Summon Buff Changes

[Guerra]

Please let casters re attribute their trade skill points as most made pre change won’t have been built to make these objects? I know you want us to work together but it’s not always possible to rely on others for a consumable you need every time you play.

[Spinal]

Are these changes going to turn out to be as good? Can't say for certain until it plays out some.

I honestly don't know either, even with the lore change I wasn't certain. They both depend a good deal on what comes after - a change is made, and then the server gets built around that.

Players were super upset with lore, and quite a few full on abusive. Overnight it look away a massive amount of power, to go from being able to use level 9 spells, infinitely? Players were walking around with stacks of consumables that when deployed made most content trivial. Even if I didn't approve of the abuse, I well understood the pain.

Here, while the two updates are very different, the above situation is the same. Unlike everyone else my Arelith time is chiefly spent watching players do dungeons, and we had arrived at a situation where for a large part, it was a game played with the associate tool. I would routinely watch dungeons get cleared with a single summon, that took minimal damage, and bosses steamrolled just by applying haste to them.

The comment I keep reading in regard to this update is 'Well why not just rebalance all summons?' But this simply isn't possible, if some are fully buffed and some are not. The difference between them is much too vast.

Either I balance them assuming they are fully buffed, in which case buffing is a must, or i balance them assuming they are not, in which case they are massively OP when cast upon. This is why the decision was first taken to remove the ability to cast on summons entirely, and balance from there - indeed, it remains the most sensible solution.

Then on reflection I decided it would be far more enjoyable for players if they could buff them a little, choosing between a limited number of 'kits', and then balance with those in mind. Before I decided that? This update would simply have been 'you can no longer cast on summons at all'. Imagine how that would have gone down?

Another point, regarding my unilateral, zero feedback/discussion decision here. This idea for sequencers? It was formulated during discussion with players in #general on the Arelith public Discord.

I actually agree with many of the points here. It feels messy, counter intuitive, and potentially irritating. I should, perhaps, have gone with the original development idea, and simply said 'no more magic on summons', but for now, at least, sequencers will remain.

I think this is succinctly written and follows a solid line of logic - The world of Aerlith should not be conquerable by the associate tool. I think posting this somewhere in the patch notes (preferably a bit before or at the same time as dropping the hammer) would help players understand. (They will still cry) I as a mundane player was appalled at how my group of 5 was simply relegated to tag along looters by the clerics summons in 99% of the content we did - and that was before Planar Conduit was unlocked.

There will be much bellyaching over a loss of personal power as spellcasters are forced to group (The horror!) to be able to clear content. The lands will heal and every other class that didn't have access to more-powerful-than-pc summons to level up with will now be available to group with the mundies. In removing half of the classes ability to solo group content easily EVERYONE will benefit. There will be more reasons to interact with other people. And more interactions means more opportunities to meet and create stories.

[Guerra]

Soloing is a necessity because the level range is so huge, play times vary and it can be impossible to find someone doing the same writs as you in the mid levels. Finding a group wandering cordor sewers is easy and arranging an expedition in the epics the same but if you are lv 6-24 it can be very hard to sync.

I’m not saying sequencers make it impossible (that’s not my point at all) just wish there wasn’t attitude people need to not be able to solo. It doesn’t have to be easy but it needs to be possible. Partying up would be the preference for most you see out there soloing but circumstances didn’t allow it. We all have lives outside the game and if you have 2 hours to play it can take most of that to find a partner.

[Naghast]

it could be possible to increase the amount of spells known for spontaneous casters that can possibly get access to these spells?

Maybe I'm missing something but what's stopping you from getting a wizard to put them on scrolls? we'll likely see them in shops now that they actually aren't useless.

i... kinda mentioned it in the last paragraph of my message. that i know my feedback can be rather easily deflected with that specific claim - just get a wizard to scribe it for you and use the scroll.
but, if i'm allowed to say one small thing
you can't empower a scroll. so that's one limitation. of not having the spell in your spellbook.

