Regarding Invokers: Antisynergy

[AskRyze]

Regarding Elementalist:

Elementalist is in a really good spot right now. If anything, I consider it to be... A little cranked. Solo it suffers, but you get even one other person in a group and it really shines as an overwhelming artillery piece. As long as I'm drinking my booze like the highly-functioning alcoholic every wizard is, I rarely feel like I need to take more than a few seconds' downtime in a given zone, especially if I'm managing my Focus correctly. However, there's one component of it's kit that I never use: Elemental Overcharge.

I don't know if I'm just missing the use case for this ability. I... Genuinely don't get why I would ever want to press the button? The idea is that you exchange a MP drain for a HP drain. However, the ability drains more MP than the spells you could have cast with it in most cases barring spamming out 7-9th level spells like a lunatic, and during average dungeon content you really don't need it. If you're reasonably conservative with your spellcasting and, again, keep your booze/rest in check like I'm sure we've all learned to do by this point, I've never ran into a situation while leveling that wasn't solved by taking a quick rest to restore most of my Focus and getting right back on the horse.

Similarly, you would never press this button in PVP. You're already a d6 class that doesn't have a CON emphasis. In a high-stakes situation you simply don't have the HP to burn, casting two spells a round for anywhere between 10 and 20 damage a cast? God forbid you're making the poor decision of going pure 30 and don't have discipline either. You're already nothing more than 2 crits and 25 XP to the average weaponmanster, why would you do half of his job for him?

The only possible use case I can think of is to mitigate Focus expenditure, but even that is prohibitive. Again, in PVP, encounters rarely last long enough to warrant using the ability to prevent Focus loss (even disregarding the HP drain), and in PvE I rarely see the need to use that instead of just drinking a liter of booze and resting. Moreover the ability seems designed to encourage use at High Focus levels, not low Focus, making it really feel like an ability that I genuinely don't see why I would ever want to press it.

That being said - I think the theme of the ability is really cool, but the reward is not worth chasing. It's gonna have to do more than exchange MP for HP cost in order to convince me to use it.

Upon my first review I realized that I completely forgot the ability has a -20 AC penalty. Holy cats on a cracker. Just goes to show, button's never been pressed in my elementalist's career and I can't see myself doing it until the ability gets a serious revision.

Regarding Hemomancer:

I love Hemomancer just as much as I love Elementalist, but for a lot of opposite reasons. I love Hemomancer's focus management and how it rewards attention to detail and intelligent gameplay. I like all the quality of life spells that Hemomancer provides, and understand that the focus regain prevents it from having a wide breadth of genuinely useful attack spells at early levels. However, I'm still going to express a couple of small gripes. Nothing near as total as the previous remark

Firstly, I found that I was really not sure what I wanted to do with Hemomancer at low levels (sub-6th or so). There really aren't a lot of good spells to cast, simply put - once it gets over that hump (praise the thunder god, we all worship at the church of Call Lightning) and once it gets its planar summon it's more than acceptable. But before that point, it struggles, and the struggle is real.

Secondly, Dear Lord is Red Harvest hard to land on pre-epic enemies and higher. If I'm going to be managing focus on enemies then I've got to get that killshot, and even Deep Giants have Near-Death HP that's higher than what I'm dealing at 10 Blood Stacks. I might consider adding an execute component to Red Harvest at 10 stacks to fit with the theme and prevent frustration from having to guess how much damage your ant/toad can do to the enemy before you hit them with RH to get your Focus back?

Speaking of the planar summons, I hear what people are saying when they use the focus succ on their summoned pets. I'll admit it's a temptation. That said, let's lean into the necromantic theme for a minute: Replace the planar summon line with Animate Undead line. It'll add Necromancy synergy (and make taking Necro focus a genuine option worth considering over Evo Focus) and already synergizes well with Negative Burst and Negative Ray that are already present in the Hemomancer's kit. And, as the cherry on the cake... People can't just succ off their ant/toad and bank on their summon's regen to keep them topped off.

