Exotic Characters

[God_In_Action]

Is it possible to improve visual immersion by making exotic characters seem rarer by making use of NPCs? Could we have randomly generated NPC characters of city-suitable races which randomly walk through settlements, making the settlement seem busier with non-exotic races? A bit like how open world RPGs make their cities seem busy.

[chris a gogo]

More npc's cause more lag, plus constantly walking into them or having them randomly stand in the middle of your conversation gets seriously annoying.

[The GrumpyCat]

I mean, we kinda have an answer to this problem already - and it's one that is going to be worked on in the current months, but you're all going to have to be a bit more patient.

The award system exists for three reasons
a) to enable people to play fun, sparkly concepts they usually wouldn't be able to
b) to keep these concept rare
c) to encourage people to delete characters.

Point a) and c) are certainly working. In fact, at least with point c) I'd argue they're working far too well.

But this system was concieved of and updated in days when it took the average player about six months to level to 27. Now it takes the average player around a month, often less.

That means, quite simply, that there are more awards avaiable, and its easier to play a 'special' race.

The answer then is to
a) detatch the level = award meta. - because going off this purely encourages people to grind to 27 in a couple of weeks and then roll.
b) Get rid of the RNG generator
c) Make awards, especially major + greater more difficult to achieve (but still possible for pretty much ALL players)
d) Add a selection of new awards that are not racially based, but are still cool and tempting (esp at lower 'tiers') for people to take as well.


And again - these races are a bit common right now as a lot of people have lunged into them, finally seeing something they want to play and are trying them out. I do expect numbers to probably go down a bit over the next few months.

[jinrohbrigade]

I hope that as the new reward system gets closer to completion the team asks for potential non-race reward suggestions from the community.

Both from having a larger pool to pull ideas from as well as seeing the likely popularity of them. I'm not says devs then have to follow through with that but I think it would at least be useful data.

I personally like the racial options but most of my rewards over the years have been spent on the handful of non-racial reward options. In my ideal world there would be an even split between exotic races and non-racial rewards.

[Liareth]

It makes more sense to compare percentages because other players are who we really notice and interact with day in and day out. Comparing only against other PCs, how many are special? Based off Spyre's recent population census (viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5956&start=25), it looks between 5-10% of PCs, depending on the method you use to classify a PC as special.

Firstly, 5% of the PC is not really comparable to 1% of NPCs, because player characters are more special than non-player characters is practically a given. The percentage of player characters able to cast ninth level arcane or divine spells is undoubtedly higher than that of the npc population, for instance. It makes little sense that the same is not valid for special races.

That is true when we look at ability, but not race. We should expect to see those ninth level casters distributed equally amongst people of all races - for example if we say that 0.1% of people are born with the drive to be an adventurer, then we'd expect 0.1% of humans, 0.1% of elves, 0.1% of others, etc. Of course this is discounting social factors that might lead to some races leaning away from that sort of thing - for example, maybe humans would be more likely to become adventurers, while hobbits (as a quick example that popped into my mind from LOTR) would be less likely. It's also discounting racial factors that are undoubtedly a part of the setting - for example, sun elves have a racial bonus to int, so we might expect to see a higher percentage of sun elves turn into successful wizards. If we include social factors then I would expect most races that display outwardly monstrous attributes, like wings, a tail, their literal body in the case of a giant, etc., to keep to themselves for reasons of safety and therefore have a lower representation in any given sample of adventurers who might spend time in a city.

This is a minor point either way though, because my concern isn't so much about the difference in distribution between the population of an average city and the adventurers who spend time there, given the fact that adventurers, by trade, roam from city to city anyway. My concern is that there are so many of them relative to the count of PCs on the server, combined with the fact that most PCs treat them as normal because of how common they are. I don't think "make an IC law" is the answer to this problem, because if it was then there would be no problem in the first place. Topics that edge towards racial discrimination are often difficult to broach, even IC. Players are inherently inclusive. These modern, inclusive, (and really lovely) mindsets often slip into IC interactions despite our best wishes, the most extreme example being "don't be racist to the tiefling, they're a person too!". For these reasons I think enforcement of the setting's integrity should be a developer or DM concern, not a player one.