[Exordius]

Since this is already a nerf we should not touch planar conduit except to lower its high damage, anything more then that will make it useless and a waste of a feat.

[-XXX-]

Mummy dust deals more damage than PC. It's the AB that sets them apart.

[Exordius]

Ok remove that too then, easy.

[RedGiant]

I think PvP balance ultimately has to be considered here.

Right now my main is a Warlock with infinite dismissals, banishment, WoF scrolls, and fistfuls of breaching.

Most summons were toast before this update. Now you must have an SR sequencer active to have any chance whatsoever, and this will most likely buy you...maybe about 1/2 a round.

Summons had an Achilles heel before all this, but playing a summoner in this environment should come with a warning.

[Kalthariam]

My largest concern I have with this update and everything surrounding it right now is effectively I am being told:

"Hey, we broke your only combat capability, we'll fix it, eventually."

So, that's just it. My character is dead in the water, until an unspecified time in the future when things will be revisited. With basically no warning before hand that it was happening.

These items do not do enough to justify me going out of my way to get them to give a pittance of what I once was able to provide my summons, which was literally my only avenue of self defense, or doing anything at all.

I'm now 100% completely dependent on someone else doing everything for me. While I sit there and watch.

[ChevroletElvis]

So many people here practice role-play that experiments on different creatures, much of which involves casting spells on those creatures...

It's just sad that so many role-play possibilities just went poof.

New characters will have to read published works on those experiments to understand certain things, since it can't be role-played out anymore.

[Hrothgar Bloodaxe]

Please let casters re attribute their trade skill points as most made pre change won’t have been built to make these objects? I know you want us to work together but it’s not always possible to rely on others for a consumable you need every time you play.

My tickets are still "pending" in the queue, but a number of good friends who have requested this have had their requests denied, on the grounds that "changing your skill points in response to a change in the server meta / mechanics is not allowed."

Hopefully this was simply a mistaken DM, but assuming this continues to hold true, I think it's pretty terrible.

If we're trying to reduce the power of summons by requiring these specific items, fair enough, that's clearly been done at this point.

But this would be the equivalent to saying "We've decided spell components now require Smithing. But, sorry wizards, you'll need to stick with alchemy. Better luck next time!"

Honest question: how locking casters out of the trade skills they will need to survive furthers the goal of this update?

There was no advanced warning, so no one could have prepared. We've already run roughshod over the notion that RP considerations matter in this case - the update makes no sense from an RP standpoint, this is purely a mechanical adjustment. So to then suggest that responding to this in a way to simply make existing characters playable is somehow taboo just seems disingenuous.

It's not like we're trying to game the system to relearn a trade because of a cool new item - it's widely acknowledged that these sequencers are essentially required for any spellcaster who has relied on a summon (which is most of them).

Hopefully this gets addressed quickly, otherwise, things will simply become unplayable for a huge number of people.

[Xerah]

Come on now people, no one's role play got ruined because of this. There are many options to "cast" on creatures for role play reasons; some spells do work, there are emotes to do so, etc. Hyperbole doesn't add anything.

I don't buy the "it doesn't make IC sense" as a lot of things don't make IC sense either but we accept them. Irongron's comment on them being created from elsewhere and might not take buff spells is just as logical as any number of other things. Even animal companions, at least in NWN, are described as summoning (even if people RP them coming from the woods).

This is not meant to call this change good or bad, but sticking to things, i.e.:

• limited ability to make them
• confusing mechanics on what can/cannot be used
• really confusing to new players
• wiping allowed spells off when using a sequencer
• lower tiered summons are especially useless (though the wolf is fine)
• issues with what's inside the sequencer
• some end game summons are not up to par with other ones
• having to use 3 charges from sequencers on mummy dust (or am I wrong on this one?)

I'm sure there are others, but those are off the top of my head and some of these are getting changed/fixed already.

Your character is not worthless/useless but will require changes to your gameplay to deal with these nerfs

[Scurvy Cur]

Blackguard and Shadowdancer were already plenty strong enough; they didn’t need a buff. This change risks making them TOO strong and shifting balance even more.

