Pickpocket rule change

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

At first I was like "unnecessarily in favour of the pickpocketer."

Now I think we can work with it and make a further change:

Remove notification for the person committing the pickpocket that they been spotted. The spotter now must rp anyway before pvp them ao they can receive notification that way. Gives spotter better opening to create reaction rp which can include playing dumb and having a devious plot.

[Morgy]

At first I was like "unnecessarily in favour of the pickpocketer."

Now I think we can work with it and make a further change:

Remove notification for the person committing the pickpocket that they been spotted. The spotter now must rp anyway before pvp them ao they can receive notification that way. Gives spotter better opening to create reaction rp which can include playing dumb and having a devious plot.

^This.

Usually pickpockets run as soon at they get that notification, which if you can't respond immediately with magic or a knockdown, kind of makes it impossible to RP anyway.

[The GrumpyCat]

At first I was like "unnecessarily in favour of the pickpocketer."

Now I think we can work with it and make a further change:

Remove notification for the person committing the pickpocket that they been spotted. The spotter now must rp anyway before pvp them ao they can receive notification that way. Gives spotter better opening to create reaction rp which can include playing dumb and having a devious plot.

^This.

Usually pickpockets run as soon at they get that notification, which if you can't respond immediately with magic or a knockdown, kind of makes it impossible to RP anyway.

I'm trying to think if there's a good reason why such notifications are needed, but I don't /think/ there is? I can't think how someone could easily metagame that they know who did it. So yes... uh... at least in theory I think this is a good idea?

[godhand-]

EDIT - all of the below is meaningless - I misread the original announcement to say that RP is required before sleight of hand interaction.....
EDIT2 - I still think its good feedback.....

At first I was like "unnecessarily in favour of the pickpocketer."

Its certainly brought the balance of power way back into the realm of reasonable - previously people could pickpocket from stealth and run away without any chance of being caught. This is no longer a concern as RP is now required with the mark before you hit them.

this is a great change overall .... it is now enforcing roleplay interaction before pickpocketing a mark.... This is excellent, but Malcom makes a great point in that the notification messages and perhaps even the timer needs to be changed. The mark shouldn't recognize you're the thief while you're still rping with them. 30 seconds is just not enough time to get away organically through roleplay instead of having to cheese it.

Unless the timer has changed with the rule announcement, AFAIK its a 30 second timer from successful PP to target notification....
this made sense when people were pickpocketing from stealth etc.... but now. 30 seconds is not enough time to break off from roleplay.

Perhaps the timer duration could be attached to your pickpocket rank.... EG: each rank of pickpocket adds 1d3 seconds to the timer.
so an
amateur pickpocket with 20 ranks could get 30 + 20d3 (~70 seconds) added to the timer.
master pickpocket with 100 ranks could get 30 + 100d3 (~ 230 seconds) added to the timer.

Additionally, i believe the note should be changed to say something along the lines of
"You notice some missing belongings to the value of x"
Instead of the current :
"You have been pickpocketed for x value"

The difference is massive in terms of metagaming - many players would see the existing message and see that as proof they have been pickpocketed - and meta who did it, even though they did not in fact, catch the thief in the act. Its almost like clockwork, exactly 30 seconds after a successful pickpocket "HEY, YOU THIEF!"

[Waldo52]

Rogue type characters are inherently difficult to balance in a place like Arelith, but that's no excuse for how pitiful we are right now.

D&D was never designed around PvP, and rogues were supposed to have a niche with unlocking chests and dealing situational damage to orcs when bigger/stronger characters were around to protect them.

This paradigm breaks down in Arelith where little details become more relevant than they ever were in basement tabletop sessions: how powerful are you in a numbers based game? Do you have a real character sheet to contribute something serious or are we just grateful to have a fourth guy show up, with beer and pretzels no less?!

Pickpocketing without having to set to hostile first would have serious ramifications that Garry Gygax never intended. Sleight of hand gods with serious dedication could make unfathomable amounts of gold per day in a persistent world.

