Summon Buff Changes

[Hazard]

I think things would have made a lot more sense, and been 'balancable', if all the streams and so on were removed and each class was given a unique summon appropriate to the class and balanced around the spellbook of said class (wands and scrolls not possible, just the spells that can be learned and prepared and directly cast). That way it is always known exactly what buffs a summon would receive and adjust accordingly while also preserving what makes far more sense to the average player.

I was kind of thinking along the same line of thought.

Have each summon with a specific set of stats which can be balanced around, but which cannot be buffed at all (that includes mass spells, sequencers, etc.). The summon is its own "spell" after a fashion which the caster is able to control and include in his/her repertoire of tools to help do damage to the enemy and to help keep pressure off the caster who likely is as durable as a wet piece of paper.

Stronger summons can have more DR, regen, SR, concealment, whatever. But instead of getting a rat, boar, dire wolf, etc. up to elementals, planar summons, and planar conduit (each with different properties and strengths and weaknesses), each caster chooses a skin for their "universal" summon (sort of like how totem druids and totem rangers reskin their creatures).

However, no matter what the skin, no matter if cast by a cleric, wizard, druid, warlock, whatever...the summons have the same stats depending on what summon spell is cast and they cannot be buffed through spells and the like.

It would suck to do this since it would be work, but I think it would be a far more elegant solution than the sequencers and all of that, at least if we do not revert things back to how they were. Plus, I could bend my mind around the RP of a summon being something like an astral creature temporarily summoned to the Prime Material Plane and that bond prevents any beneficial magic from being cast on the creature.

This would at least make sense. Kinda sucks to 'update' the game by taking things away from players.
The beauty of d&d is having spells you can use in so many situations. A class having spells and being apply them to a summon is just cool, and taking that away or hiding it behind a mini-game that involves time and gold just seems like .. a downgrade not an upgrade.

But at least with this suggested method we wouldn't need any of that and it would be balanced.

[Arienette]

It's not even the summon nerf that bothers me. It's just super uninuitive that a large amount of your own spells don't work on your own summon and you need to craft/buy things to do what you should be able to do with the spells you already know.

It just seems ... wrong? I come here for a forgotten realms-esque 3.5 experience as advertised. That includes like, wizards and stuff. Now it feels as if all the casters are a type of artificer.

Surely there's a better way to go about this than disabling spells from working properly? If the sequencer just lets you cast the same spells anyway, why even disable them in the first place? Why not let players choose whether they want to use spell slots for buffs, or free up spell slots by carrying sequencers around so that they can spend more slots on pewpew or something?

Am I missing something? Am I crazy?

What your missing is the fact that you can’t “cast the same spells anyway.” You can cast a very limited number of spells assigned to the sequencer. Where as before your cleric might have used spells, scrolls and potions and wands to cast a full set of zoo spells, Barkskin, shield, mage armor, aid, armor of faith, bless weapon, improved Invis, mind blank, NEP, death ward, mind blank, protection from evil, haste, freedom of movement and a half dozen other spells for a total of 20+, now you can only apply 4 or 6 limited buffs from a specific predetermined list, plus any AOE spells you might have.

Alright, so it's worse than I thought .. but of the spells that can be cast by sequencer, why do those same spells not work when cast by a character?

edit: Actually, I'm a little confused by your reply because a lot of the spells you listed are cast by sequencers.

You can only use one sequencer at a time. If you buff with a sequencer, then buff the same summon with another sequencer, it deletes the first set of buffs.

[Kalthariam]

So I have a question.

What is the difference between clearing a dungeon with a Henchmen using the associate tool to control them, and clearing a dungeon with a conjured summon using the associate tool to control them?

Henchmen are fully wardable now, the only difference mechanically between them is that henchmen you have to fight over availability (hope you picked the noble award), and alot of them are just awful or level capped hard, while the summon costs a spell slot (Or an epic feat).

Mechanically if someone picks up a henchman, and buffs them all up, they are literally doing the same thing with a henchman that they did with a conjured follower.

[Arienette]

So I have a question.

What is the difference between clearing a dungeon with a Henchmen using the associate tool to control them, and clearing a dungeon with a conjured summon using the associate tool to control them?

