Death, Corpses, and Verisimilitude

[Ork]

People can learn of the conflict by reading the news, overhearing conversations, seeing well-played RP tensions developing. These are all interesting and player-unique ways of learning about what has happened.

I'm not saying those aren't great ways to learn more, but they're a lot less public than a pile of bones that persist over server reset. I'd also not want the name removed solely because unidentifiable remains tell you even less. I hear that concern for player humiliation, but that feeling of humiliation only comes from players that haven't divorced themselves from their characters - and server policy, in my opinion, shouldn't cater to those people. They should be coached on how to better balance their relationships with their own characters.

Mangled corpse with search/spot/ect checks to discover features about it would be neater. Like the tracks system.

I'd love this.

[LichBait]

Mangled corpse with search/spot/ect checks to discover features about it would be neater. Like the tracks system.

[Morgy]

People can learn of the conflict by reading the news, overhearing conversations, seeing well-played RP tensions developing. These are all interesting and player-unique ways of learning about what has happened.

I hear that concern for player humiliation, but that feeling of humiliation only comes from players that haven't divorced themselves from their characters - and server policy, in my opinion, shouldn't cater to those people. They should be coached on how to better balance their relationships with their own characters.

Whilst this is a small concern, my main concern is just it's more jarring no one can actually do anything about these completely mangled remains, yet apparently everyone can also recognise them. As guard, when you keep getting questioned why the city is allowing corpses to rot in the street.. what do you say to that? You could say it's being investigated.. but are you going to stand by the corpse 'til a reset? You could also argue the PC complaining is being a bit unfair, knowing ooc you can't do anything.. but actually, the reason you can't do something is silly, not the point they are making.

I agree there should be signs of loss and people shouldn't have 100% freedom to deny they ever lost a battle, because of no evidence.. and I actually think the 'tracks' idea by Lichbait is a good one for crime scenes/evidence of battle.

There's definitely room for improvement on this mechanic.. maybe even 'rotting' timer for the corpse which could either be from animals eating it in the wild or 'city services' cleaning it up? Just extra ideas.

[Ork]

I'll answer the hypothetical: guard ("police") tape. Cordon off the area for passersby, station a guard there to make people not interfere - and if no one's on, recognize that a character questioning the guard isn't an affront of the guards' reputation but a genuine attempt for the questioner to participate in roleplay. It's all gravy!

If you know you can't ooc do something, I've always found it powerful to rationalize a reason. Say your character wants to go home to Amn but you know you can't actually do that with the character and remain on the server - rationalize a roleplay reason why it is the way it is. What's boring is ignore the situation because it's unresolvable.

When new classes are pushed out, or nerfs occur or new settlements sprout out over night it's our job to make what is seemingly impossible become conceivable through roleplay.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

Party at the Forest has a good point though - that said I find it a slightly interesting moral/philosophical question - what's the actual differncer between 'bounty hunters' and 'assassins?' Other than one wearing black more and in a stylish manner . Why is 'hiring bounty hunters to kill Bob the necromancer' = good. But 'Hiring assassins to kill Bob the Necromancer = bad?'

I'm not putting this forth as a point to defend my own idea I hasten to add, it's just a sorta... wierd thing when you think about it.

Bounty hunting is often state-sponsored against criminals, and isn't always about killing someone. The award is often higher to bring someone in alive. In-game it's often very public, messages are hung up on message boards, and a name is tied to the person issuing the bounty. Assassins are closed door shady deals where the only thing that matters is the target dies.

The assassin system also has a lot of shortcomings. It's too anonymous. I get why, you absolutely have to protect the identity of the assassins, people are really awful about gatekeeping if they find out someone's an assassin. But there's no way to know if there's any active assassins right now, or if the bounty is going to time out and the money is going down the drain. At the very least with the old system, there was a consolation prize of a message going out to the victim so they knew someone put a hit on them, it was good for sending a message. I'd hate seeing everything tied to an application gated system that doesn't even give you the satisfaction of knowing if anything came of the hit.

[Morgy]

I'll answer the hypothetical: guard ("police") tape. Cordon off the area for passersby, station a guard there to make people not interfere - and if no one's on, recognize that a character questioning the guard isn't an affront of the guards' reputation but a genuine attempt for the questioner to participate in roleplay. It's all gravy!

This is an idea I've been toying with and something I will likely do from now on. Though, to be honest, the answer to both our sides on this is 'be creative'.. whether that be how you deal with a semi-permanent remains, or how you 'prove' someone died nearby without them.. which is an important point. On the whole however, I still feel the mechanic should be updated significantly.

Hopefully some of these ideas for improvement will make it into the game!

[Ork]

I'm down for change honestly, and I think at the base of it we're going to agree that anything that provides more roleplay is a great plan - I think what Lichbait mentions, and I know I've heard it before about a more nuanced way to interact with corpses in general, would be really cool to have. More tools in the hands of the players!

Also interesting might be a "speak with the dead" kind of spell to add spellcasters into the mix. Being able to ask the spirit (divorced of the actual character) rudimentary questions similar to -investigate might let us finally live out our Harry Dresden fantasies & might finally validate necromancers inside the city practicing questionable but not objectionable trade.