The same could be said about the rogue's combat ability. Boost their stealth skills, AB and general combat aptitude enough and evil rogues would be a serious threat in civilized areas, able to jump out and murder people and then vanish with impunity.

I think that what's happened on Arelith is a sad case of erring on the side of caution. Pickpockets and rogues are neutered to prevent excessive problems, and perpetually pushed to the back burner for reconsideration at some future date. The devs know we're in a terrible place and genuinely seem to want to help, but it's just not a priority.

More than any other character type, we're victims of the server rules. Despite being masters of stealth and deception, we're beholden to the same rules as anyone else regarding RP before PvP. Yes, there are ways around this like remaining in stealth while your ally fulfills the RP requirement and then jumping the guy, but even if you go for something so cowardly you need a willing ally just to do what your class is supposed to be good at, with a lousy character sheet compared to other classes attempting the same thing.

While I have extremely limited pickpocket experience, I understand that having to set others to hostile befote PP reveals you to the enemy. Even an RP purist who never spots the person IC and conscientiously gnores OOC notifications now has an onus to pretend he doesn't know who stole from him. This is a bit much.

Again, remember that this game is designed around a chasis of pickpocketing random NPCs and murdering DM controlled gnolls from stealth. Our pen and paper predecessors didn't have to worry about the same balance issues that keep us up at night. I know it's a tall order, I know it's a lot to think about, but rogues and thieves are in a terrible place right now.

I know we hear about a lot of whiney players throwing hissy fits when their build gets nerfed or what have you, but I'm struggling to stay invested in this game as a rogue. Let's recap the real bemefits of playing a rogue:

Pickpocket: Neutered, and I'd guess bards do it better.

Stealth: I'll bet bards do it better

Damage: SURPRISINGLY GOOD FOR A DEX CHARACTER! ACTUALLY DECENT!

(Don't worry, this is not usually applicable in PVP. Even with well placed trap or grenade, a competent build generally has the saves to negate this. Even if you have a buddy for the enemy to focus on, our AB is sad. Scoring a sneak attack independently is hard. PGCC it. Role play it. It's generally pathetic)

AC: Above average, and with epic dodge. But our HP is bad. Monks do this phenomenally better. The divine rogue equivalent has been nerfed, and is massively feat intensive.

Picking locks: Bards. Familiars.

UMD: Bards

Skill monkeying: Bards

Basically the only thing we have going for us is our number of skill points (even if bards have a superior skill list and can beat our numbers on any given skill) and crippling strike.

You were right to complain, things are terrible right now. Hopefully the dev team takes a hard look at pickpocketing and stealth based characters soon.

[Hazard]

Rogue type characters are inherently difficult to balance in a place like Arelith, but that's no excuse for how pitiful we are right now.

D&D was never designed around PvP, and rogues were supposed to have a niche with unlocking chests and dealing situational damage to orcs when bigger/stronger characters were around to protect them.

This paradigm breaks down in Arelith where little details become more relevant than they ever were in basement tabletop sessions: how powerful are you in a numbers based game? Do you have a real character sheet to contribute something serious or are we just grateful to have a fourth guy show up, with beer and pretzels no less?!

Pickpocketing without having to set to hostile first would have serious ramifications that Garry Gygax never intended. Sleight of hand gods with serious dedication could make unfathomable amounts of gold per day in a persistent world.

The same could be said about the rogue's combat ability. Boost their stealth skills, AB and general combat aptitude enough and evil rogues would be a serious threat in civilized areas, able to jump out and murder people and then vanish with impunity.

I think that what's happened on Arelith is a sad case of erring on the side of caution. Pickpockets and rogues are neutered to prevent excessive problems, and perpetually pushed to the back burner for reconsideration at some future date. The devs know we're in a terrible place and genuinely seem to want to help, but it's just not a priority.