Finally, let's talk about Massacre. I want to like Massacre. I want to use Massacre. I really do and I really would. But at 7th level, I can't justify casting it. Spell components are hard enough to come by without pigeon-holing yourself into either art or alchemy, and I'd rather spend those in a time of great need rather than on a single-target damage spell with AOE riders if you kill the target, which is never guaranteed. I can't empower it or maximize it either, which makes it fall even further behind it's taller, stronger, better-looking cousin that's accessible two levels earlier: Elemental Hammer, the spell everyone knows and loves that dazes entire crowds and deals 90+ damage to whole rooms on a successful save when empowered, at 5th level, for no component cost and a pittance of Focus. I've seen (and been) an invoker who casts Hammer and Chain Lightning clear an entire pack by themselves without blinking. Meanwhile, my poor, poor hemomancer has to spend gold to access an ability that only damages one target at a time, and doesn't even affect nearly half the enemies in the module because bleed damage doesn't affect oozes, constructs, undead, etc. Please change Massacre to 6th level. Make the button worth pressing, because with a name like Massacre it'd be a true waste to have it rotting on my spell list.

Regarding Eschew Components:

Why is this here? I mean, I know, I've just come back from complaining about needing to spend components to cast spells, "BuT yOu DoNt HaVe To UsE cOmPoNeNtS aFtEr 28tH lEvEl", the rube might say. And he'd be right, but that doesn't help you from levels 14-27, and I feel like all too often we assume that all characters are already level 30 and forget that it takes a long time to get there. The only conclusion that I can come to is that it's a carrot at the end of the stick that is an attempt to encourage people to fulfill the pure 30 fantasy. Sure, if you're a warlock, wildmage, or spellsword, then the pure 30 fantasy works for you because your entire kit centers around caster levels, you have ten different things screaming for you to keep your CL high and at that point yeah, it's worth it. But on an Invoker, your tools are your spells, and most of your spells really stop caring about your CL once you hit 20. You'll want it higher than that to keep your stuff from getting dispelled, but apart from spells that are too prohibitive to spamcast you aren't going to be using anything that needs you to have 30 CL.

You've already shut off div dips by design (thank you, by the way, that would have been cancerous) but even discounting that, there's too much to be gained from taking a 3 level dip. Bard gives you discipline, tumble, UMD, a pittance of AB with song, appraise if you budget for it. Monk is monk and we all know how much AC you get from even considering adding that to your character sheet. Warlock could grant you Disc+Tumble+UMD, regen and minor DR, or any number of other cool quality of life things. Ranger gives you another Epic Spell Focus and, again, access to great skills. The flexibility and variety that the 3-level late dip grants is so overwhelming that the 28+ level investment feels like a trap.

And yet, the presence of Eschew Components does wrap that forbidden fruit in a juicy caramel coating. Hemomancer weeps that its signature spells are gated away behind component use but frankly it needs a dip to survive high end content, its spell list doesn't have the gas it needs without draining an entire district's coffers every rest. Elementalist, on the flipside, doesn't care about mortal concerns like component usage, hammer spammer go brr. Thusly, if the designer's intention is to bait people into going 30 Invoker by dangling a cure to my crippling malachite addiction in front of me, they're going to have to present a larger incentive.

[Luingar]

Thank you for posting this.

[Mattamue]

Good read and well thought out feedback. I have one thing to call out. CL does matter to offensive spells and therefore invokers. Racial SR was nerfed, but you still want enough caster levels to reliably beat the 26 SR hat. I don't think you were advocating for 20 invokers, but to plainly say it: 20 invoker / 10 something is not a good idea.

Edit: Unless you stack in spell pen or something wild.

d20 + caster level + spell penetration vs. SR

[AskRyze]

Good read and well thought out feedback. I have one thing to call out. CL does matter to offensive spells and therefore invokers. Racial SR was nerfed, but you still want enough caster levels to reliably beat the 26 SR hat. I don't think you were advocating for 20 invokers, but to plainly say it: 20 invoker / 10 something is not a good idea.

