinding for resources or gold just to make items just to do writs. None of those things, except for writs, usually involves roleplay. And even when it does? It's not riveting or fun rp.

It really feels like this is going to be yet another thing that has nothing to do with roleplay that will take forever to get around because it'll be hard to get sequencers/items/ingredients in the first place.

Changing the summons, okay fine. But please don't tie this to crafting.

Not everyone finds crafting fun. I find it to be insanely boring. There is nothing more boring than over and over again going out and getting supplies just to have no roleplay and create it at a crafting station.

It would be way better if mechanical changes like this were geared more towards supporting role play rather than mindless grinding.

[AstralUniverse]

I actually like that casters need to spend gold on something and time on crafting (or more gold on buying those things from shops). For long time it was mundane characters who were the ones to complain that they cant save gold and all of their income is spent on consumables and mid-game gear just so they can do writs. So I think it's fair that casters should be also in that boat, one way or another. We just need to find that fine tuning where a caster that lvls from 3 to 30 spends on sequencers no more than a mundane spends on zoo potions and haste/ii/nep/fom wands. maybe we can finally remove spell components from the game if casters fall off too drastically in leveling economics.

[Allafif]

The revised sequencer materials are much better, but I'm not a fan of the lesser divine, which is already rather situational with a high opportunity cost, needing iron ingots (i.e. precious COAL) instead of chunks (which I often don't even bother mining).

You're already mixing the iron with clay, oil, and holy water, so it's believable to start it out in the soft form as some sort of alternate holy smithing refinement.

I'd also love to see the lesser versions on NPC vendors for those who want to spend gold instead of time.

[98lbs of sad carryweight]

I actually like that casters need to spend gold on something and time on crafting (or more gold on buying those things from shops). For long time it was mundane characters who were the ones to complain that they cant save gold and all of their income is spent on consumables and mid-game gear just so they can do writs. So I think it's fair that casters should be also in that boat, one way or another. We just need to find that fine tuning where a caster that lvls from 3 to 30 spends on sequencers no more than a mundane spends on zoo potions and haste/ii/nep/fom wands. maybe we can finally remove spell components from the game if casters fall off too drastically in leveling economics.

That isnt even nearly as equivalent. A mundie can buff out from NPC shops or a caster taking a crafting feat or relatively easy crafting for pots from herbalism etc.
Sequencers are like losing all your containers every 3 writs and having to re-craft your greensteel sword every 5 writs while half your armor is lost when you crash.

[DarkHollow]

I still do not understand what this is supposed to fix.

If it's meant to counter balance the fact casters have nothing to spend on or how tedious it is to rely on summons as a caster because you can't rely on anything else, let's see why that is by steps:

Spending

Non-casters spend money on:
-Armor (Necessary)
-Weapon (Necessary)
-Essences (Semi-necessary)
-Double statting (Necessary, you don't need more than Main Stat/Secondary stat for leveling)
-Heal kits (Necessary)
-Potions (Necessary)

Casters spend money on:
-Caster gear like staves, robes, etc (Not necessary)
-Heal kits (Necessary, not necessary depending on caster)
-Double statting (Necessary, you can risk going single stat if you're feeling lucky)
-Potions (Not necessary but helpful for maxing out stats or you can't cast)
-Spell Components/Piety (Necessary in time or gold, some classes don't require either)

Discounting maxing out gear which you only need for PvP and the costs are the same with the difference being that non casters scale better from maxing out, the cost difference comes down from Armor and Weapons. Steel serves no function because you can do +1 AC on any gear, mithril is overpriced/too rare for the level range you need it, and adamantine costs a LOT for recipes that demand troves of it. Casters' crafted gear is a +2 to a stat or spell slots in comparison, not fundamental to making the casters work because these are diminishing gains, while +1 AC or AB is incredible for other classes. However once half casters/non casters get that adamantine armor and damask sword, they have it, they don't need constant expensive maintenance.