Henchmen are fully wardable now, the only difference mechanically between them is that henchmen you have to fight over availability (hope you picked the noble award), and alot of them are just awful or level capped hard, while the summon costs a spell slot (Or an epic feat).

Mechanically if someone picks up a henchman, and buffs them all up, they are literally doing the same thing with a henchman that they did with a conjured follower.

Henchmen are generally way weaker than comparable summons.

The sort of henchmen you might get at lvl 17 wont/didn’t hold a torch to an ancient elemental.

And once you get to lvl 21 and have planar conduits? Forget about it. No henchmen, even the strongest ones available, come close to planar conduit.

[xanrael]

Henchman are also on a different slot and it's not class dependent in that most anyone can get a henchman with a bit of Leadership gear (that you can swap out right after) and skill investment (or Animal Empathy if you're going that route).

So it's a relatively even playing field for the caster and mundane. Mundane might not have as many spells on scroll/wand tap but they're probably also drawing agro and hitting stuff themselves where the henchman represent less of their overall DPS/tanking.

[Kalthariam]

Okay, but part of the reason stated that summons got nerfed is "Beating the dungeon through the associate tool is something we don't like to see" or something along those lines.

But I can literally do this with someone like say the Duegar Dwarven Defender Henchman, fully buff them and then send them in with the associate tool, and have them clear the dungeon for me instead.

Sure many of the henchmen are level capped, but so is summon monster 9. I'd argue that the duegar dwarven defender henchman is significantly stronger than any ancient elemental, and it's controlled literally by the same methods. Sure it takes a noble character to hire that specific one, but you probably could make the Troglodyte Henchman more powerful with buffs than any sequenced elemental. And that one doesn't require an award.

Sure all you need is the leadership skill, but the best one's require 50 leadership to recruit, so you basically have to have some class with leadership as a class skill to realistically meet that requirement. Skill points at a bit easier to allocate in my opinion than 3-4 feats.

Really the only real problem with henchmen are they seem to never been available anymore.

[xanrael]

I suspect if the admins/devs start seeing players hiding behind a particular henchman to solo everything in epic content then that particular henchman will get nerfed.

Also many summons are being buffed taking the sequencer changes into account, it just hasn't hit live servers quite yet at the time of this post. Things will probably be in flux for the next few weeks as the balancing pendulum swings back and forth, with hopefully shorter swings as time passes.

[chris a gogo]

Henchmen aren't crit and mind immune.
Plus there AI is awful, stick improved invis or even normal invis on one and watch, it will just stand there and do nothing until the invis wears off even if you direct control it it will not attack.

I tested out the max level warlock summon in a mid-high teen area (myconids) unbuffed, it got it's Snuggybear handed to it which does go to show how badly all summons need buffs to survive even pre epic area's, confusion bolts elemental damage and raw physical damage had to down to near death very quickly, and that was just against the standard spawn group.

I then took it to the formarian giant area where i encountered the permanent strength draining breath attacks which are generally two mobs per group, which again you can't block without the sequencer and giving up all AC buffs.

Tested a druid's summons on the surface in the arelith forest area.

All fine until you walk past the gnoll area where every gnoll spiritualist casts spell breach at them while being covered in instant cast spell mantles and elemental resistance. beating them wasn't an issue but it removed the sequencers buffs and resulted in increased costs for something that didn't matter before because it was simple to restore but now takes my druid two RL hours to make each sequencer plus the gathering time.
The idea I could use my spell book for others things than buffs is true I now have 2 set ups almost all healing spells slotted as regenerate was a great time saver for summons which is now unavailable meaning i have to use healing circle and heal + mass heal level 8-9 for the heal spells, or carry lots and lots of healing kits.
Or I ignore healing and just slot elemental swarms and re-summon when they are dying neither has made the spell selection more fun, I was casting alot more offensive spells when I didn't have to waste so many slots for summons and healing.

