Summon Buff Changes

[Sombricimos]

It actually will stop ranger from being able to buff his animal.

You are correct, all I did was read the discord announcement which stated "summons" but if it's explicitly mentionned on the wiki that animal compagnion were targeted as well, then I take back my question/complaint and call it a "My bad" moment

[Irongron]

I've got a question, and I hope you don't take this the wrong way because I'm not asking this in bad faith and I genuinely want to hear your response.

No problem. Classes, once released are a pain to change, requiring relevels or remakes. Consumables, on the other hand are easily adjusted. We'll make plenty of adjustments to these going forward, but the core restriction, at the heart of this (no longer being able to buff summons) will go unchanged.

This is a bitter pill to swallow, and I don't think a forewarning would have done anything to lessen the vitriol directed at me these last days.

It's also simply a step towards a broader rebalancing in regards to summons, which realistically can only be achieved in stages.

[Naghast]

The one bit of feedback i can give here is-

maybe drop the class restriction for making the sequencers? or maybe, duplicate some of the recipes to a few different crafting professions to allow for more than just /ONE/ correct option?

like, this effectively tunnels, for example, wizards, into grabbing arts, from previously being tunneled into arts /OR/ alchemy.
this, let's say, could be duplicated into alchemy, as, like i've said, arcane casters are already tunneled into either of these professions for the sake of spell components.

divine casters, into arts as well.
maybe the recipes could be copied to something else too? like, carpentry? maybe alchemy as well?

druids, into carpentry. or herbalism if we count just the lesser sequencer.
maybe throw that into some other craft too?

let's not limit player craftskill selection even more? at least, please, allow /THAT/ much freedom.

[Nurel]

maybe drop the class restriction for making the sequencers?

You can make any sequencer you like regardless of class, provided you have the corresponding Tradeskill and materials

The sequencers have been made active in the crafting menus, go wild!

[Naghast]

maybe drop the class restriction for making the sequencers?

You can make any sequencer you like regardless of class, provided you have the corresponding Tradeskill and materials

The sequencers have been made active in the crafting menus, go wild!

Are you sure? because, uh



this, kinda speaks otherwise.


EDIT

so does this.

[Hazard]

So one can summon a human and cast buffs on them no problem, but for some reason a boar is immune to them. Are all summons now immune to all magic then? RP wise this makes NO sense.

I am not talking about balance here, nor do I claim to know how to fix summons because people think they are broken or whatnot.

Just stating that on this RP server I can now not cast my own spells on my own summons because....... reasons? It is not understandable.

My character has no reason to not be able to. Just some message that pops up on the window that says "this spell cant be cast on summons." Why? Is some deity preventing me from doing it? Is all of Arelith an anti buffing your summons magic zone?

Again I am not speaking about balance. Just how it feels as a player.

Yeah, it's these kind of things that bother me too.
Jarring mechanics really take you out of the RP.
That is my biggest concern with these kinds of approaches.

[Nurel]

Are you sure? because, uh

No, you are absolutely right, my bad. I just did not read the tooltip right

[Skibbles]

maybe drop the class restriction for making the sequencers?

You can make any sequencer you like regardless of class, provided you have the corresponding Tradeskill and materials

The sequencers have been made active in the crafting menus, go wild!

What he's saying, I think, is that by picking a class with the intent to use summons, such as a mage, then you're sort of heavily incentivized to auto pick trades that you can use to make your own sequencers.

So you can't have like a mage with smithing because it precludes you from a crafting skill that makes your life so much easier via components and sequencers. In other words 'going wild' with crafting, while being elbowed into it just for quality of life, doesn't really feel like going wild.

Compare this to a warrior with smithing and it isn't the same. It's a little easier to make and repair your own stuff, sure, but you only need one or two swords and some occasional repairs with cheap kits so it's not the end of the world to have a warrior that does something entirely different for fun or flavor.

Speaking of repair kits I wonder if these sequencers would be easier maintained if they were permanent items that only needed to be recharged.

I think flower power or someone mentioned earlier that there will be times you have to carry twice as many because you're nearing end of life on multiple of them.

[Nurel]

What he's saying, I think, is that by picking a class with the intent to use summons, such as a mage, then you're sort of heavily incentivized to auto pick trades that you can use to make your own sequencers.

It is a valid argument. Even though the class restrictions are quite broad atm, this encourages certain choices in crafting by certain class groups

To add to this, the tradeskills required seem somewhat unequal in usefulness. I will not be surprised if we see a sudden surge of master artcrafters, for example. Art sequencers are top notch

[Skibbles]

Yeah. I can't say I'm a fan of that, but the more I think about the idea of a new 'magic repair kit' or something the more I wouldn't mind these ultra specialized crafting combos.

Like imagine being a mundane herbalist. This is your market: herbalism. Oh, but since you're not a caster you're just now an unoptimal merchant while druid herbalists are literally better than you. Kinda gross when I think about it.

[Naghast]

Like imagine being a mundane herbalist. This is your market: herbalism. Oh, but since you're not a caster you're just now an unoptimal merchant while druid herbalists are literally better than you. Kinda gross when I think about it.

that's... kinda already the case tho, with better poisons requiring poison immunity feat (not from the belt).

[Skibbles]

Like imagine being a mundane herbalist. This is your market: herbalism. Oh, but since you're not a caster you're just now an unoptimal merchant while druid herbalists are literally better than you. Kinda gross when I think about it.

that's... kinda already the case tho, with better poisons requiring poison immunity feat (not from the belt).

Oooh I didn't know that. I'll be consistent here. Also gross.

And to add: Part of the positives from certain people was to 'tax' magic users for consumables, but the only people able to make and sell them are... magic users.