[Preserver]

This is a complex topic that goes far beyond what can be easily summarized in one post without keeping track of the entirety of Arelith's history (the most of which I was not a part of). However, I would argue the following.

1) Though it is true that most great settlements in the Realms are by a vast majority inhabited by what we can call the "standard" races, I do not believe that, on the player side, Arelith was ever being "sold" as a normalcy and standard-level demographics simulator.
This is partially a no-brainer of course but: the content is tailored to the adventuring-type (writs, dungeons, killing monsters, etcetera...) constituting a small amount of the Realms' population, and a group that is narratively tailored (by design, I would argue) to be made of oddballs, outliers, weird ones. As hard as it can be on the player perception of the server's environment, I believe we should all be reminded that if we see them weird 8-12 giantkin walking the streets of Cordor, that is still a moderate-to-minor percentage of the actual population of Cordor, which is not constituted by the PCs, but by the numerous (and most of the time unseen) NPCs.
I understand that it can feel weird to those looking for a less high fantasy environment but, to summarize the thought: unless they roll Commoner, PCs are extraordinary individuals and often adventurers; adventurers are a small portion of the population, and already a group that caters to unusual individuals; the fact that several giantkin (because this is Giant Week, but it can work for a lot of other things) appear needs to be, in my opinion, taken in consideration as part of the adventuring sub-society and not in relation with general demographics.

1a) The adventuring Elf/Human/Dwarf/Gnome is often distinct from the standard Elf/Human/Dwarf/Gnome, and as long as this is enforced by mechanics, it should also be placidly accepted and respected in the RP. If someone rolls a CE Elf that worships Sebek (cool crocodile Mulhorandi God) and refuses the Seldarine (which is, in fact, quite an odd Elf in the Realms) well... that happened: and it is a perfectly valid choice for as long as it is not mechanically denied. Same for the 10 successive people that all roll Giantkin (an event for which there usually IS a mechanical response, which is to increase the award level, or to temporarily disallow the award).

2) I agree with the sentiment that interesting awards that are not subraces or odd races should be introduced at some point in the future. Narrative awards are extremely interesting I believe: things that would appear only by way of RP or by reading one's description. All with the understanding that given Arelith has an established list of "base races" and an established list of what can be RPd without any award, every single award race/narrative bonus/thing will always constitute an oddity within the already odd adventuring population.

3) I believe it must be accepted that not only the Arelith of today is distinctly high fantasy (for a number of reasons the virtue of which may be discussed elsewhere), but that arguing for strict adherence to Forgotten Realms' Lore can be a bit futile. The setting that we play in is already distinct from standard Forgotten Realms, it has its own history and specific way of responding to societal, historical, and everyday facts based on its own past. It is, in my opinion, a branching bit of Forgotten Realms setting that has taken its own path. With that I am not saying we should depart from the lore completely, but just accept the fact that divergence is not an issue, but a feature.

TLDR: PCs/adventurers are weird because that is the fantasy for most; weird character choices are encouraged/not encouraged based primarily on mechanical limitations (which represent the server's intention towards the type of RP desired); non-race awards would be fun; Arelith is already distinct enough from standard FR that strict adherence to the lore seems to go against its design.

[Shadowy Reality]

Why is it that we keep certain races (looking at Vampire and Rakshasa's) limited but others not so much? Gloamings and Fey'ri are probably as exotic as the former two.

I get it that numbers are closely monitored but sometimes things get noticed too late as when Firbolgs were made Greater.
I also get it that we can't have all special races be limited by application process as it would be too much work. I feel a better approach would be to limit the number of active characters of exotic races, imaginary numbers: 3 vampires, 2 rakshasas, 20 tieflings, 5 gloamings, etc.

People with the appropriate award can send in a request to play one (done via forums or ingame). When the next spot for the race opens a player is randomly selected to play it.

