Warlock sucks.

[Luingar]

Glad you could join me here. Let me be clear. Warlock is fun, Playing a warlock is fun. The core concept of warlock is pretty great, but the issue is BUILDING a warlock, sucks. ESPECIALLY if you want to do something unusual.

Why is this? The attribute requirements. They're all so high, that you have to dedicate your entire build to a specific line off pact feats, and so many of them are entirely incompatible, not just because they're different pacts or types of blast, but because they need entirely different attributes, EVEN WHEN THEY'RE NOT ACTUALLY GOOD!

Lets take a look at hideous blow. A wonderful concept, spend two feats, use your strength, do more damage. High risk, High reward, very fun. It takes twenty strength, which sucks, but you want high strength anyway. Where this becomes a problem is the fact that A: You now have two stats that need to be INCREDIBLY high, which is barely possible, and means you can't buff up your con or dex to do something like.. you know, survive in melee range? And it's a damn shame, because the concept of an undead regenerating warlock, punching the shit out of his foes with magic, is a super cool idea.
Also, eldritch mastery is just better and more accessible in every way. Most the feats are like this.

I suggest removing, or DRAMATICALLY reducing the ability score requirements for ALL the warlock feats. Yes, all of them.

Now, I already hear your response. "Oh, We can't do that, if we did that, warlocks would just take all the best feats every time" but that's not true at all, for one simple reason

You only get 8 class feats you can assign freely. And that's if you don't get greater or epic pact. If you epic pact, you have 6 feats. Every feat you spend doing something means you can't use it doing something else, that balance is already inherently there!

Lets look at hideous blow again. Lets say you go pure warlock. You spend 2 feats on undying pact (not counting the first because it HAS to be a pact feat), and 2 on hideous blow. You now have 4 feats left. Now you get all the mastery feats to be the best punchlock you can be, fantastic.

You are now basically a weird blackguard, with lower AB, but better sustain, and you have only one class feat left for dark blessing or yoink or anything else.

That's the worst case scenario I can think of, and that's assuming you don't dip at all. What's that? need tumble? Dipped ranger? Well, your 8 feats just turned into six, which means the build I described above is gonna hit a hell of a lot less hard, and you can't get dark blessing or eldritch armor or anything else.

So yeah. I suggest we remove the ability score requirements from almost all the warlock pacts. I don't think it'll do much to game balance, but it'll open up a lot more interesting and entertaining builds. Perhaps move some more of the top tier feats (Epic eldritch mastery, mostly) to require epic pact, to make some of the more threatening combos require absolute dedication to achieve.

Please, I want to play punchlocks. I wanna see more warlocks with fun feats like sage tongues Eldritch euophony, eldritch armor.

In addition to normal feedback, please reply with the most broken build/combo you can think of that this would enable. I'm pretty sure they won't be any more powerful than some other class combo doing the same thing.

[Luingar]

I have been alerted to the fact that warlock has basically every single class skill, from discipline to tumble to UMD.... Maybe take another look at that too? Seems a bit odd to me.

[Arienette]

This is extremely confusing to me.

1. Warlock seems very OP pretty much across the board.

2. There seems to be a TOM of different viable ways to make a warlock.

It’s probably the last class that needs any improvement.

[Good Character]

You appeared to have picked out one specific thing about warlocks, and ironically it is the worst type of warlock (i.e. melee-lock).

Hideous blow certainly needs some help or a rework, but warlock as a whole is top tier. No reason to let them have their cake and eat it.

[Eyeliner]

I have been alerted to the fact that warlock has basically every single class skill, from discipline to tumble to UMD.... Maybe take another look at that too? Seems a bit odd to me.

That's three skills that make sense for them? They don't have nearly as many options as bard. I think that part of them is fine, they're supposed to be wily operators.

Warlock seems like a meticulously put together house of cards you don't want to mess with too much. Hideous blow does need another pass but I don't think you can do much better than the way the rest of the class is built. Maybe Hideous Blow locks could have some hex synergy or something.

[Luingar]

My problem with warlock is you have basically 2 choices. First, which pact do you take? Then, blaster or caster. There's so many options that can't be really done, because they're locked behind prohibitive attribute bonuses. I don't warlock to be more powerful, I just want them to be more varied and interesting.

[Eyeliner]

They do have a lot of options though, even between blaster and caster. I mean they have as much or more than most classes for variety even when building pure and there are a few options for dips (bard, though no idea how good an idea that is, pale master for undying, etc)

I mean I've played at least four warlocks and they all felt incredibly different. A high con and cha, no dex sphere blaster for example can be very viable with the right pact and plays completely differently than a low con high dex beam blaster. I can't think of another class where once I kill off one I want to jump right back in with another variation.