Tested minmir and battle field on a druid with elemental swarm.
All fine switched spells back to a mixed bag of evocation and summons with 6 healing circles and 2 mass heal 1 heal and 2 back up elemental swarms, all buffed with druidic sequencer, worked well the animal companion died but not being crit immune with that many spawns is always a big issue, used fire elemental swarm so with bite back and better damage they tore through them, once animal companion re-summoned used orb candle which loses a couple of AC and around 60 HP but the concealment makes it a much better option, no issues with it after this.
I would suggest losing the stone skin off the druidic one and replacing it with monstrous regeneration would make it a better choice as stone skin is kind of pointless yes it lets you bypass DR but with the number of spawns you meet just walking to a place it's gone very quickly via damage or breaches, and it's not cost effective to replace it.

[Apothys]

Having played a conjuration specialist and seeing how powerful i could get my elementals and then Planar Conduit i can see why this is all happening. Time to slot a few more Dispels and get a bunch of kick Snuggybear spells to help my minions with combat. Personally i find this new update quite thrilling. I hated the sit back and allow my minions to do everything. In fact it had put me off playing a summoner period. Now there will be a lot more running away and screaming as i realize i cannot do this alone, now the danger is real!

As for the crafting i think once i get my head around it, it will be fine. This is a much easier solution than having Irongron and the dev team constantly tweaking summons. It gives a baseline for the summons and Devs an easier time working out what can and cannot be applied to them, this then allows them to work out how hard dungeons need to be. How many players they believe should be running the dungeons if more than one etc etc.

As for believability... we make allowances for our toons backgrounds and abilities all the time finding a way to justify our uniqueness, this is no exception. We should rp it, bring it into the game. Something to write about in the Arelith history books.

[xf1313]

Having played a conjuration specialist and seeing how powerful i could get my elementals and then Planar Conduit i can see why this is all happening. Time to slot a few more Dispels and get a bunch of kick Snuggybear spells to help my minions with combat. Personally i find this new update quite thrilling. I hated the sit back and allow my minions to do everything. In fact it had put me off playing a summoner period. Now there will be a lot more running away and screaming as i realize i cannot do this alone, now the danger is real!

As for the crafting i think once i get my head around it, it will be fine. This is a much easier solution than having Irongron and the dev team constantly tweaking summons. It gives a baseline for the summons and Devs an easier time working out what can and cannot be applied to them, this then allows them to work out how hard dungeons need to be. How many players they believe should be running the dungeons if more than one etc etc.

As for believability... we make allowances for our toons backgrounds and abilities all the time finding a way to justify our uniqueness, this is no exception. We should rp it, bring it into the game. Something to write about in the Arelith history books.

I know how it feels like to stay behind

I want to fire spells at enermies

But they did nothing about the spell Aggro, it is literally sit and do nothing or die for wizards. I say this with ridiculous death number piled up on my wizard, especially in low lv. And I kept rescuing those I teamed with...if we do not have enough meat shield to block the path

[-XXX-]

You can do the old True Flamer trick and blast things from inside a darkness bubble.
It might not be 100% reliable (as the AI sometimes blatantly disregards effects such as blindness, invisibility or darkness), but it still works well enough.

[MRFTW]

I've restrained from commenting thus far, but my main gripe is more busywork and less player choice.

We always had two options as casters when it came to buffs: either we take/prepare those spells, or we put in the legwork and buy wands of the same spells which in most cases are more than good enough, and allow you to prepare or select utility/offensive spells instead.

It's strictly more optimal to do the latter for the vast majority of spells (zoo buffs, death ward, other hr/level spells), but it's vastly easier not to. Many sorc/shaman/FS players won't have some or all zoo spells in their spellbook, because there are some interesting other options out there, providing you can source your buffs reliably. Others will have every zoo buff and nothing in terms of damage or CC. I liked that, variety is good and a core identity of my class, shaman, in particular.

We used to have options when it came to buffing our summons: do the runaround or suck it up and cast them yourself. Now players are forced to do busywork to buff their summons. I was happy to pay the price to buff my own summons, I didn't have as many damage spells available, but I got to avoid the tedium of shopping for consumables.

I play a water genasi that doesn't need to drink, who has replenishment so they don't need to carry food or water and can avoid resting for extended gameplay sessions. My character used to be fantastic at avoiding the optional gameplay systems that I don't enjoy and that felt like I really had the ability to have a 'get up and go' character.

Now I can't just rest to get my spells back, log out in whichever safe corner of the world I find and carry on my adventure when I next have time - now I've got to go shopping or crafting occasionally because my summons aren't good enough any more, two optional game mechanics that I didn't have to engage with before.