I keep hearing that this change "buffs blackguards and shadowdancers".

I'm not sure where that concept comes from, but I suspect some people have not done their math. Or perhaps they simply weren't aware that BG/SD players could buff their summons before the update. Either way, a quick breakdown:

Previous BG/SD summon format

Most summons could expect a cocktail of potions (84 gold each), and a barkskin wand (bought from players at ~5-6k for a 40ish charge wand, call it 120 gold per use). Since the SD summon has high concealment, and the BG summons (at least some of them) self-conceal, you wouldn't bother with an improved invis wand, but only because it wasn't necessary. You would also use mage armor scrolls on them for some extra AC, and in certain environments, also PfA scrolls to give +4 deflection AC for 40 minutes a scroll (these scrolls cost 50 gold each). Side note, because it matters when comparing vs druidic conduits: you could always stoneskin your BG summons, there's no meaningful duration difference between 7 hours and 60 hours; 7 hours is already longer than you'll have the summon. Ultravision is the same.

In the case of BG, BG bull's strength would also apply to the summon and stack as normal. Total box score:

9 str
5 dex
5 con

4 AB from STR
9 AC (4 bark, 3 mage armor, 2 dex)
Situationally 3 more AC if you're in an area where the enemies all have the same alignment and you can double stack pfa.
40 HP

Now, compare to present

Note, you can still do the thing with BG bulls, since it's not a targeted spell. So a BG will be looking at:

Arcane
+6 ac, 50% concealment
+2 AB from BG Bull's

Druidic
+7 ac, +2 ab, 40 HP
+2 more AB from BG bull's (total +4)

Divine
+1 ab, +2 ac, +4 vs. banishment, immune to neg
+2 AB from BG Bull's (total +3)

For those keeping score, this translates to:

Arcane
Loses 3 AC
Loses 2 AB
Gains a redundant concealment spell, because the summon AI will still cast Imp Invis on cooldown, even when it has the spell from elsewhere.

Druidic
Loses 2 AC (situationally 5 AC because you can't do the pfa scroll thing)

Divine
Loses 1 AB
Loses 7 AC (ouch!)
Loses 40 HP
Gains...NEP?

Now, you can burn mass zoo scrolls if you want (this is kind of dubious, because you're starting to look at 6-7k worth of scrolls to buff a summon that's a little glass cannon), to let you add some stats to the arcane and divine sequencers, but even that doesn't add enough to bring the BG summon back to par, because this is just giving the BG the ability to re-add the zoo spells they were already applying anyway. I also don't see anyone advocating for adding these.

[xanrael]

I guess for me I'm not sure why we have to follow exact spells and instead could just have base effects. So it would give whatever is needed in the STR/Attack/AC/Saves/SR/etc department. Just because Bull's Strength or Spell Resistance gives +5 or 42 SR respectively doesn't mean it needs to be mapped 1 to 1 with the sequencers.

Personally I'd rather there be a single line of base buffs and people can "customize" things from their AoE buffs, whether their own or a party member's. Then a summon has a baseline sequencer-buffed performance for everything to be balanced around. The differences between classes can be on their performance of their actual characters and how they buff other PCs.

[-XXX-]

[*]having to use 3 charges from sequencers on mummy dust (or am I wrong on this one?)[/list]

Yeah, one charge per summon. Though I think that by the time one gets mummy dust this should be little more than an afterthought for them, assuming that they can actually craft the sequencers (have at least 1 point allocated in art crafting and herbalism).
The lesser sequencers aren't difficult to craft and require under 1000gp worth in materials.

[Xerah]

Back in my initial theorizing of making an artificer class that would buff up golems, I had wanted them to be able to imbue items with spells that would apply the spells, abilities, stats, etc to the golems. This is kind of like that but without the customization. I think it would be better for a player if you could customize; these are sequencers after all.

The reason for the lack of customization is it is easy enough to look at a summon and apply sequencer 1-6 on them and know exactly what their offensive and defensive abilities are. Then you balance them that way.