Oh, no, nonono, don't worry you won't catch me advocating for less than ~25 levels of a main offensive caster for that exact reason, and you do bring up a valid point. 20/10 casters are an awful, awful idea. You need CL for durations and for SR checks. But the difference between 27 CL and 30 CL is too small to give up on +12 AC, discipline, UMD, a feat, extra regen.... or any number of other things. 3 CL and Eschew Components does not make up that difference. You'd see me advocating for 28 or 29 CL if we could split that difference, but arelith's 3 level minimum investment does put a damper on that sort of scandalous behavior, so I'll leave that there.

[DeepWebAssassin]

Regarding Hemomancer:

So I've recently played a hemomancer build to 30 and wanted to add my insight to this.

Massacre - I also don't use Massacre, or even have it on a quickslot. It occupies this single-target-execution-plus-group-debuff role and I like that in theory, but I'd almost always rather spend my blood stacks on a max stack Soul Shriek or max Red Harvest focus replenish. The group debuff is nice, but the AoE high damage from soul shriek is almost always a smarter choice.

Red Harvest - I'm not sure why people make a big deal out of using this on summons. Anyone with heal kits can just use it on themselves just as easily. In fact, I played my Hemomancer to 30 solo and never summoned anything or hired any followers. I just harvested myself and healed it right back between encounters. I also don't really have trouble landing this ability on enemies at high levels once I got some practice with it. I was at RDI yesterday and after the first group or so I'd figured out that once I get enemies to near death, I need to throw another ice dagger or chain lightning to then finish them with Harvest very reliably. After that, it wasn't so bad. I worry adding an execute component here would actually make it too powerful considering the temp HP you could create for yourself. Besides, you get a decent chunk of focus back even if you don't kill them.

Which leads me to my next point -- I think the temp HP should maybe have a lower cap (like 50 or 75) or have a decay to it where the extra hp drains away over time. The class already gets more HP per level than a sorc or a wiz, and there's no reason you're not going to have con gear/buffs. Red Harvest as it stands can get you to 600 when you factor in temp HP, on a character with 16 base con and no toughness feat. The only disclaimer there is that it's not likely someone is going to actually be standing around at this hp during RP because it goes away on rest and would require you to run out to an are with enemies (or I guess publically summon and drain your summon), build up 10 blood stacks, hit enemies with probably more than 1 max red harvest, then get 10 MORE blood stacks to idle around with -- all every single time you rest. While possible, it takes a special kind of person to be that much of a tryhard and that's probably punishment enough in itself.

My only other feedback on Red Harvest is that maybe it's too spammable. A cooldown of like 30 seconds might be closer to what I'd set it at. 18 seconds is low enough that you can be at 0 focus, hit something with it, and have it ready to go again by the time you burn the focus out. It basically makes it impossible to run out of magic as long as you're able to keep casting this. Don't get me wrong -- being able to keep the spells flying is 95% of what I love about this class. But I think 24 or 30 seconds as a cooldown would go a long way toward making people a little smarter about what they're spamming.

RE: Leveling Experience - I found the low levels (like sub-15) to be pretty rough, the class really takes off once you hit mastery 3 and can alternate chain lightning + dark bolt a lot easier. But there's nothing that I think needs to be done about that -- it's just the experience of being a low level offensive caster and I don't really have an issue with it. I did all my writs solo and managed not to die at all, with some close calls. Also at any point, partying up with even 1 other person to hold the aggro would have made this WAY easier. I also solo'd a blaster warlock to 30 recently and this felt very similar (just with lower AC, and less social stigma). The hardest point for me was probably Forest of Despair, because the Malar Panthers have 20-ish base reflex and imp evasion and all the spells I was using at the time had reflex saves. I ran a lot of circles that day but managed to get through it. Having darkness and UV really works wonders from level 3 to level 30.

The summon undead line being a bone to throw (haha) for necromancers would be thematic and nice, especially considering they're already taking the suboptimal path compared to evo.