I'm not trying to dunk on crafting or player shops at all. It's fun sometimes and I'm really glad it's there because lots of players love it and I'm glad they do. I enjoy it myself from time to time, but crafting/shopping have gone from things I like to do sometimes to things I have to spend more time on than I'd prefer to.

---

Regarding the future of this from a design perspective, I can totally see and get behind the idea of summon 'loadouts', one or two of which can be applied to a chassis to form a semi-unique, modular summon that has levers that devs can adjust to tweak power. It's a good design philosophy, and when done right it gives players the feeling of flexibility.

To ease this through on a gameplay level, I have a suggestion: Buff Summon - a spell that is similar to Shadow Conjuration, with subspells that do the different types of buff loadouts available from crafting now. If a cost really must be applied, like the time sink of crafting/shopping is, it could be made a high level spell so that the cost is the already established piety/component cost rather than this entirely new busywork we have now. Buff Summon (better name pending) would re-enable the nomadic playstyle than I used to be able to do for much longer periods, while still conforming to the new 'loadout' system but exchanging a time cost for an opportunity cost (known/memorized spells).

[Guerra]

As the dust settles, adding a craft item that’s all but essential to play a caster who summons but not letting us redo our trade skill investment is my biggest gripe. A pre existing character is at a big disadvantage if they can’t craft their own.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

As the dust settles, adding a craft item that’s all but essential to play a caster who summons but not letting us redo our trade skill investment is my biggest gripe. A pre existing character is at a big disadvantage if they can’t craft their own.

This is a really good point and I'm surprised the DM team is denying skill point refunds, I've read a lot of complaints in discord from people who have been denied. So it's not just you. I'm not sure if the DM team is following the thread, it might be good to message Titania asking about it since crafting skills now severely impact a class in a new way.


Otherwise, the old fashioned way to re-adjust skill points you can probably still do. You ask to be deleveled (as in, xp deleted from you, you need to go out and get those levels again), you get to re-take 2 points per level you are refunded. Just be sure to remove skill points before you take a level, taking a level will disable it.

This option is a bit nasty now that writs can only be done once, but, it's better than nothing.

[xf1313]

As the dust settles, adding a craft item that’s all but essential to play a caster who summons but not letting us redo our trade skill investment is my biggest gripe. A pre existing character is at a big disadvantage if they can’t craft their own.

This is a really good point and I'm surprised the DM team is denying skill point refunds, I've read a lot of complaints in discord from people who have been denied. So it's not just you. I'm not sure if the DM team is following the thread, it might be good to message Titania asking about it since crafting skills now severely impact a class in a new way.


Otherwise, the old fashioned way to re-adjust skill points you can probably still do. You ask to be deleveled (as in, xp deleted from you, you need to go out and get those levels again), you get to re-take 2 points per level you are refunded. Just be sure to remove skill points before you take a level, taking a level will disable it.

This option is a bit nasty now that writs can only be done once, but, it's better than nothing.

For characters that did almost all the writ this is a less desirable option, I hope we have a skill refund for everyone...who would have thought shadow dancer needs to worry about buffing now?

[Kalthariam]

You can do the old True Flamer trick and blast things from inside a darkness bubble.
It might not be 100% reliable (as the AI sometimes blatantly disregards effects such as blindness, invisibility or darkness), but it still works well enough.

Doesn't that really only work for the old true flames because they have infinite spell casts?

[-XXX-]

Ultravision lasts for days and darkness wands/potions exist.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

I made a new wizard. Has greater conjuration focus. I'm Cordor starting, because there's a variety of easy and hard writs there, I can check out the harder newer writs Gron has made as well as see how summons do with the easier old writs.

I am going to avoid using sequencers unless content is too difficult without them.

Another thing to note. I'm using acid arrow and cantrips from the get-go. I'm doing a lot of extra damage and am cutting through content quicker, so my experiences might not reflect the experiences of someone who casts a summon and sits and lets it do all the damage.
If you have issues grabbing aggro, set your summon to attack something, and then use acid arrow or a cantrip once it's attacking your summon. Whatever you're attacking will probably be dead by the time it turns around to go after you. You can also use the cantrip resistance on yourself for some DR. It's not much but it helps.