While it is not great to really want to play something, having the award and not being able to but I do feel setting integrity should not go out the window to cater to everyone's wishes.

And I will echo what others have said: non-race awards would make us go a long way! I would take a special weapon vfx for a greater award, some might take starting with a keen masterly damask for a major, or some other character appearance things with minimal impact to the lore of the setting.

[Halibutthead]

I feel like limitting numbers like that sounds good, because logically, there are fewer and that makes them more exotic, but! But.. i think the numbers only tell part of the story. I think most of us would rather have a full flock of well played gloamings operating as a gang in cordor than 5 active ones across the server, no more than 3 of which are actively played, who do very little with them.

And that's a lot harder to quantify.

[Hazard]

Why is it that we keep certain races (looking at Vampire and Rakshasa's) limited but others not so much? Gloamings and Fey'ri are probably as exotic as the former two.

I get it that numbers are closely monitored but sometimes things get noticed too late as when Firbolgs were made Greater.
I also get it that we can't have all special races be limited by application process as it would be too much work. I feel a better approach would be to limit the number of active characters of exotic races, imaginary numbers: 3 vampires, 2 rakshasas, 20 tieflings, 5 gloamings, etc.

People with the appropriate award can send in a request to play one (done via forums or ingame). When the next spot for the race opens a player is randomly selected to play it.

While it is not great to really want to play something, having the award and not being able to but I do feel setting integrity should not go out the window to cater to everyone's wishes.

And I will echo what others have said: non-race awards would make us go a long way! I would take a special weapon vfx for a greater award, some might take starting with a keen masterly damask for a major, or some other character appearance things with minimal impact to the lore of the setting.

I think there is extra difficulty in playing something as alien as an immortal being, living or undead. They may not be as rare as other choices, but they're far more alien (or should be). A gloaming, a fey'ri, tieflings, giantkin .. These are all "normal" (not really) people, relatable to most humans in plenty of ways.

A fiend or an undead or a fey or something, less so, and that's just what I assume is the reason behind some of them being harder to get.

Personally, I know I can get pretty tired playing such a race. It is a lot, and takes effort to maintain the mindset while still involving others and making it fun for them and not just yourself. I actually feel playing those races takes quite a bit of commitment and focus if you want to do it 'seriously'.

[Hazard]

My only concern is seeing mechanical power creep into rewards. I do not want to see things like -teleport, or something as choices because I feel like it would just be more powercreep, and rewards shouldn't just be straight upgrades to normal characters.

The reason noble award is one of my favourite rewards is because it is only a minor, but opens up so many possibilities, and on top of that it encourages playing a 'normal'/plain race because you cannot have a reward race AND nobility reward.

Buffing nobility could be a simple way to encourage less exotics too.
Or having other similar rewards.

[AstralUniverse]

I feel like it would just be more powercreep, and rewards shouldn't just be straight upgrades to normal characters.

I mean... I agree with you. A lot even. I really wish there was incentive to spend award on something that is both not a mechanical upgrade and also isnt Zoo. But it's a double edged sword. On one hand we want to keep exotic things exotic so we want to introduce awards which arent exotic IC, but without shoving some mechanical value into them, and without them having a sexy pair of wings, I really dont see why people would take them. The incentive to spend an award on something like being a better merchant or soldier or have a special weapon should be in it's mechanical boons because it's certainly not in it's frankly mundane theme that can be played without any award (which is partially the intention to begin with, if we go this way).

[Eyeliner]

I'd love to able to spend a greater award to play a standard race with human base stats (all 8s, no + or -). Always wanted a Duergar warlock for instance but not going to fight that -4 cha to do it.

[Ithalan]

It'd be neat also if there were awards available that could be picked after character creation on a character that doesn't have one already, to cover those cases where a player's primary long-term character is still their first one.