[chris a gogo]

Can we get shaman added to the nature ones it's currently only druid and ranger and shaman is a full caster where as ranger isn't.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

I will not be surprised if we see a sudden surge of master artcrafters, for example. Art sequencers are top notch

A bit off topic, but this would not be a bad thing. My last character did high end art, and I couldn't keep my store supplied despite being somewhat obsessive about it because I was literally the only high end art crafter with a shop that was not price gouging the hell out of folks on the surface.

[Irongron]

Can we get shaman added to the nature ones it's currently only druid and ranger and shaman is a full caster where as ranger isn't.

I wanted to add these to shamans, commoners and Loremaster, but it requires an update to crafting system first, as currently these classes have no entry to assign recipes to.

Also size will be reduced to 1x1 shortly.

[chris a gogo]

Also why can't regen be cast on them it's a healing spell not a combat buff?

[xf1313]

I've got a question, and I hope you don't take this the wrong way because I'm not asking this in bad faith and I genuinely want to hear your response.

No problem. Classes, once released are a pain to change, requiring relevels or remakes. Consumables, on the other hand are easily adjusted. We'll make plenty of adjustments to these going forward, but the core restriction, at the heart of this (no longer being able to buff summons) will go unchanged.

This is a bitter pill to swallow, and I don't think a forewarning would have done anything to lessen the vitriol directed at me these last days.

It's also simply a step towards a broader rebalancing in regards to summons, which realistically can only be achieved in stages.

Hi, might be relevant to the change, I noticed the awaken spell now does nothing to summons or pets

[Rei_Jin]

Also, folks should remember that the Greater Loremaster Secret of the Artisan unlocks all class locked recipes

[Wethrinea]

Either I am terrible at reading, or there are few rangers who use animal companions much. I do, so here are my few thoughts:

Unlike all the other classes who have "summons", Rangers do not get any buff spells that affect multiple creatures (except water breathing and mass camo), No mass zoo, no aura of vitality, no mass haste, and certainly no mindblank. Awaken and Magic fang still works, but these spells exist to narrow the gap between "caster summons" and animal companions, the latter which usually have no nifty immunities, no weapons with good damage or crit range, or any special abilities or spells of their own.

With their limited spell book, rangers with companions rely on wands and scrolls to buff their companions (and themselves), without which they are quite frankly short-lived cannon fodder at higher levels. The Ranger feats that gave companions some regen and a potential chunk of AC made them viable in the epics (with careful management), but without being able to apply a plethora of arcane and divine buffs, their usefullness and survivability is drastically reduced.

One solution could be to classify animal companions not as summons, but henchmen, which would also solve the whole "How can a dismissal spell send my very real and not summoned animal away?" condudrum.

Edit: AC bonus from Rangers constitution through Call of the Wild feat no longer applies, leaving the level 30 bear at 27 AC after Awaken and Greater Magic Fang.

[chris a gogo]

Also aura of vitality doesn't work on summons or animal companions and it's an area effect buff.

Correction it won't target them you have to target the floor im presuming this is the case for every area effect buff now due to the scripting?

[Arjay670]

You know, I was on the fence about this, figuring that everything would be all right, that more and better and hopefully cheaper sequencers would get added in. I figured I'd just try it and see how painful things are, holding my nose against the ridiculous idea that this tiger I just summoned was somehow immune to my magic, but not all the spells being cast at it.

Then I tried to make a sequencer and saw that it was class-locked, and I'd have to go start from scratch in a different profession just to get a crappy +4 ac and a few minutes/level effects on my summon. Hard pass.

Yes, I know, I can blow one of my loremaster feats instead of taking what I'd WANTED to take. That's a totally reasonable thing to have to do to... keep playing like I was last week with no problem? Never mind that it means I have to GET to that next level to take the feat just to make my sequencers.

So just to recap, what we have here is wizards being locked into playing specific tradeskills and/or making 3 levels of ranger mandatory. Great. This is NOT a good feeling here.

[-XXX-]

After initial tinkering, I'd like to offer some feedback and suggestions:

Natural Reagents
Casts:
* Barkskin
* Stoneskin Ghostly Visage
* Bull's Strength
* Cat's Grace

Protective Thurible
Casts:
* Negative Energy Protection
* Death Ward Displacement
* Protection from Alignment
* Aid

First thing that I noticed was how the Orb Cradle stood out from the other lesser option simply because it had improved invisibility.
Concealment is a very powerful damage mitigator, especially in PvE. I'd suggest removing some of the more situational buffs from Natural Reagents and Protective Thurible in favour of alternative concealment buffs:

- Natural Reagents: Stoneskin Ghostly Visage Most summons have some form of native DR, so stoneskin is often wasted on them. Ghostly visage does retain minor DR that's relevant for low level summons and offers minor concealment that's also viable vs monsters with invis purge. Ghostly Visage could be further improved into Ethereal Visage for Petrified Bluewood (Ethereal viage could probably use an upgrade to 1 turn/lvl duration anyway).
Finally, it'd add that "spirity" vibe to Druid's and Shaman's summons.

- Protective Thurible: Death Ward Displacement Clerics are likely to use elementals or undead as their summons, neither of which have any use for death ward. Displacement offers concealment that's also viable vs monsters with invis purge.

[Rei_Jin]

The difficulty with displacement is the rounds/level duration

[-XXX-]

Good point. Would nerfing Displacement to confer 30% concealment to justify it having its duration bumped to 1 turn/lvl be possible?

[Kalopsia]

Correction it won't target them you have to target the floor im presuming this is the case for every area effect buff now due to the scripting?

That'll be more intuitive next reset. You'll be able to target summons with mass spells without the spell effect being canceled.