Summon Buff Changes

[miesny_jez]

After my first initial knee-jerk reaction to this change.. I think this has a potential of something really good but it is not there yet.

The fact that all of the spells are applied as Maximized and Extended at characters level is an immediate and a very good buff (maybe even to much?) to casters, which all of them have to rely on summons in some extent.

The ability to use spells on summons that were inaccessible to them previously is also great.. maybe even too much tbh. I expect it to be even bonkers broken for melee builds like Blackguard or Ranger.


The GOOD things:

• The lesser sequencers craft DC is spot on
• The lesser sequencer charges amount seem to be alright
• The lesser Arcane spell selection looks to be VERY good
• The lesser Druidic spell selection looks to be good
• The lesser Divine spell selection Ok-ish.. maybe bit too strong
• The Maximized and Extended tied to Character level is VERY good
• Using the Lesser Runes as ingredients for Greater Sequencers I think is a VERY good idea
• Crafting points requirements for all sequencers looks to be good
• All spells in one click yes its good
• I think... that the theme for those Sequencers is Lessers (long sustain buffs), Greaters (all previous + shorter heavily impacting buffs) which is a great idea tbh
• The Loremasters Artisan greater secret unlocking class locked sequencers is very good

The BAD things:

• The sequencers seems to be exclusive (only one type can be applied at the moment?)
• Leaving low level casters banned from being able to buff their low lvl summons means a very poor playing experience for them
• The Commoner class is effectively locked out of crafting any of those sequencers
• The RP inconsistency between the summons and normal players for buffing.. its hard to explain really in a RP sense.
• The craft DC for Greaters is too much should be dialed down as those are consumables and not final staple items. I would suggest looking at 33 - 40 DC range to align with other recipies, 35DC would probably be the sweet spot to allow characters to sprinkle into double crafting while still mainting ability to self-support if wanted, if possible leave the crafting points required to craft though they are in a very good range now.
• The Greater sequencer charges seem to be too much tbh, i would dial it to 20 charges as they wont be used as often anyway
• The disproportion in crafting disciplines between Lessers and Greaters is well wierd and confusing, I understand its intention (to allow a character to reach two types of the sequencers) but it is defeated by the locking the sequencers to specific class groups
• Lesser Divine sequencer requires TWO crafting disciplines (Flask of Oil) which is inconsistent with the other lesser ones and is far more annoying to craft then any other lessers, the other Lessers are self-sufficient in one discipline
• The Lesser Druidic sequencer requires no pre-processing of ingredients whereas others do.. maybe intentional here
• The Lesser Druidic is badly missing an Endurance buff, please exchange the Stoneskin to Endurance
• The Greater Druidic sequencer i think is underpowered
• The Premonition on Greater Arcane is probably an Overkill
• The Lesser Divine NEP should be exchanged
• The Greater Divine Spell Resistance should be capped maybe (i dont know didn't check)?
• The Greater and Lesser Divine I think it needs some more thoughts
• The way it was implemented on the server was very BAD and not Nice, please allow testing and feedback on PGCC especially for something as fundamental as this change

Suggestions:

1. ALLOW all Three types of sequencers to be used on a single summon.. or at least One Greater and two Lessers.
2. GO into a COMPROMISE - Allow Spells of lvl 1 and 2 to be castable on summons at least until the summons of 1-6 will be rebalanced, this would resolve the issue of low levels struggling with content, while allowing Sequencers to be targeted for caster of lvl 12+ where they would be able to afford the cost and would be ok with paying for more more power and convenience
3. Dial back Craft DC for Greater Sequencers to DC35
4. Allow Lessers to be craftable by two disciplines matching the Greater as well so Lesser Arcane (can be crafted by Art&Alchemy), Lesser Druidic (can be crafted by Herbalism&Carpentry), Lesser Divine (Smith&Art)
5. Remove the Flask of Oil from Lesser Divine leave it at 3 ingredients only, Druidic can stay at 4 as it uses raws only
6. Remove Class-locking from Lesser sequencers to improve availability, leave Class locking for Greaters only
7. Lesser Druidic: Exchange Stoneskin->Endurance
8. Greater Druidic: Exchange Energy Buffer -> Flame Shield?
9. Greater Arcane: Exchange Premo -> Blackstaff
10. Lesser Divine: Move NEP to Greater Divine
11. Lesser Divine: Add Monsterous Regen Hour/Level?
12. Greater Divine: I think Spell Resistance maybe too strong, exchange to Aura vs Alignment?