[Wrips]

Ha, I didn't get that from any discord nor am I really sure which server i would even find that discussion on. A number of the tweaks on Arelith have the effect of making both feats and skillpoints more valuable than other places. As an example, lower/standardized magic means no immunity to kd items and no items with a high buff to discipline. Now a good melee build needs to have esf discipline, costing an extra feat. Change scrolls to lore, climb, ride, sail, high umd gatekeeping, all adds up to skill points being more dear and valuable despite getting the extra 2. These are just examples, you can probably think of some too.

Keen senses alone >> human bonus

Is this true?
Can you tell me why, and word it in such a way that even a potato brain could understand?
Genuinely curious.

Keen sense
How detection works in NWN

Basically, keen sense allow you keep your full spot/listen check while running around during combat, while characters with no keen sense have their detection skills halved unless they stand still or are in detect mode, which significatly reduces your speed and, of course, the usefulness of a steep investment people usually make in detection. For example, an elf with 90 Spot will keep that 90 Spot while running (there are other modifiers like being in combat or having Darkvision at night, but they aren't as important) - always, but a human with 90 spot will have their spot halved to 45, unless they activate detect mode or are standing still. Stealth is one of the strongest features of the game (both defensive and offensive) and, naturally, the ability to counter it is almost equally as good.

In comparison, most characters these days will get at least 4+int mod skill points per level. Usually 6, considering the changes, which covers six skills. You may want to have discipline, tumble, lore, spellcraft, spot and you still have a full skill free to allocate where you want. Also note that is the most skill starved class available (4+int). The more skillpoints you have, the less valuable extra skill points become.

Likewise, an extra pre epic feat is decent but it's usually Thoughness, Improved Knockdown or a crafting feat, most of the time. Convenient but nothing really super important.

[Hazard]

Keen senses alone >> human bonus

Is this true?
Can you tell me why, and word it in such a way that even a potato brain could understand?
Genuinely curious.

Keen sense
How detection works in NWN

Basically, keen sense allow you keep your full spot/listen check while running around during combat, while characters with no keen sense have their detection skills halved unless they stand still or are in detect mode, which significatly reduces your speed and, of course, the usefulness of a steep investment people usually make in detection. For example, an elf with 90 Spot will keep that 90 Spot while running (there are other modifiers like being in combat or having Darkvision at night, but they aren't as important) - always, but a human with 90 spot will have their spot halved to 45, unless they activate detect mode or are standing still. Stealth is one of the strongest features of the game (both defensive and offensive) and, naturally, the ability to counter it is almost equally as good.

In comparison, most characters these days will get at least 4+int mod skill points per level. Usually 6, considering the changes, which covers six skills. You may want to have discipline, tumble, lore, spellcraft, spot and you still have a full skill free to allocate where you want. Also note that is the most skill starved class available (4+int). The more skillpoints you have, the less valuable extra skill points become.

Likewise, an extra pre epic feat is decent but it's usually Thoughness, Improved Knockdown or a crafting feat, most of the time. Convenient but nothing really super important.

Wow. Thanks for that!
That does sound 'really' good!

[Yensent]

Personally I would like to see more distrust from PCs and NPCs on races such as Kenku and Tiefling.
They have reputations that make them untrustworthy, which sometimes is not fairly associated!

Reputations for Kenku are usually, will rob you, stab you in the back for anything shiny. They usually live on the outskirts of human settlements:

They tended to be selfish and secretive in nature and were often engaged in plots to acquire wealth and power. They operated in small gangs and often lived in large human cities,

I have seen a lot of "Your welcome here" or "Your banned from this city"
But I hardly see players doing the side glances, untrusted views, or being uneasy around odd or sometimes infamous creatures.

Been playing my Kenku for a while now(outcast) and I can say, I’ve only had a few PCs mistrust me. Likely this is due to the outcast status-everyone in Andunor has a baseline distrust of one another. My few encounters with surfacers have been brief, but in two separate occasions I had a dwarf, and an elf comment on and give me good rp on their distrust. I think given time, it will get better, but I do think that people find Kenku kind of cute and therefore give them more of a pass then they should.