More than any other character type, we're victims of the server rules. Despite being masters of stealth and deception, we're beholden to the same rules as anyone else regarding RP before PvP. Yes, there are ways around this like remaining in stealth while your ally fulfills the RP requirement and then jumping the guy, but even if you go for something so cowardly you need a willing ally just to do what your class is supposed to be good at, with a lousy character sheet compared to other classes attempting the same thing.

While I have extremely limited pickpocket experience, I understand that having to set others to hostile befote PP reveals you to the enemy. Even an RP purist who never spots the person IC and conscientiously gnores OOC notifications now has an onus to pretend he doesn't know who stole from him. This is a bit much.

Again, remember that this game is designed around a chasis of pickpocketing random NPCs and murdering DM controlled gnolls from stealth. Our pen and paper predecessors didn't have to worry about the same balance issues that keep us up at night. I know it's a tall order, I know it's a lot to think about, but rogues and thieves are in a terrible place right now.

I know we hear about a lot of whiney players throwing hissy fits when their build gets nerfed or what have you, but I'm struggling to stay invested in this game as a rogue. Let's recap the real bemefits of playing a rogue:

Pickpocket: Neutered, and I'd guess bards do it better.

Stealth: I'll bet bards do it better

Damage: SURPRISINGLY GOOD FOR A DEX CHARACTER! ACTUALLY DECENT!

(Don't worry, this is not usually applicable in PVP. Even with well placed trap or grenade, a competent build generally has the saves to negate this. Even if you have a buddy for the enemy to focus on, our AB is sad. Scoring a sneak attack independently is hard. PGCC it. Role play it. It's generally pathetic)

AC: Above average, and with epic dodge. But our HP is bad. Monks do this phenomenally better. The divine rogue equivalent has been nerfed, and is massively feat intensive.

Picking locks: Bards. Familiars.

UMD: Bards

Skill monkeying: Bards

Basically the only thing we have going for us is our number of skill points (even if bards have a superior skill list and can beat our numbers on any given skill) and crippling strike.

You were right to complain, things are terrible right now. Hopefully the dev team takes a hard look at pickpocketing and stealth based characters soon.

I parrot.

[Sandrow]

I would recommend a mild punishment over thieves.
Execute the thief in the square? That's too bad for a thief, we can't find such law in real life.
Fine them, put them into a jail for half an hour or less. And chatting among thieves inside jails could be fun.
Let some guards RP with them so they won't be too boring. And give them a chance to escape. Or force caught thieve to be a volunteer language teacher in cage.

Pickpocket and thieves should create a good chance for RP, not more random player kills.

[xanrael]

This isn't meant as a "rogues are fine as is" post, but just some of my personal experience with playing them and looking for the occasional PvP.

I've found for thief/rogue play on a PW that adapting the modus operandi to tricking the mark to do something stupid works better than direct methods given the ruleset.

For example, intentionally failing a pickpocket attempt and leaving just enough time for them to pursue with a line or two back and forth creates a false sense of urgency where they'll rush through the steps to allow a fight to happen without truly being ready for an ambush. Bonus points if you can sell that your character is weak and incompetent along the way.

A more thief-like mindset can excel at this as their targets are not based on prior enmity but rather opportunity, the high level walking alone without visible buffs in a small outpost/city with no one else about is a ripe target while the 6 people talking in a circle glowing like nuclear reactors are not. If the pursuer decided to go through their entire pre-fight windup or calls for help you just write it off and escape.

That's not to say the rogue class has any monopoly on executing this, lots of other classes can and do certain elements of it better.

[Spriggan Bride]

I'll just slip this in here much like a pickpocket slipping a note in someone's pocket unseen:

Pickpockets really ought to be able to slip things into people's inventory. That would be the game changer.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

I'll just slip this in here much like a pickpocket slipping a note in someone's pocket unseen:

Pickpockets really ought to be able to slip things into people's inventory. That would be the game changer.

I think that's a great idea, but I'm just giving feedback on a mechanic I think is no longer needed and really easy to remove (the notification that you been spotted) since your victim must RP before killbashing you anyways.