I was so eager to get started I forgot to do the delivery quest. So I ran around at level 2 with a dire boar.
Impressions so far of the dire boar:
I like the increase in HP. It might have too much AC and it might do too much damage. I can clear out the Cordor sewers no problem, including the sewer gang writ. This boar is in absolutely zero danger. But a fresh level 2 has very few resources, so overall this probably isn't an issue. Lets people get some coins to buy heal kits.

The boar starts to run into trouble in the archives, the spiders are a threat to it, I need to heal it after every one or two fights. I got absolutely destroyed by the gnome boss. But I've also never attempted the archives at level 2 and with a boar before.


Tomorrow I will review the dire wolf.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

Day 2: The Dire Wolf

I'm level 4 and picked up the Lost Tunnels, Trouble in the Coal Mine, and the patrol writ.

Lost Tunnels:
The wolf is very strong. Everything is dying before I can get a spell off. Knockdown, cleave, and all of the damage it gets is ripping through everything.

Trouble in the Coal Mine:
More of the same. Summon was in very little danger and ripped everything up. I was able to get some spells in to help this time though!

Overall it's way too strong. It does a lot of damage very quickly. Cleave lets it chew through things. I do like cleave as a feat on summons, it changes target immediately after killing something which lets me cast on a new target without having to wait for the summon to get a hit off. But with the amount of damage it's doing, it's often killing whatever it cleaves outright.

I'm starting to think I should stop testing until summons get nerfed, they're way too strong right now. I hope they will still have decent HP and AC after nerfing though. I like the idea of summons being tanky, giving me an opportunity to cast offensive spells. If I'm focused too much on healing my summon, I don't get to cast.


There is one issue that I'm noticing with summons, they're a significantly higher level than me. I'm gaining less XP. Is there any way you could lower their level?

[In Sorrow We Trust]

Day 2: The Dire Wolf

I'm level 4 and picked up the Lost Tunnels, Trouble in the Coal Mine, and the patrol writ.

Lost Tunnels:
The wolf is very strong. Everything is dying before I can get a spell off. Knockdown, cleave, and all of the damage it gets is ripping through everything.

Trouble in the Coal Mine:
More of the same. Summon was in very little danger and ripped everything up. I was able to get some spells in to help this time though!

Overall it's way too strong. It does a lot of damage very quickly. Cleave lets it chew through things. I do like cleave as a feat on summons, it changes target immediately after killing something which lets me cast on a new target without having to wait for the summon to get a hit off. But with the amount of damage it's doing, it's often killing whatever it cleaves outright.

I'm starting to think I should stop testing until summons get nerfed, they're way too strong right now. I hope they will still have decent HP and AC after nerfing though. I like the idea of summons being tanky, giving me an opportunity to cast offensive spells. If I'm focused too much on healing my summon, I don't get to cast.


There is one issue that I'm noticing with summons, they're a significantly higher level than me. I'm gaining less XP. Is there any way you could lower their level?

They lose APR if I do, but it can be done.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

Oh no. Oh no.

[hi chat]

Day 2: The Dire Wolf

I'm level 4 and picked up the Lost Tunnels, Trouble in the Coal Mine, and the patrol writ.

Lost Tunnels:
The wolf is very strong. Everything is dying before I can get a spell off. Knockdown, cleave, and all of the damage it gets is ripping through everything.

Trouble in the Coal Mine:
More of the same. Summon was in very little danger and ripped everything up. I was able to get some spells in to help this time though!

Overall it's way too strong. It does a lot of damage very quickly. Cleave lets it chew through things. I do like cleave as a feat on summons, it changes target immediately after killing something which lets me cast on a new target without having to wait for the summon to get a hit off. But with the amount of damage it's doing, it's often killing whatever it cleaves outright.

I'm starting to think I should stop testing until summons get nerfed, they're way too strong right now. I hope they will still have decent HP and AC after nerfing though. I like the idea of summons being tanky, giving me an opportunity to cast offensive spells. If I'm focused too much on healing my summon, I don't get to cast.


There is one issue that I'm noticing with summons, they're a significantly higher level than me. I'm gaining less XP. Is there any way you could lower their level?