Concerns:

• I am concerned that these Sequencers will make Blackguards too strong.
• I do not know how the Rangers Animal Companion work now after this changes, maybe either broken strong or totally underpowered
• I am concerned about the Bard/Dirge builds that they may be too strong with this changes
• I do not know how Enchanters are supposed to be functioning now, is domination even working?

That's my feedback on this, coming from a player who plays casually on very few hours and enjoys mostly crafting and RP.

EDIT:
Added the point about Sequencers being exclusive

[WanderingPoet]

As a suggestion, why not make them work like the other sequencers? Make the lessers have 3 buffs, and the greaters have 6 buffs, and a minimum of 18 wis/int/cha to add into them.

That'd give more opportunities for RPing filling them, like with arrow templates, and allow people to customize their spells better based off which summon they're using.

The lack of regeneration for example really makes anything but water elemental a -lot- weaker on clerics/druids, as they're best off using the arcane one currently on Water Elemental if they're going to use summon 9. Being able to customize which spells I want to go onto it would make it a lot more interesting from a gameplay perspective and RP perspective.

[-XXX-]

[*]Planar Conduit with Sequencers buffs will be WAAY to strong

How and why? No matter how creative one gets with sequencers, they'll always end up at a net stat loss compared to what they could be doing with summons before. TooManyPotatoes made a comprehensive list at page 5 of this thread, I suggest you read it : viewtopic.php?p=300106#p300106

From what little live PvE testing that I had the opportunity to do since the sequencers went live, I can attest that PC has become noticably squishier even with the sequencers.

[Nurel]

[*]Leaving low level casters banned from being able to buff their low lvl summons means a very poor playing experience for

The post above is a great post I just want to elaborate a bit on the quoted sentence.

Let us consider how every new player joins as a lowbie. Lots of newbies (myself included) pick a caster to start off, and they like to cast bull's strength on their boar in order to kill mud crabs, right?

Also, judgingfrom myself but also from others who I have helped as newbies, it takes a player a good while to engage with the Economy aspect of Arelith. Everyone needs to take their sweet time before deciding where to spend their hard earned gold, its all well and good.

Now what can a new player do when they find out their Bull Str can't go on their boar? Eventually they will be told they have to spend every last dime they haven't even earned yet to buy a sequencer from an established player shop
They do not even know what a Nexus Falls is, how are they supposed to scour the Arelith market to find a sequencer?

A sidenote, I strongly believe 5k is a very high price for a new player to pay for a damn scroll case. I expect the sequencers to go for much more than that.

What would you do as a new player when presented with this challenge? Reroll a non-summoner? Leave forever? I seem to dangle between the two

[Party in the forest at midnight]

Thank you for reducing the size of them. I'm still going to hope that crafting will eventually be unlocked. Loremaster benefits melee more than it benefits casters, so non-casters will be making the buff items that casters need. It's really disappointing, it makes it difficult for casters to make these for themselves. There's a big disparity in the usefulness of them too. The cleric lesser is by far the worst, clerics won't be able to make their own buff item because the nature and magic ones are significantly more useful.

[Distant Relation]

If this is possible at all to do, I would suggest making a non-tradeable version of the lesser buff item for each class, and giving those to newly made summoning classes upon character creation.

[Nurel]

is the 1x1 change in yet? Please confirm, I dont wanna make another 2x2 batch :'(

[Party in the forest at midnight]

If this is possible at all to do, I would suggest making a non-tradeable version of the lesser buff item for each class, and giving those to newly made summoning classes upon character creation.

Gron said caster classes start with the lesser buff item(s).

[Distant Relation]

Ah, awesome! I didn't catch that before That's good!

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

Good point. Would nerfing Displacement to confer 30% concealment to justify it having its duration bumped to 1 turn/lvl be possible?

Don't do this, displacement scrolls/spells/wands are important to just about everyone who wants to fight a boss that likely has an invisibility purge mobster. You also can't extend the duration because that makes improved invisibility useless. If anything, make a mass displacement spell.

[-XXX-]

is the 1x1 change in yet? Please confirm, I dont wanna make another 2x2 batch :'(

Confirmed

[Griefmaker]

As a suggestion, why not make them work like the other sequencers? Make the lessers have 3 buffs, and the greaters have 6 buffs, and a minimum of 18 wis/int/cha to add into them.