[-XXX-]

I hear that concern for player humiliation, but that feeling of humiliation only comes from players that haven't divorced themselves from their characters - and server policy, in my opinion, shouldn't cater to those people. They should be coached on how to better balance their relationships with their own characters.

Good point.
Could the following statement be valid as well?

The need for tracking score (PC head collectibles) and flaunting achievments (unbashable remains) comes from players that haven't divorced themselves from their characters - and server policy, in my opinion, shouldn't cater to those people.

[Eyeliner]

I hear that concern for player humiliation, but that feeling of humiliation only comes from players that haven't divorced themselves from their characters - and server policy, in my opinion, shouldn't cater to those people. They should be coached on how to better balance their relationships with their own characters.

Good point.
Could the following statement be valid as well?

The need for tracking score (PC head collectibles) and flaunting achievments (unbashable remains) comes from players that haven't divorced themselves from their characters - and server policy, in my opinion, shouldn't cater to those people.

Yeah exactly. I see a lot more people being poor winners than poor losers.

[MRFTW]

I see a lot more people being poor winners than poor losers.

I'd been wanting to make this observation myself.

[AstralUniverse]

I hear that concern for player humiliation, but that feeling of humiliation only comes from players that haven't divorced themselves from their characters - and server policy, in my opinion, shouldn't cater to those people. They should be coached on how to better balance their relationships with their own characters.

Good point.
Could the following statement be valid as well?

The need for tracking score (PC head collectibles) and flaunting achievments (unbashable remains) comes from players that haven't divorced themselves from their characters - and server policy, in my opinion, shouldn't cater to those people.

I would say your example is hyperbolic but honestly it's less than hyperbole, it's not even relevant at all. The character in game is *in fact* alive when they are bragging *in character* about their trophy and I fail to see how that's poor rp or a fail to differentiate a player from a character.

[Sincra]

Mangled corpse with search/spot/ect checks to discover features about it would be neater. Like the tracks system.

Stealing this for phase 3.

[LichBait]

Mangled corpse with search/spot/ect checks to discover features about it would be neater. Like the tracks system.

Stealing this for phase 3.

BLESS!

[Ork]

I hear that concern for player humiliation, but that feeling of humiliation only comes from players that haven't divorced themselves from their characters - and server policy, in my opinion, shouldn't cater to those people. They should be coached on how to better balance their relationships with their own characters.

Good point.
Could the following statement be valid as well?

The need for tracking score (PC head collectibles) and flaunting achievments (unbashable remains) comes from players that haven't divorced themselves from their characters - and server policy, in my opinion, shouldn't cater to those people.

I don't really know why you're always trying to be a contrarian to my posts, but if you're seeking a response - no. Humiliation is an emotional response as a player felt out of character for an event that happened to their character and collecting trophies is an in-character response to an in-character event.

Now, if I met a player that said OOC "I need that guys skull to put them in their place", I'd be quick to rebuke. They're acting on an OOC desire divorced from their characters in-game motivations. It's also pretty disgusting to want to act out an OOC grudge in game. I believe individuals that do that deserve a permanent ban.

But, honestly I think I've been pretty consistent in advocating for players to hold themselves to a higher standard. If you win, be gracious and make that roleplay inclusive and collaborative. If you lose, be complicit in roleplaying the ramifications of that loss through your character's actions and dialog. EVEN IF YOU WIN OR LOSE and get greentext spammed by your adversary, you've a responsibility to roleplay those events to the best of your ability. Why? Because it's more fun that way. Rolling with the punches and making a story out of even these inconveniences is a lot more fun than posting angrily to your subscribed echo-chamber on discord.

[-XXX-]

I don't really know why you're always trying to be a contrarian to my posts

Don't take it personally. We just seem to often have different opinions on various aspects of the game, that's all.

Now, if I met a player that said OOC "I need that guys skull to put them in their place", I'd be quick to rebuke. They're acting on an OOC desire divorced from their characters in-game motivations. It's also pretty disgusting to want to act out an OOC grudge in game. I believe individuals that do that deserve a permanent ban.

It doesn't necessarily need to be that personal or spiteful. Bartle tells us that there's a player type who likes to mess with other players - it's just what floats their boat and why they play multiplayer games in the first place.
My point was that just because these players can often manage to pass their gratification (which is an emotional response as well) for IC actions, doesn't mean that it's not a case of self-insert writing as well.

Now, we have sore losers and poor winners. I think that we could all agree that both are bad. However, the way some of the game mechanics are currently implemented enables poor winners and does not give them any incentive to push themselves to higher standards.
When I go through this thread and similar threads in the past, I recognize attempts to outline this issue and challenge whether it should remain to be the case.

[Ork]

Mechanics can never do what you seek unless you're advocating for permission-based conflict. It has to come from the individual and perhaps coaching from the DMs.

I love messing with other players, but I'd be careful defining "messing" as bad. Instances of conflict and conflict associated characters are a net good for the server.