If there are ways to intentionally fail pickpockets so you know you were spotted as a previous post mentioned, that would be cool too.

but I am just starting with a basic simple adjustable feedback that I think will benefit pickpocket interactions on a large scale.

[Allafif]

Removing the notice would be good. I've never been RPed with by a pickpocket.

If thief types are in a bad spot, maybe the skill could provide passive income like a tiny gift of wealth? Not enough to encourage every rogue to take it, of course.

[MageTankTech]

At first I was like "unnecessarily in favour of the pickpocketer."

Now I think we can work with it and make a further change:

Remove notification for the person committing the pickpocket that they been spotted. The spotter now must rp anyway before pvp them ao they can receive notification that way. Gives spotter better opening to create reaction rp which can include playing dumb and having a devious plot.

^This.

Usually pickpockets run as soon at they get that notification, which if you can't respond immediately with magic or a knockdown, kind of makes it impossible to RP anyway.

My character has watched a rogue go through the entire process before as a third party. The rogue ran around to the backside of a pillar and suddenly broke out into a walk as they circled around (obviously shifting into stealth once line of sight with their target was broken though not to my character as they were watching the entire time) back toward their intended target. Upon making contact with their target my character spoke up saying "um, excuse me." and the pickpocketer immediately used a wand of invis to run away.

While I can certainly agree that RP would be preferable, if you make it a requirement for the one being pickpocketed to RP but don't require an RP response from the pickpocketer it could be used as an easy out. So, if you want to do this please make it a requirement on both ends like with PvP.

[Morgy]

Honestly I don’t really think pickpocketers needed this extra protection, when the act of pickpocketing is a hostile action versus a player anyway. PPers rarely RP their actual pickpocketing.

[godhand-]

Honestly I don’t really think pickpocketers needed this extra protection, when the act of pickpocketing is a hostile action versus a player anyway. PPers rarely RP their actual pickpocketing.

As i mentioned above, i don't think the mechanics for pickpocket right now align with the rp before pvp when it comes to pickpocket.
I fully support making some roleplay before pickpocket required, but if that was an enforced rule, the timer to notification should be extended to allow for it to happen without the other person realizing while you're still saying goodbye.
Even if their characters don't catch a pickpocket in the act, IC - in 30 seconds the victim player gets a message "you have been pickpocketed for 30d100 gold" And most people will instinctively think that means they caught you in the act and.,... it just doesn't work.

This unfortunately leaves us where we are now where there not being a rule that requires rp before pp, encourages hit from stealth type pickpocket, which ironically is most likely the reason the timer is so short in the first place.

[Inordinate]

Walking/running away from being confronted is a valid form of RP, how you respond to that is up to your character.

[-XXX-]

Sleight of hand just doesn't work in a PW and it's being kept on life support because it's a D&D signature rogue thing. Most players probably couldn't care less about getting PPed for 3k gp, but some seem to be going through PKFOMO when they think about thieves getting away.

[Hazard]

I think a nice change to pickpocket, that isn't a change to pickpocket at all would be:

Gold rewards from writs are put in your bank account, and not your pocket. It's one thing to have a lot of gold on you, because you've been adventuring and stuff- it's hard to abuse this, because anyone could come from anywhere and have any amount. But with writs, you know as a player that a low level (low level means anything not 30 on arelith, now) gets gold from writs, then they have to rush to the bank and put it away before it's stolen. This is exploitable knowledge, and it seems mostly only low levels get pickpocketed, and for them that few thousand is a much bigger deal than the level 30s sitting around just giving away free adamantine.

I think it'd be nice, and kind of make sense, that after you complete a writ the gold is just sent to your account. Just to stop people from being able to intentionally watch for writ completers and pickpocket them.

[-XXX-]

If victim doesn't have enough coins, remaining gold will be reduced from victim's bank account.

https://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Sleight_of_Hand

[Hazard]

If victim doesn't have enough coins, remaining gold will be reduced from victim's bank account.

https://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Sleight_of_Hand

Oh.

._.


Well. That's dumb. How?