That'd give more opportunities for RPing filling them, like with arrow templates, and allow people to customize their spells better based off which summon they're using.

The lack of regeneration for example really makes anything but water elemental a -lot- weaker on clerics/druids, as they're best off using the arcane one currently on Water Elemental if they're going to use summon 9. Being able to customize which spells I want to go onto it would make it a lot more interesting from a gameplay perspective and RP perspective.

I have debated a lot what I think of this change and have really not liked the suggested sequencers much at all. To be frank, this entire concept is pretty unattractive in a DnD world of high magic, has ZERO RP justification, and just seems...lame.

If the intent is to speed up buffing and limit strength, fine. There is merit to that line of thought and having the sequencers be auto maxed and extended is a nice boon.

But let the player decide the spells used. Letting the characters choose their own path in the game is sort of the #1 thing about Arelith. Or at least has been for the last 15 years that I have been here. And this change is sort of like telling melee that you can use a scimitar, rapier, or falchion...but it does zero damage to anything with more than cloth armor. Suddenly, 70% of melee builds are effectively neutered!

But this suggestion by WanderingPoet I could get behind and would still be the desired MASSIVE nerf to casters. This will also make it so those who want their PvP buffs (which are all the greater sequencers look like to me) can get them, whereas those who need long-term sustainability buffs to keep a creature alive can have those as well without the need to run in each and every dungeon or risk having to burn several charges from a limited charge item that will not be as cheap as it would be to acquire a wand. There is already too much running of groups and too little RP in adventures as it is, but I do not blame people who will run because time literally is money being wasted.

I also think this positive change to sequencers would see a majority of players be able to accept this nerf instead of grumble at what definitely seems like a needless "fix".

[Aren]

Please allow me to single target haste my summon, as a class that doesn’t get access to mass haste. It feels terrible to have to wait for my summon to catch up.

[Distant Relation]

Perhaps once this has had time to mature, maybe even opening up rounds/level buffs to summons would be nice, since those are usually not part of the 'general buff sequence' but more of an encounter/boss fight prep thing.

[Sytic]

As is the general sentiment shared in this thread: This was rushed, not fun, and especially not fun in its original design implementation pre-buffs and changes to the recipes and all that.

No matter what, this was going to raise some hell, but basically going "We're launching this ASAP" is a bag of horrible design choices. I'm not saying this because it's how I feel, I'm saying it because of how it is.

There has been numerous changes to this system in this thread's lifetime, albeit that lifetime is measured in the span of about two days. These would need to be tested, absolutely, I'm all for testing. But pivotal design flaws, like Irongron not acknowledging the main mechanism low level Martials get buffs: Vendors. I know nobody that knows their stuff that isn't either A) getting their buffs from their high-level friends or B) going to a vendor, picking up Barkskin, Zoo Buffs, what have you. Everyone does it at low levels, hell I do it on my Casters when I want more spell slots (not that I use them for much damage- I play a buff caster, which is why I'm having significantly less fun with my kit than usual because I can't buff my Summon, which was where half my fun was). The fact that this is a sweeping change means you need to focus on all levels of play, because Epic Sacrifice is a thing and people constantly level new characters, as well as the New Player Experience. The fact that the main mechanism that non-casters get buffs was forgotten is actually hilarious, and a slight testament to how rushed this is.

Now for a compliment, I really like the fact that you haven't just gone "my way or the high way". You've stuck to your guns, established why this exists, and I understand some points even if I disagree. So, compromise. I like the crafting system anyway, so maybe I'll like this especially with the toned-down recipes. But changing everything right before launch is terrible as a design practice. You have to give people the patch notes on such a huge change, because there might be things you didn't think of. If this system announcement launched last week, then you might have still gotten a lot of people saying "boo it sucks" but you'd also have all the time you needed to remedy people's fears without it being really tight to deadline. With visible compromise and active development, both sides of the playing field get what they want. It's why live service games have public test servers and the PGCC exists.

Overall, I'm glad there's positive change happening, and I'm going to drop the cynicism and malaise I've had over it. I still have my problems with it, but for now I'll keep them in reserve on a personal level as many people have put it much better than I have in this thread. My one standing critique is the content of this post: From a design level, please interact with your community more before future major changes. That doesn't mean you don't change things, it means you allow the community to give you feedback for "great ideas" for things you "didn't consider" before implementation as a show of good faith.

