Monkey Grip

[-XXX-]

Large races allow some PvP optimization skews. Most notably nigh irresistible IKD and I suspect that disarm might get some mentions soon after the recent wave of updates.

The maluses that large races receive can be coped with. The number skews that they introduce to the game less so. I'm merely pointing this out as something for the balance team to be conscious of (which I suspect they already are).


Furthermore, none of the large races can be taken without an award. Having award races that unlock powerful and unique PvP gimmicks isn't good IMO.

[Algol]

I thought AB penalty from size sort of balanced out the KD size bonus.

[Mattamue]

Generally, AB and maluses don't work like anyone thinks they do. I'll add this to the conversation as a caution that any review of the true bonuses from collosal needs some research.

Case and point, IKD does not have the ab bonus you think it might when the +20 cap is in play. You might say you already knew this. Or you might say the point is the baseline ab that's not affected by the cap. That's fine, I'm not arguing the actual bonuses. I'm saying do the homework before making any claims is all:

[Kenji]

For anyone still confused about the difference between KD and Disarm, here are the two posts that summarize them:

Knockdown/Improved Knockdown will always be made at a -4 AB, it is the discipline opposing checks that are made with size category in mind.

Only disarm and improved disarm are made with AB differences along with discipline differences based on opposing weapon sizes.

Example: A firbolg with 52 AB and IKD attempts to knock down a halfling, large size vs small size made it 50 AB + d20, let's assume firbolg rolled a 15 which results in 65 AB.
The knockdown attempt is then made at 61 AB, the discipline check for the halfling is 73 due to size difference of huge (5) vs small (2) which is 3 * 4 = 12.

A Large Weapon can Improve Disarm the following weapons with a bonus to AB:
Large vs Medium: +0 AB
Large vs Small: +4 AB
Large vs Tiny: +8 AB
Large vs Large: -4 AB (But this just means the opponent isn't wielding a shield unless it's a Large PC)

Example: A firbolg with 52 AB wielding a huge weapon and Improved Disarm attempts to disarm a character with a tiny kukri. The creatures' large vs. small size made it 50 AB + d20. Let's assume firbolg rolled a 15, which results in 65 AB.
The disarm attempt is then made at 65 + 12 = 77 AB, the discipline check is 77.

• KD never adds to AB and the discipline check is dependent on creature sizes and rolled AB.
• Disarm depends on weapon sizes and will have AB bonus or malus depending on the differences. Disarm does not depend on creature sizes. Creature sizes only indirectly affect Disarm by the virtue of having different access to weapons of different sizes.

[-XXX-]

Passing a discipline check at DC 73* can be difficult for any non-STR build. Even after putting 33 ranks into their disc + taking ESF:disc and adding +1str +2 disc on all their gear, they'll end up somewhere around 70 - and even then they wouldn't be completely safe from dying to what's essentially one melee attack.

*note that in the above example the DC can creep up to 78

[Kenji]

I edited a minor mistake on the post, the adjusted values are 77 AB and discipline check.

If a defender is wielding a large weapon instead of a tiny one against the disarming huge weapon, then both the AB for the attacker and the discipline check for the defender will be 65 instead of 77 for the example above.

[Richrd]

Furthermore, none of the large races can be taken without an award. Having award races that unlock powerful and unique PvP gimmicks isn't good IMO.

I am surprised it took this long to get pointed out.

Yes, award races inherently being strong makes it less about the RP but more about the lootbox-esque reward system and just promotes powergrinding.

Now of course with the recent change that got ever so slightly curbed. But that does not change the fact that currently there is one obviously best way to play a 2handed melee character. And that's by going for a major award into a large race.

[Kenji]

Furthermore, none of the large races can be taken without an award. Having award races that unlock powerful and unique PvP gimmicks isn't good IMO.

I am surprised it took this long to get pointed out.

Yes, award races inherently being strong makes it less about the RP but more about the lootbox-esque reward system and just promotes powergrinding.

Now of course with the recent change that got ever so slightly curbed. But that does not change the fact that currently there is one obviously best way to play a 2handed melee character. And that's by going for a major award into a large race.

What does this have to anything do with Monkey Grip again?

[Arienette]

From a developer perspective, is it possible to cap the disarm bonus to 8, even against Tiny weapons?

[Richrd]

Furthermore, none of the large races can be taken without an award. Having award races that unlock powerful and unique PvP gimmicks isn't good IMO.

I am surprised it took this long to get pointed out.

Yes, award races inherently being strong makes it less about the RP but more about the lootbox-esque reward system and just promotes powergrinding.

Now of course with the recent change that got ever so slightly curbed. But that does not change the fact that currently there is one obviously best way to play a 2handed melee character. And that's by going for a major award into a large race.

What does this have to anything do with Monkey Grip again?

The fact that we are talking about a feat that grants the ability to normal sized PCs to use huge weapons that are otherwise restricted to large PCs only. You know, pretty big deal I'd say but maybe I am completely wrong.