Casters and PvE

Why do casters rely on summons if its tedious? Because anything else is unviable, casters do not have sufficient slots (even with epic gear) to clear through writs by damaging spells alone, let alone have the survivability. A halfcaster/non caster relies on their AB and AC, and because casters don't typically have either of those they need to have a summon to do it for them. Even if casters had a steady supply of damage, most of them lack the tankiness to do it, even with a summon it will stop mattering because a summon can't guard the caster and the AI targets the lowest AC target that gets aggro.


This Summon Nerf (because there is no other way of calling it) adds extra chores for casters, either in obtaining gold or getting the materials just so they can function. A half caster/non caster when they have all their gear in order just need to buy cheap potions, heal kits and they're ready to rumble, a caster will always need to sink time and or gold for piety/spell components and now to get buffs that are not as good as they once were for their summons.

In PvE, it is absolutely horrible to not have Greater Conjuration while leveling, the mobs are/were "balanced" around casters having summons a tier above they should have, leveling casters without it is awful. Even some dungeons are difficult to do with epic summons if not outright impossible and I'm not including epic dungeons. The problem summon was Planar Conduit (which remains entirely untouched as of yet), so now every other summon suffers. Instead of slotting buffs for my summons, I'm going to slot more summons because they'll be a lot more vulnerable, there are scant few spells worth slotting below that because low level spells that are not buffs are typically worthless in PvE and PvP, its own can of worms.

Finally, I find it unjust to call "firm rejections" unhelpful feedback, it is feedback that the change isn't needing tweaking but rather a removal/reversal. Not every change is good, and this is absolutely not a good change. The best feedback I can give is to reverse the nerf and keep the sequencers (provided the more powerful ones are nerfed, spell mantle that lasts minutes is ludicrous for PvP).

[-XXX-]

* Sequencers will only be craftable by casters related to their school of magic, but useable by all, without requiring ranks in UMD or Lore.

I'd consider allowing commonners to craft all of them. This seems like the sort of thing that might be right up their alley

[Arienette]

[
No. Irongron has been quietly editing what was originally posted without making mention of the fact he's changed it anywhere.

Of course not every decision I make in regard to server mechanics will be popular, and I knew very well that this one would push those very same buttons as the Lore update, which I remain proud of, and the development and diversity space it opened up afterwards. By far the largest parallel I have seen with the lore update (aside from the anger) is the comment 'Yeah, it's a nice idea, but it should be an alternative and not a replacement'. This one I won't be acting on, for the same reason I didn't with lore and scrolls; it would very much defeat the purpose of the change.

Will I be as proud of this change? Or will I have finally broken the server with another rash decision? TIme will tell, certainly. Of course players are totally free to dislike a fundamental change like this, or to decry it as bad game design, but do keep in mind that while that opinion that may well yet prove valid in restrospect, at this stage it isn't actually constructive feedback, given this is most definitely happening, today.

I do see the parallels between this change and the UMD/Lore changes. But this change hits a bit harder and is harder to cope with on existing characters.

When the Lore change hit, my response to it was pretty simple. At the time, and today, I have no desire to build a character to hit 80 Lore to use top tier scrolls. Taking 33 ranks, plus ESF, putting Lore on my gear, and all the various things required to "make up for" what was lost with the UMD/Lore change is just not something I am interested in doing.

So I just... don't! I run characters with 15 or 35 Lore and call it good, basically not using scrolls at all except for the occasional Lesser Mind Blank, etc. At the time this opened up some doors for existing characters. Like re-leveling your 20/7/3 weapon master into a 25/5 version because having that UMD dip became much less of a "requirement" as one example.

My response to this change will be the same; I will just not interact with it. I will not use long-term summons that require buffs. My ranger will be rolled, re-made, or re-leveled into a different build (i.e. not a "Beastmaster") and the Animal Companion will become an RP tool and perhaps pull it out for boss fights as a sacrificial distraction. My Blackguard's Fiend will become a PvP tool only that I summon the moment a fight starts. Its limited un-buffed utility will not make it worth the social/PvP liability that it is on the Surface to just... run around with helping me kill mobs.