[miesny_jez]

[*]Planar Conduit with Sequencers buffs will be WAAY to strong

How and why? No matter how creative one gets with sequencers, they'll always end up at a net stat loss compared to what they could be doing with summons before. TooManyPotatoes made a comprehensive list at page 5 of this thread, I suggest you read it : viewtopic.php?p=300106#p300106

When making the post above I didn't realize that the Sequencers are exclusive (only one sequencer set can be applied at the same time)..

Well in this case yeah its pretty bad then, a nice idea with a terrible terrible implementation

So i suppose my point number one for the Feedback why it is BAD then would be:

• 1. ALLOW all Three types of sequencers to be used on a single summon.. or at least One Greater and two Lessers.

[Arjay670]

If you really want to make the sequencers locked into certain classes, make them all available to every trade skill, so that the proper class always has access to them. If you want them locked to certain tradeskills, open them up to all classes. Doing both is ridiculous. Yes, I know, there's a little bit of realism lost when you can make the same thing as an herbalist as a smith, but it's no less than the amount of realism lost in not being able to cast a spell on your animal companion that you can the random guy standing next to you.

Yes, I get it people hate summoners. Fine. Yes, I get it, the staff want this change. Fine. Figure it all out first before you screw everyone's gameplay. I'm getting chased off of maps that I could have safely walked through the day before because my summon is getting melted by the wildlife, and I can't do anything about it because my class/trade selection has no crafting options. So now I get to grind even more to buy these items off of other people that put spell effects on my summon that my character is perfectly capable of casting himself.

Congratulations. You've put in a change that makes it prohibitively difficult for people from playing casters. It's kind of like the nerf that got tacked onto ranged attacks. How often do you see anyone playing an archer these days, despite all the cool templates to apply effects onto ammunition? This is going to have the same effect.

[Wethrinea]

[*]I do not know how the Rangers Animal Companion work now after this changes, maybe either broken strong or totally underpowered

My level 30 bear sits at 27 AC after the buffs my ranger is able to apply without sequencer, hopefully 36 when the Call of the Wild bug is fixed. A greater sequencer should bump that up to the low 40's. Now imagine how long something with those stats will survive without concealment, haste, NEP, mindblank, or any of the resistances and immunities other summons get in any level 20+ dungeon.

For dex rangers and archers you can shave 9-10 AC off that number again since they do not qualify for Call of the Wild feat.

[Ithalan]

That'll be more intuitive next reset. You'll be able to target summons with mass spells without the spell effect being canceled.

While at it, can you make it so that if a warlock pact spell on the prohibited list is cast on a summon, it still gets refunded even if there is no effect?

Getting used to to the spells no longer working is going to be a painful learning experience already without losing spell slots over it also.

[chris a gogo]

Edited due to the results being a bug with the sequencers.

[TooManyPotatoes]

In light of all this, would it be possible to do away with the rest meter finally and just let people rest when they want? Managing the rest meter is part of why spellcasters even rely on their summons in the first place.

This would ensure people aren't reliant on their summons.

[gryggrstrkssontreelover]

most badass change i've seen in a while. this game should be played like the elite play EVE online. spreadsheets and numbers baby, let's get crafting..

[IanPatron]

I really don't like this weird nonsensical change at all.

I Hate this change with a passion.

Doesn't do well for my RP caster build who relied heavily on her summons and buffs... not at all.

[GrazalThruka]

As somone who's played both casters and martials, I don't see how this change does anything to improve anyone's play beyond those who can craft and sell the new items. The main reason I returned to Wizard after a handful of non-casters was that I was sick of traveling the island every week looking for that one wand I'd run out of charges on. All this change does is give casters this problem too and make content harder for casters anyways (most of which I can presently never solo).

Please just revert this. It's bad, and making the items smaller is not even close to a fix.

[Kilnasaggart]

Sorry to ask the stupid question of the day, but is there please anywhere a description of those new rules for old tarts who aren't onto Discord ?

As it stands my twig who's an epic summoner/epic transmuter just saw perhaps a third of the servers now closed to him, and three-quarter of the places he used to go.

I was planning to offer my services to a Matron, all I'll get now is cleaning the latrines in the Hub