The reason why they apply spells is that there are a lot of effects and such that run off of specific spells (i.e. dispels/breaches). If you add a new effect, you have to add all of that into the logic.

[Xerah]

[*]having to use 3 charges from sequencers on mummy dust (or am I wrong on this one?)[/list]

Yeah, one charge per summon. Though I think that by the time one gets mummy dust this should be little more than an afterthought for them, assuming that they can actually craft the sequencers (have at least 1 point allocated in art crafting and herbalism).
The lesser sequencers aren't difficult to craft and require under 1000gp worth in materials.

True enough on that, though, I am sure there are some of us old players who like to end FF games with 40 elixirs in the inventory just cause we need them. It takes a lot of work to un-program hoarding.

[Kalthariam]

Your character is not worthless/useless but will require changes to your gameplay to deal with these nerfs

My Character is a level 30 Healer Path Cleric, Whom has Specializations in Conjuration, Transmutation, and Divination, with the Sun and Healing domains.

If I cast any of my limited offensive spells, they are all AoE, and most of them only really work on undead, which means all mobs dog pile on my 28 AC character (That's after being fully buffed), ergo, I do not have the option to cast my offensive spells if I only have my conjured creatures.

The Sequencer Items do not bring my creatures remotely up to par with mid 20's level map areas, let alone level 30 dungeons.

My summons are now effectively powerless compared to level 20+ dungeons, because the only options I now have to buff my summons with, is Bless, Prayer (Which also aggros mobs), Circle of Protection from Alignment, and Good hope.

I'm sorry, but I do not see how "Changing my gameplay" is going to make me able to function independently anymore. I am now literally solely dependent on having other people clear content for me.

My character's always been a supportive character, but they still had the options to try to do some things on their own, even if it was abysmally slow before this update.

Unless there's some secret that I simply do not know about and hasn't been shared to me at this point, I would have to still stand by what I see as the fact that this update has actually massively crippled my character, and I am simply stuck until things eventually get rebalanced, and hope for the best.

[-XXX-]

I am sure there are some of us old players who like to end FF games with 40 elixirs in the inventory just cause we need them. It takes a lot of work to un-program hoarding.

I've managed to craft a dozen of them and consumed one since implementation. The only thing preventing hoarding them is inventory space and the fact that they don't stack.

The biggest issue here is having the correct trade skills to be able to craft them. I'll comiserate with caster players who have no ranks in art crafting and/or herbalism - that's bad.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

Your character is not worthless/useless but will require changes to your gameplay to deal with these nerfs

My Character is a level 30 Healer Path Cleric, Whom has Specializations in Conjuration, Transmutation, and Divination, with the Sun and Healing domains.

If I cast any of my limited offensive spells, they are all AoE, and most of them only really work on undead, which means all mobs dog pile on my 28 AC character (That's after being fully buffed), ergo, I do not have the option to cast my offensive spells if I only have my conjured creatures.

The Sequencer Items do not bring my creatures remotely up to par with mid 20's level map areas, let alone level 30 dungeons.

My summons are now effectively powerless compared to level 20+ dungeons, because the only options I now have to buff my summons with, is Bless, Prayer (Which also aggros mobs), Circle of Protection from Alignment, and Good hope.

I'm sorry, but I do not see how "Changing my gameplay" is going to make me able to function independently anymore. I am now literally solely dependent on having other people clear content for me.

My character's always been a supportive character, but they still had the options to try to do some things on their own, even if it was abysmally slow before this update.

Unless there's some secret that I simply do not know about and hasn't been shared to me at this point, I would have to still stand by what I see as the fact that this update has actually massively crippled my character, and I am simply stuck until things eventually get rebalanced, and hope for the best.

Alternatively another healer path cleric was saying this didn't impact them at all, they use a biteback damage familiar and spam endless heals.

[Xerah]

I think "not affected at all" is a bit of an overstatement, but that is the general point I was getting at. The lack of regen on the summon is something that should be unlocked by the healer path cleric, I think.