[Scurvy Cur]

You’re supposed to hand-wave that the thief has taken 30d100 worth of random personal objects which you were forced to replace.

It’s dumb and nonsensical, but that’s on par for how we handle pickpocket here.

Re: the OP’s post, I support removing the notification that you’ve been detected.

[WanderingPoet]

You’re supposed to hand-wave that the thief has taken 30d100 worth of random personal objects which you were forced to replace.

It’s dumb and nonsensical, but that’s on par for how we handle pickpocket here.

Re: the OP’s post, I support removing the notification that you’ve been detected.

I can understand the reasoning, we have an inventory with six pages of stuff. Three thousand gold is hardly a loss compared to a single wand. This is a much better system than the old one where you could lose any small item under a certain value.

I don't think pick pocketing should even remain, it adds effectively nothing to the game other than occassionally you lose a bit of gold. You can get xp from NPCs but it pales in comparison to the massive writ xp, so it has little use beyond griefing people.

Removing the notification that they were spotted would at least allow for there to be RP, which is important.

Right now with the new rule it's the equivalent of being able to casually walk up to someone and knock them down and walk off, and they must roleplay with you first before they can attack you for the hostile action. Except 70% of the time the knockdown comes without warning and a bit after someone walks by you.

No one would enjoy that as a mechanic except maybe the knockdowner, so I'm not sure why this rule was adjust or why pick pocket remains.

[The GrumpyCat]

You’re supposed to hand-wave that the thief has taken 30d100 worth of random personal objects which you were forced to replace.

It’s dumb and nonsensical, but that’s on par for how we handle pickpocket here.

Re: the OP’s post, I support removing the notification that you’ve been detected.

I can understand the reasoning, we have an inventory with six pages of stuff. Three thousand gold is hardly a loss compared to a single wand. This is a much better system than the old one where you could lose any small item under a certain value.

I don't think pick pocketing should even remain, it adds effectively nothing to the game other than occassionally you lose a bit of gold. You can get xp from NPCs but it pales in comparison to the massive writ xp, so it has little use beyond griefing people.

Removing the notification that they were spotted would at least allow for there to be RP, which is important.

Right now with the new rule it's the equivalent of being able to casually walk up to someone and knock them down and walk off, and they must roleplay with you first before they can attack you for the hostile action. Except 70% of the time the knockdown comes without warning and a bit after someone walks by you.

No one would enjoy that as a mechanic except maybe the knockdowner, so I'm not sure why this rule was adjust or why pick pocket remains.

There were two reasons for the change

1) It brings it in line with everything else .Less exceptions, edge cases ect is good.
2) There was concern that people had attacked others without rp, because they recieved the message that gold had been stolen and presumed that someone standing near them, or who had been near them, was the Pickpocketer, when in fact they weren't! Meaning that rules were broken without anyone meaning it.

For what it's worth, with this rule change I am now far, far more in favour with the idea above that pickpocketers do not get a message to know when they've been spotted. I hope that gets changed. I think that would balence things out well.

[WanderingPoet]

You’re supposed to hand-wave that the thief has taken 30d100 worth of random personal objects which you were forced to replace.

It’s dumb and nonsensical, but that’s on par for how we handle pickpocket here.

Re: the OP’s post, I support removing the notification that you’ve been detected.

I can understand the reasoning, we have an inventory with six pages of stuff. Three thousand gold is hardly a loss compared to a single wand. This is a much better system than the old one where you could lose any small item under a certain value.

I don't think pick pocketing should even remain, it adds effectively nothing to the game other than occassionally you lose a bit of gold. You can get xp from NPCs but it pales in comparison to the massive writ xp, so it has little use beyond griefing people.

Removing the notification that they were spotted would at least allow for there to be RP, which is important.

Right now with the new rule it's the equivalent of being able to casually walk up to someone and knock them down and walk off, and they must roleplay with you first before they can attack you for the hostile action. Except 70% of the time the knockdown comes without warning and a bit after someone walks by you.