Going forward, I will avoid classes and builds that make extensive use of summons. I'll make a Warpriest instead of a traditional Battle Cleric, I'll make a Spellsword instead of a wizard. I'll make a BG dip Weapon Master instead of a Deep BG. In fact, avoiding summon-heavy builds will open up some doors for future characters I play.

But that doesn't do much to soften the blow for my current characters. I have a "Battle Favored Soul" that I am playing right now. With this change, I would be happy as could be to drop SF, GSF, ESF Conjuration, Planar Conduit and another feat and replace it all with something else like the Abjuration line or even EVO and HB/GRUIN.

The problem is, it is extremely common for people to make such characters with SF and GSF Conjuration at level 1. So I, and players that feel the same way, are "locked in" to a Conjuration playstyle we no longer want to engage in. Does summoning becoming unattractive maybe open so doors for different playstyles on future characters? Sure! But that doesnt do anything for current existing characters.

I am willing to bet that the majority of characters with a focus in Conjuration have one or two of those feats at level 1. Which makes it impossible for them to "opt out" of these changes.

[TooManyPotatoes]

We've been given just 24 hours to respond with meaningful feedback before the change goes live. It's no wonder the main reaction is frustration.

There needs to be a breakdown of what every summon currently does under various buffs and with the new buffs. Proposals made for what is a fair statline and each summon looked at in light of this. This should not have fallen upon the playerbase to do with 24 hours notice. If such stats and changes had been released alongside it, it would have at least tempered reactions somewhat.

There was all the time in the world to at least make an attempt and instead it's been rolled out without apparently any consideration of the above.

[Aradin]

* Sequencers will only be craftable by casters related to their school of magic, but useable by all, without requiring ranks in UMD or Lore.

I'd consider allowing commoners to craft all of them. This seems like the sort of thing that might be right up their alley

I'd agree with this, or just allowing them to be craftable by any spellcasting class (in the same vein also agree with Security Blanket's idea of having low-level sequencers available for sale by NPC vendors). I'm all for class and race-specific recipes for niche items. But if these sequencers are intended to be a staple item for all casters in the way spell components are, then I'm wary of gating their creation behind specific classes. Spell components are something able to be stomached by most of the playerbase because they're widely available in shops all across the isle, and a big part of that is due to anyone with points in alchemy being able to make them.

I think with the requirements the way they are, we'll experience some significant player dissatisfaction in not being able to find the one you want for sale anywhere.

[CptnCandyass]

My biggest issue with this update is that it does nothing but indirectly buff Blackguard. That's a good thing for me, but it means nothing to casters. High level casters can easily shill out 1-5k for sequencers. They've been shilling out up to 20k-30k total for individual wands in the past, now it's all been condensed into a couple easy to create wands, and their summons still solo the same dungeons with ease. If anything, you made it easier and quicker for them to buff their summons. It seems like the entire point of this update was to cripple casters from being able to solo dungeons with their summons, but it literally does not do that. 1-5k is nothing.


So, what is the point of forcing this update out when it does nothing to fix the presented issue? Otherwise, thanks for the Blackguard buff I guess.

[Northern Kings]

As if to further show how much of this is damage control.

Casting spell mantles on yourself now causes buffs to just. Go away.

Edit: If this could be looked into it would be appreciated - it is likely an unintended bug if it is behaving this way.

OP Edit: I don't believe that suggesting that changes were forced or rushed is impolite and are in fact incredibly indicative of people not taking the time to test things or do things properly.

Reason for Edit: Staff decided to edit this

Staff Edit 2.0: Your tone is impolite. Since you want to make a spectacle of it - I already banned one of your accounts, stop coming under others. You are not welcome on the server today, tomorrow or ever again for your poor conduct. [Spyre]