[Alyxnia]

The need for tracking score (PC head collectibles) and flaunting achievments (unbashable remains) comes from players that haven't divorced themselves from their characters - and server policy, in my opinion, shouldn't cater to those people.

This is largely how I feel about it. And let's remember that my OP wasn't "Do we or don't we need X Y Z system to prove you owned someone in PVP". It was about unremovable corpse remains breaking immersion and being used very often as a way to further rub someones nose in the fact that they lost PVP. As well as the fact that being able to cut someones head off and hand it to them does far more to damage respect for death in the server than respawning after you get owned in PVP.

[riffraff]

A lot of posts are coming at it like there are only 2 sides, but there is a crucial 3rd - the bystander. If all that remains of a conflict is an item, how will the bystanders learn and become involved in these conflicts? A lot of roleplay is passive requiring players to find hooks to buy into a story.

I gave my perspective as a bystander and the other bystanders I saw ignoring the corpse in the street. I don't think anyone has argued there should be nothing left behind at all, just that corpses are really hard to take seriously IC when in some scenarios (i.e. the middle of the city square in Cordor, a settlement with a plentiful guard who have good reason not to let corpses fester) there's no IC reason why they'd be left there to stink up the place and freak out every bystander who wanders in to check the notice board.

What are you supposed to do in the situation where there's a corpse on the ground, there are around 10 other people in the area who have already RPed around it being there to death (pun intended) and are bored with the concept and just want to get back to their own thing, but you're the rando who stumbled in to see the ignored corpse? It's hard to incorporate it into your story when it feels like you're just hallucinating a dead body. That's what I went with, my character quietly assuming she was losing it before backing out of there. I'm sure the guards don't need the fiftieth person coming along shouting "Oh my gods, a CORPSE!"

Finding things out by overhearing them is certainly possible. I've heard about a fair few PVP conflicts just being a fly on the wall passing from place to place in my short time here. Out of my own curiosity I've even tracked down a guilty party and eavesdropped on their side of things. I'm not saying it should only be doable via hearing other characters talk about things, but it certainly is doable, even for a clueless newbie like myself! People do love to gossip.

But there were a fair few alternative suggestions to corpses already (and now more since) that would still mark that a death had occurred, without being quite so bizarre from an IC standpoint. Being able to investigate it yourself is absolutely awesome and should be kept/be a thing, by examining remnants of the battle or what have you. As someone who has been adoring staring at footprints in the mud for many days now, I do also think something similar to the tracking system is a really great idea.

[Hazard]

Your character can just hold their head dramatically, home-alone style, each time they walk by the remains permanently embedded into the cobblestones.

[-XXX-]

^That's some 40 RPR material right there.

[Mattamue]

If/when spot comes into it I think it should also track of the body has been moved. Dropping a corpse in the hub and then bashing it is a particularly purposeful thing I don't think has been touched on yet.

[Amateur Hour]

Perhaps a controversial alternative: make the skeletons bashable, but make blood pools from PvP kills unscrubbable. As any of us who have watched a crime drama could tell you, cleaning up blood completely is shockingly hard.

[AstralUniverse]

Perhaps a controversial alternative: make the skeletons bashable, but make blood pools from PvP kills unscrubbable. As any of us who have watched a crime drama could tell you, cleaning up blood completely is shockingly hard.

This is very true. Or as Maximus the Gladiator said "it's easier to wash your hands off mud than blood". However the problem is that now you need to take the character name off the remains because it's indistinguishable from any random blood stain and I personally dont like that. Remains should stay, with character name on them, because death in pvp should be something that's really hard/impossible to shrug off and go about your day as the defeated side and having a pile of remains with your name on it somewhere until server reset has always been a crucial part of it, imo.

[Hazard]

Perhaps a controversial alternative: make the skeletons bashable, but make blood pools from PvP kills unscrubbable. As any of us who have watched a crime drama could tell you, cleaning up blood completely is shockingly hard.

This is very true. Or as Maximus the Gladiator said "it's easier to wash your hands off mud than blood". However the problem is that now you need to take the character name off the remains because it's indistinguishable from any random blood stain and I personally dont like that. Remains should stay, with character name on them, because death in pvp should be something that's really hard/impossible to shrug off and go about your day as the defeated side and having a pile of remains with your name on it somewhere until server reset has always been a crucial part of it, imo.

I agree with pvp death being something that should be impossible to just shrug off and ignore, but I don't think remains should be that thing anymore. It sort of relies entirely on the death either happening in a very public space (Cordor/The Hub) or the body being taken there to be bashed. Neither are behaviours I think we should encourage, going forward. It's understandable someone would do this, especially to a foe who has a habit of ignoring defeats .. but I'd like to see something better one day.

[AstralUniverse]

It sort of relies entirely on the death either happening in a very public space (Cordor/The Hub) or the body being taken there to be bashed.

Good point. Maybe we should just disable the option to do the latter intentionally, because it is sort of meta-gaming. No one would do that if it wasnt for the fact the remains are indestructible, so I think it's a bit meta, if not a lot. But in the first case I actually think it's fine and even encourages people to take a risk and fighting their enemies in public when it's more inclusive.