Regarding Eschew Components:

This is more like a QoL chip for people who insist on going 30, rather than something the dev did to try and convince you to take 30 levels. Consider this: If Invoker didn't get it at all, would anyone be upset for the lack of a level 28+ capstone? Probably not -- they'd just be building it with a dip for the many reasons already listed. Just let the pure classers have their consolation prize lol.

[Eyeliner]

This is more like a QoL chip for people who insist on going 30, rather than something the dev did to try and convince you to take 30 levels. Consider this: If Invoker didn't get it at all, would anyone be upset for the lack of a level 28+ capstone? Probably not -- they'd just be building it with a dip for the many reasons already listed. Just let the pure classers have their consolation prize lol.

Yeah I agree, I don't think you're necessarily a "rube" (ugh) if you go that route-- if you're not going to be a PVP-heavy character it's a nice QoL thing that might be worth it to some players. I wish all the arcane classes had this option, I'd take it occasionally (but wouldn't on anyone who might make a lot of enemies).

[AskRyze]

Red Harvest - I think the temp HP should maybe have a lower cap (like 50 or 75) or have a decay to it where the extra hp drains away over time.

My only other feedback on Red Harvest is that maybe it's too spammable. A cooldown of like 30 seconds might be closer to what I'd set it at.

I'm inclined to agree to these points, but I still want it to do a little bit more in exchange. I agree though, getting absurd HP pools with Hemomancer is a bit excessive and could serve being tuned down.

RE: Leveling Experience - I found the low levels (like sub-15) to be pretty rough, the class really takes off once you hit mastery 3 and can alternate chain lightning + dark bolt a lot easier. But there's nothing that I think needs to be done about that -- it's just the experience of being a low level offensive caster and I don't really have an issue with it. I did all my writs solo and managed not to die at all, with some close calls. Also at any point, partying up with even 1 other person to hold the aggro would have made this WAY easier. I also solo'd a blaster warlock to 30 recently and this felt very similar (just with lower AC, and less social stigma). The hardest point for me was probably Forest of Despair, because the Malar Panthers have 20-ish base reflex and imp evasion and all the spells I was using at the time had reflex saves. I ran a lot of circles that day but managed to get through it. Having darkness and UV really works wonders from level 3 to level 30.

The summon undead line being a bone to throw (haha) for necromancers would be thematic and nice, especially considering they're already taking the suboptimal path compared to evo.

Oh I'm with you 100% there. Party play makes Hemo really a solid pick, and when I played Elementalist in a party that could draw aggro off me I legitimately felt high at how powerful it was at low-mid levels. Hemo does have one leg up, having Darkness+UV, and that is something to its credit. But I play at odd times and don't often get the chance to party, so that may color my experience. Overall I don't think it's that bad, but could be smoothed over.

This is more like a QoL chip for people who insist on going 30, rather than something the dev did to try and convince you to take 30 levels. Consider this: If Invoker didn't get it at all, would anyone be upset for the lack of a level 28+ capstone? Probably not -- they'd just be building it with a dip for the many reasons already listed. Just let the pure classers have their consolation prize lol.

Yeah I agree, I don't think you're necessarily a "rube" (ugh) if you go that route-- if you're not going to be a PVP-heavy character it's a nice QoL thing that might be worth it to some players. I wish all the arcane classes had this option, I'd take it occasionally (but wouldn't on anyone who might make a lot of enemies).

Hm. You know what, you've won me over on that part. If I look at it as a 'consolation prize', I suppose it feels a lot more reasonable. Thank you for the shift in perspective, both of you!

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

Lvl 30 fantasy is something some people.will do even without cookies. The cookies are for them.

And for me when I cross class discipline on earth attuned and ESF discipline and gear up to 65 discipline on a lvl 30 elementalist. Prob the most viable pure lvl caster with no discipline class skill minus druid.

You're welcome.

[Amnesy]

Just a soft reminder I might be not in the middle of the discussion but I am reading and taking notes from every feedback thread.
I am also aware of a couple of sizeable reviews being in the writing/preparation I am waiting for - which is the reason I am quiet for the time being.

Cheers and thanks for sharing constructive points,