[chris a gogo]

I actually agree with many of the points here. It feels messy, counter intuitive, and potentially irritating. I should, perhaps, have gone with the original development idea, and simply said 'no more magic on summons', but for now, at least, sequencers will remain.

Babylon System is the Vampire wrote.

Reading this, the answer is actually quite simple though folks are going to hate you even more for it. Reduce the summon duration to 3 rounds per level and boost their power level slightly. That would give level 9 summons/planar conduit a duration of around 8 minutes assuming a 3 level dip, and extended level 8 summons around 16 minutes. Maybe add a round per level with each focus, or just two with epic focus. You could even do something for a conjuration specialist, but honestly the key spells they would lose from transmutation could all be made up for in different ways so it can't be too good.

There would be kinks to work out of course, this is a drive by suggestion on the forums after all and not a well thought out thing, but thematically at least for everything save undead and animal companions it makes sense. I'm not sure how legit of a complaint that actually is but taking it away can't do anything but help. I would nerf undead and animal companions though and let them stand as is.

This would at the very least add some strategy and thought to the process of summons, and assuming gate summons get the round bonus actually makes summoners better at that too.

Lowering duration would just lead to all casters having to take nothing but summons to complete a single dungeon there would be no creativity, the fact is you have to have a summon/tank to stop the spawns slaughtering the caster or be an infinite caster with disabling spells and damage to spam, even then it can be hit and miss.
Plus having to cast 14 summons spells and using 60+ spell components to finish a dungeon is never going to make a profit.

[Kalthariam]

Which summon with retaliation are they using?

The only one I can think of is the Ancient Fire Elemental, which has a 1d8 + 11 bite back vs melee targets only.

It's also the squishiest of the Ancient Elementals and dies extraordinarily fast without protective buffs. It's base HP is 212, It cannot be buffed for Con bonuses, outside of Mass spells which I do not have access to, and unless it was recently changed, none of the sequencers give Bears Endurance, and I cannot overheal / regen the elemental.

It's 32 base AC can get bumped up by what? 7? If I get a sequencer. So 39 AC means it's basically guaranteed to be hit by basically anything above level 20 on all their attacks, mix that with it''s very low hp, and I just do not see how this is a viable alternative. (And heaven forbid your enemy has any DR against fire.)

Honestly, if there is something I'm missing, I'm more than happy to learn something, but I just personally do not see how my characters is suppose to function with all this.

[Thron]

Hiya! I'm the healer path cleric that Party mentioned!

Here's the breakdown of the strategy:

Any fire elemental has biteback. Get a book of Fire, Summon your elemental. You're correct that just about anything will hit it due to low AC, this is a feature, not a bug. It's the weakest elemental defensively but the strongest offensively. Your job is to keep it alive. Divine power and divine favor will maximize you're healing Spells, make use of those refunded cure line spells to spam healing on your Lil guy. He's gonna take a lickin, but you keep him kicking. With this setup a cure mod should heal for about 90 per round and always be refunded, so it can get you through most fights and will generate tons of Piety for you. Add in AoEs like healing circle and the higher level heals for the tougher fights and you can still solo content way above your level.

Edit: I'm Thron#4014 on discord if you want help being the healiest healer cleric you can be!

[xanrael]

Back in my initial theorizing of making an artificer class that would buff up golems, I had wanted them to be able to imbue items with spells that would apply the spells, abilities, stats, etc to the golems. This is kind of like that but without the customization. I think it would be better for a player if you could customize; these are sequencers after all.

The reason for the lack of customization is it is easy enough to look at a summon and apply sequencer 1-6 on them and know exactly what their offensive and defensive abilities are. Then you balance them that way.

The reason why they apply spells is that there are a lot of effects and such that run off of specific spells (i.e. dispels/breaches). If you add a new effect, you have to add all of that into the logic.

As this seemed to sort of be a response to what I said I will respond.

I think it should have less customization as the current choices vary fair significantly for sequencers as far as balancing goes if the goal is to compare apples to apples.

If implementation difficulty of custom effects and adding things to the breach list is the reason for not doing it that way then I could potentially submit the code to do so.