No one would enjoy that as a mechanic except maybe the knockdowner, so I'm not sure why this rule was adjust or why pick pocket remains.

There were two reasons for the change

1) It brings it in line with everything else .Less exceptions, edge cases ect is good.
2) There was concern that people had attacked others without rp, because they recieved the message that gold had been stolen and presumed that someone standing near them, or who had been near them, was the Pickpocketer, when in fact they weren't! Meaning that rules were broken without anyone meaning it.

For what it's worth, with this rule change I am now far, far more in favour with the idea above that pickpocketers do not get a message to know when they've been spotted. I hope that gets changed. I think that would balence things out well.

Oh huh, I didn't know that you got a message if you didn't successfully spot them, and thus got told exactly who did it. That makes a lot of sense why you'd want to prevent people PVPing random people by mistake!

If that's the case, nothing stops people from killing a random person after some RP when they can't prove they're not a pickpocket (which they can't). Maybe that message should also be removed and the only one is if someone spots the pickpocket?

So none for being spotted and none for finding your gold missing (other than noticing it as a player)

[Mortem_Fero]

In short: +1 remove notice on failed PP but increase time on notice of success as well

Tried pick pocketing on a rogue/bard character and the message "you have been robbed" on a successful sleight of hand attempt for the victim incentivizes non RP methods:

1) Tried to tie someone in a conversation e.g. asking them for direction and use sleight of hand on them. Sometimes I vaguely emoted (distracting or implying a form of brief contact) it sometimes not. 8 Seconds later while still mid conversation (dont know the exact time) the victim was informed that he/she has been pickpockted even though I was successful which lead to 90% of the time to the RP "hey you just robbed me"

2) I maxed out hide/ms and/or use Invisibilty and look for people that I assume have low spot/listen and use sleight of on hand on them and leave. While the chaos can be fun - people accusing the wrong person of the bad deed - I am very little involved in it.

While I would like to play out the 1st method more I am heavily punished for it. This arguments stands on the basis that sleight of hand is not going anywhere (I am aware that its a pretty divisive topic - I for myself played a lot of rogues/sds but never dipped into pp before and I was here when we could steal items)

I am for the notion to remove the notice of a failed PP attempt but also increase the time the victim is informed that something is missing that it can create a reasnable doubt who the culprit is.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

You’re supposed to hand-wave that the thief has taken 30d100 worth of random personal objects which you were forced to replace.

It’s dumb and nonsensical, but that’s on par for how we handle pickpocket here.

Re: the OP’s post, I support removing the notification that you’ve been detected.

I can understand the reasoning, we have an inventory with six pages of stuff. Three thousand gold is hardly a loss compared to a single wand. This is a much better system than the old one where you could lose any small item under a certain value.

I don't think pick pocketing should even remain, it adds effectively nothing to the game other than occassionally you lose a bit of gold. You can get xp from NPCs but it pales in comparison to the massive writ xp, so it has little use beyond griefing people.

Removing the notification that they were spotted would at least allow for there to be RP, which is important.

Right now with the new rule it's the equivalent of being able to casually walk up to someone and knock them down and walk off, and they must roleplay with you first before they can attack you for the hostile action. Except 70% of the time the knockdown comes without warning and a bit after someone walks by you.

No one would enjoy that as a mechanic except maybe the knockdowner, so I'm not sure why this rule was adjust or why pick pocket remains.

There were two reasons for the change

1) It brings it in line with everything else .Less exceptions, edge cases ect is good.
2) There was concern that people had attacked others without rp, because they recieved the message that gold had been stolen and presumed that someone standing near them, or who had been near them, was the Pickpocketer, when in fact they weren't! Meaning that rules were broken without anyone meaning it.

For what it's worth, with this rule change I am now far, far more in favour with the idea above that pickpocketers do not get a message to know when they've been spotted. I hope that gets changed. I think that would balence things out well.

Thankyou, yeah I wouldn't have suggested it otherwise. I feel it just make everything more in line with the new rules and helping create more RP for both sides.