Should probably mention Dire Wolves could cut through these writs unwarded and before the buffs, anyway. They're just not hard writs - they're starting content.

[Jan Skorvo]

Day 2: The Dire Wolf

I'm level 4 and picked up the Lost Tunnels, Trouble in the Coal Mine, and the patrol writ.

Lost Tunnels:
The wolf is very strong. Everything is dying before I can get a spell off. Knockdown, cleave, and all of the damage it gets is ripping through everything.

Trouble in the Coal Mine:
More of the same. Summon was in very little danger and ripped everything up. I was able to get some spells in to help this time though!

Overall it's way too strong. It does a lot of damage very quickly. Cleave lets it chew through things. I do like cleave as a feat on summons, it changes target immediately after killing something which lets me cast on a new target without having to wait for the summon to get a hit off. But with the amount of damage it's doing, it's often killing whatever it cleaves outright.

I'm starting to think I should stop testing until summons get nerfed, they're way too strong right now. I hope they will still have decent HP and AC after nerfing though. I like the idea of summons being tanky, giving me an opportunity to cast offensive spells. If I'm focused too much on healing my summon, I don't get to cast.


There is one issue that I'm noticing with summons, they're a significantly higher level than me. I'm gaining less XP. Is there any way you could lower their level?

They lose APR if I do, but it can be done.

Please do not nerf or change summons level based on someone attempting the starter content in Cordor...

[In Sorrow We Trust]

Day 2: The Dire Wolf

I'm level 4 and picked up the Lost Tunnels, Trouble in the Coal Mine, and the patrol writ.

Lost Tunnels:
The wolf is very strong. Everything is dying before I can get a spell off. Knockdown, cleave, and all of the damage it gets is ripping through everything.

Trouble in the Coal Mine:
More of the same. Summon was in very little danger and ripped everything up. I was able to get some spells in to help this time though!

Overall it's way too strong. It does a lot of damage very quickly. Cleave lets it chew through things. I do like cleave as a feat on summons, it changes target immediately after killing something which lets me cast on a new target without having to wait for the summon to get a hit off. But with the amount of damage it's doing, it's often killing whatever it cleaves outright.

I'm starting to think I should stop testing until summons get nerfed, they're way too strong right now. I hope they will still have decent HP and AC after nerfing though. I like the idea of summons being tanky, giving me an opportunity to cast offensive spells. If I'm focused too much on healing my summon, I don't get to cast.


There is one issue that I'm noticing with summons, they're a significantly higher level than me. I'm gaining less XP. Is there any way you could lower their level?

They lose APR if I do, but it can be done.

Please do not nerf or change summons level based on someone attempting the starter content in Cordor...

It's the only feedback I have.

[Scurvy Cur]

We can fix the feedback issue.

Basically everything that was buffed in the last update was buffed too much. Across all levels. And not "a little too much". I've been taking BG summons to 61 AC and 53 AB, as an example on one end of the spectrum.

On the other end of the spectrum, it is now optimal levelling practice for any level 3-5 character to use summon creature III scrolls as soon as they can buy them, because the wolf unexplicably has 30 AC and 16 AB with no buffs whatsoever. This is enough to safely solo the bloodmoon orcs (a level 8-10ish dungeon) so long as you don't go deeper than the first floor, for 30-40 XP a kill, for as long as your heal kits last.

My personal suggestion here is to revert every change made in the last round of summon buffs, and instead apply a relatively moderate +2 AC and +2 AB adjustment to everything in the summon I-IX line.

BG/Warlock summons are trickier, because they draw from the same pool, only BG gets a lot more mileage out of them thanks to div might/div shield/stacking bull's strength. Here, I would buff the baseline summons by about 5 AC, after reverting your changes of last week, and perhaps 1-2 AB and disable blackguard div might/div shield summon buffs.

BG may need a revisit eventually, and more summon buff features disabled, but I regard this as a thing that probably ought to happen anyway, to allow summon warlocks to do well and eventually to make Blackguard less reliant on the strength of its summon (short version here is that evil lacks a particularly strong option for dedicated divine melee which isn't also a summon dispenser, but it's hard to advocate for finishing some of BG's less-polished discomfort points so long as the summon is overwhelming).