[-XXX-]

I mistakingly assumed that monkey grip was intended for lagre races for some reason, but after rereading the thread I see now that it's intended as a general feat for everyone. Well, that's somehow even worse IMO:

- we'd see cutsy cartoonish tiny PCs with big swords running around. As if we didn't get enough of that in other games already.
- we'd get an avenue for getting the best disarm possible while circumventing the biggest downside to that strategy (AC loss due to the absence of shield)

As demonstrated above, special attacks are so powerful that even building and gearing for discipline often isn't enough.
KD, IKD and disarm are meta warping abilities already (called shot can be quite oppressive as well). They certainly don't need to get any better (directly or indirectly).

[Atlus]

How the larger weapons look on smaller characters is a matter of taste and has nothing to do with gameplay fundamentals. We've played this game perfectly fine for years with how huge greatswords originally were.

I think somehow capping the bonus would be preferable. The feat already systemically penalizes you for -2 AB as is.

[Kenji]

I am surprised it took this long to get pointed out.

Yes, award races inherently being strong makes it less about the RP but more about the lootbox-esque reward system and just promotes powergrinding.

Now of course with the recent change that got ever so slightly curbed. But that does not change the fact that currently there is one obviously best way to play a 2handed melee character. And that's by going for a major award into a large race.

What does this have to anything do with Monkey Grip again?

The fact that we are talking about a feat that grants the ability to normal sized PCs to use huge weapons that are otherwise restricted to large PCs only. You know, pretty big deal I'd say but maybe I am completely wrong.

Wouldn't that contradict what you were claiming, though? Huge weapons first being available to only large races, which are greater reward+ only makes it an unhealthy system. And then the Monkey Grip feat allows medium races to contend with the large races via getting the same access to huge weapons, making the reward argument moot.

The next thing I imagine you would've gotten to was how large races, with monkey grip, would be able to do Huge Weapon + Shield (with an AB malus and no 1.5x str ofc). They become the only races capable of doing so then, but I'd like to refer to this particular post pertaining to asymmetrical designs:
viewtopic.php?f=37&t=37766&p=296170#p296170

Don't get me wrong, the mechanical size of the huge weapons has plenty of cause for concern, thanks to what Improved Disarm has enabled. However, the argument here should not be focused on racial rewards and the reward system but rather on the huge weapon size and disarm mechanics itself.

If the meta is full of 2Handers and not dual-wielders with tiny weapons, then all improved disarm does is +4 AB, +2 AB, +0 AB, -2 AB, or -4 AB, depending on monkey grip and/or medium/large race. The question then should have been: "What about the poor tiny and small weapons/races that will become less and less relevant in the melee meta?"

We may have an answer for that entirely different discussion somewhere else Soon™

I mistakingly assumed that monkey grip was intended for lagre races for some reason, but after rereading the thread I see now that it's intended as a general feat for everyone. Well, that's somehow even worse IMO:

- we'd see cutsy cartoonish tiny PCs with big swords running around. As if we didn't get enough of that in other games already.
- we'd get an avenue for getting the best disarm possible while circumventing the biggest downside to that strategy (AC loss due to the absence of shield)

As demonstrated above, special attacks are so powerful that even building and gearing for discipline often isn't enough.
KD, IKD and disarm are meta warping abilities already (called shot can be quite oppressive as well). They certainly don't need to get any better (directly or indirectly).

As answered by Atlus above:

How the larger weapons look on smaller characters is a matter of taste and has nothing to do with gameplay fundamentals. We've played this game perfectly fine for years with how huge greatswords originally were.

I think somehow capping the bonus would be preferable. The feat already systemically penalizes you for -2 AB as is.

A medium race build requires a 3-feat investment in order to utilize huge weapons to the fullest with the introduction of Monkey Grip. This eliminated plenty of builds that are feat-starved or not synergistic with 2Handing in the first place, namely some (not all) of the dedicated Paladins, Blackguards, Rangers, battle casters, or weapon master builds. The builds that benefit the most from the introduction of Huge Weapons and Monkey Grip would be the feat-up-the-A builds like 25 ftr / 5 /WM or some Base class/CoT/WM builds.

For those builds that already achieve this using large weapons, this can all be grossly simplified to an extra +2 AB for 1 feat, which is, of course, very good. For any other builds that can not afford the full list of feats, however, it is just a -2 AB for +2 average dmg. The team is already aware of this a while ago, and we'll find the right adjustment to all of this in eventuality.

[-XXX-]

Sure, on their own neither large races, nor monkey grip would have been a big deal.

What it ties all together are DC 70+ discipline checks and how both large races and monkey grip play into those.

[Kenji]

Sure, on their own neither large races, nor monkey grip would have been a big deal.

What it ties all together are DC 70+ discipline checks and how both large races and monkey grip play into those.

Again, large races do nothing other than enabling the huge weapon to Disarm. If a medium creature with monkey grip wields a huge weapon, the discipline checks are almost the same, except medium creatures get 1 AB higher and 2 AB less (from monkey grip) than large creatures when vs. small creatures.

The discipline check that matters with creature sizes is the knockdown attempts, which have nothing to do with monkey grip. Last I checked, one can't both knockdown and disarm simultaneously.

The combination for both large races and monkey grip would simply be Huge Weapon + Shield, which not only removes the +1 AB 2H bonus and also receives the -2 AB malus from monkey grip. Overall a 3-feat investment for +1 AB. The off-the-charts discipline checks are already a pre-existing concern exacerbated by the introduction of huge weapons.

It's the other way around. On their own, each and one of them present a problem:
Large races get boosted Knockdown discipline checks
Huge weapons get boosted Disarm AB AND discipline checks which Monkey Grip might introduce further (but also addresses the large race reward-only mechanical powerhouse argument slightly)

Large races and monkey grip combined are ironically the least of our worries.

[-XXX-]

DC 70+ discipline checks = bad (regardless of whether we're talking IKD or disam here)
Huge weapons enable large races to abuse disarm. Monkey grip would allow everybody to do it.
That'd not only fail to address the issue, it'd make it even more widespread.

[Kenji]

DC 70+ discipline checks = bad (regardless of whether we're talking IKD or disam here)
Huge weapons enable large races to abuse disarm. Monkey grip would allow everybody to do it.
That'd not only fail to address the issue, it'd make it even more widespread.

For those builds that already achieve this using large weapons, this can all be grossly simplified to an extra +2 AB for 1 feat, which is, of course, very good. For any other builds that can not afford the full list of feats, however, it is just a -2 AB for +2 average dmg. The team is already aware of this a while ago, and we'll find the right adjustment to all of this in eventuality.

I'd appreciate it if you could move on and stop beating the same horse. It'll be more productive for all of us.

[-XXX-]

I'd appreciate it if you could move on and stop beating the same horse. It'll be more productive for all of us.

And I'd appreciate a little less condescension, especially after having so blatantly disregarded the major balance concern being expressed here 3x in a row.
I am condfident that DC 82 disarm checks are going to make up for a wonderful addition to the game (same way as DC 78 IKD ones do already).

I thank you for all the effort that you're putting into the game and as per request I'm going to productively shut up now.

[Kenji]

There's no condescension, I simply pointed out most of your misconceptions of the existing mechanics and meta. One can already build a human ftr/cot/wm with a large weapon and improved disarm against a tiny weapon with a massive AB bonus as pointed out in this post (nearly a year ago):
viewtopic.php?f=37&t=34676&p=272650&p272650#p272650

Do huge weapons help? No, of course not. And the team has been aware for a while now. But if you're willfully ignoring this statement by saying it's "blatantly disregarding,":

The team is already aware of this a while ago, and we'll find the right adjustment to all of this in eventuality.

Then I don't know what else to say to you other than take a chill pill and move on. Anger isn't good for your health.

[TurningLeaf]

Well I don't see many monks around, if disarm meta became a thing maybe that would change

[Richrd]

The fact that we are talking about a feat that grants the ability to normal sized PCs to use huge weapons that are otherwise restricted to large PCs only. You know, pretty big deal I'd say but maybe I am completely wrong.

We are talking about a feat that does not exist yet (AFAIK at least, maybe I missed out on an update in that regard in which case my bad woops). That's why I pointed out the whole thing about large races, major awards, so on and so forth. But as you said in that post too, it would also allow large races to then wield a huge weapon + a shield.

Yes, ultimately one could just say "oh it's just +/- 2 ab" but in a numbers based game, even more so on a server with such a prevalent powerbuilding culture, these plus-minus two AB/AC/whatever can already mean a whole lot.

[Arienette]

Random shower thought.

Idunno about “monkey grip” but it seems like Kenji and others have been thinking about it quite a bit.

What about a normal or greater award that, instead of selecting a Giant race, allowed you to play an existing race that is just unusually large?

Like, you select the award and then you get to play as a human/half orc/whatever that is just… really big?

Then you are locked in when selecting your tall-short size to the tallest size, and your character has all or some of the mechanical changes that that larger size creature has?

Could either just straight up make the human mechanically Large size, or give them the ability to use Huge weapons or some combination of things.

Not sure this is feasible or even better than just introducing a feat like Monkey Grip. Just an idea.

[Ork]

Disarm is the only combat maneuver that gains AB. Might be wise to remove the AB bonus and make disarm lockout attack actions to 1 like old cavalier charge did for a few rounds (and kick the weapon out of their hand for a few rounds).

Monkey Grip is a pretty silly feat, and we start transitioning from nwn to monster hunter real fast.

[Algol]

Monkey Grip is a pretty silly feat, and we start transitioning from nwn to monster hunter real fast.

But monkey grip would allow me to dual wield battle axes and be optimal like a berserker of Khorne.

But I do agree a halfling with a greatsword or a halberd might look a bit silly. Or a human with collosal stuff. Depending on the models scale.

[Atlus]

As I said earlier, how these weapons look on smaller races is very moot.

What I personally find currently unfair is the weapon models added to colossal swords are based on weapons wielded by human-sized characters in other fictional material (there's a buster sword and gut's dragon slayer under colossal swords). So by virtue of that, those weapons are MORE than deserving to be used by those smaller races!