You're right on hideous blow though, it could use another look. I don't think too many warlocks stick with that.

[AstralUniverse]

BUILDING a warlock, sucks.

I disagree, building a warlock is fun and has a lot of interesting options.

ESPECIALLY if you want to do something unusual.

After playing several warlocks to lvl 30 and further, I find that the more you stray away from pvp optimization with this class and go 'unusual' you smurf pve harder. You cant eat the cake and have it whole, but you get rewarded proportionately for every feat you take and I think it's great design.

For example, a 2 pact warlock can be also an epic fiend summoner + agonizing blast, or be epic undying summoner and also have greater doom and agonizing blast. Just two examples who really destroy the content and make some hard bosses look like cakewalk, and those arent even pvp optimized but they are not easy to take down either. Melee warlock has one good setup if you are Drow and I'd mostly agree it leaves some to be desired but that's just one out of a sea of options with this class so your feedback is mostly a hyperbole. I'm sorry to say.

The attribute requirements.

If you look back at previous iterations of this class you'll see that the requirements for pretty much all abilities were much lower and it created serious balance issues and overpowered stuff. Those requirements are all there for a reason. Every last one of them.

And yeah from this point of your feedback you're only talking about Hideous Blow and I already addressed that.

[The_Icelord]

Sorry, but I don't agree. Warlocks are way more powerful than say.. wizards.

Here's a little breakdown:

Hitdie: D6 vs D4

Skillpoints: 6 + int vs 2 + int. Yes, wizards have int as their primary stat, so theirs will be high, but that's an advantage anyone can have by adding in int to their build, and if not, their own primary stat will give them their own flavor of bonusses.

AB: 3/4 per level vs 1/2 per level

Saves: 2 good saves ( Ref/Will ) vs 1 good save ( will )

Spells: Spontaneous casting, a bunch of infinite cast spells, and otherwise have more spellslots per spell level than a wizard who has no spontaneous casting, and only has a 5 or 10% chance of being allowed to cast 1 spell for free, and if specialist, cast a single medium level one for free once every 3 minutes.

The only advantage a wizard has in spells, is that their selection is larger.

Feats: 8 class feats.. vs.. 6 class feats. yes, wizards get LESS feats than you. Also our feats are far inferior to the ones you can select.

Armour: Warlocks get to wear it and have part of their ASF reduced as well. As a wizard you have to invest 3 epic feats and dip into a class that has armour feats if you want to be able to do this.. oh and there's no armours that have any good wizard bonusses, so itemization wise, you're also screwed if you try this.

I am sorry.. until wizards get more feats, more wizard only feat selections on par with those you can select, more hitpoints, more skillpoints more AB, more free spells, more infinite spells.. I don't think warlocks need more.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

Warlocks only suck when compared to invokers if not embracing dex blaster warlock meta but hideous blow isn't as bad, you are just trying to do what it was intentionally made difficult to do.

I'm still bummed out about not being to haste summons and feel warlocks are a little dated with sequencer changes, but I still like hideous blow.

So let's discuss builds where hideous blow does work

The hybrid fiendlock melee edition can have pact 3 abyssal for awesome surges for blasts and spells (which you will use for aoe/range). A high str and cha score for tier 6 summon and agonizing blaster + greater hideous blow. You single target damage will be higher than a dex blaster is (until you factor precision blast) and you will have a tier 6 summon.

The 2nd one I like is similar to what you want but much more tanky.

Starpact 2 27 warlock 3 bg with IE (eldritch armor) can rock over 70 ac while you hideous blast your enemies. Empowered sound Lance will help for lvlimg when in parties/dealing with mobs etc.

[Luingar]

Warlock is like the fungal caves. It's a fun little dungeon, until you realize it's a freaky maze that's basically impossible to get out of until you've put significant time into understanding it, and rewards you for completing it with craploads of traps and tough enemies to kick you in the teeth.

All you veterans already knew this, already know how to navigate the map, and and don't go into warlock until you have the map figured out and are ready for the derro at the end.

Warlock is a Snuggle a Bugbear noob trap, and it needs to be fixed. Add more feats in the tree if you're worried about certain combinations being too strong. Hell, nerf warlock into the dirt, and make the things that make it strong (HD, class skill, whatever) into feats that you have the option to take, I don't care, but as it is now, it temps noobs with an interesting class that Snuggle a Bugbear you over, not at the beginning, where you can sigh, delete_character, and try again, but at levels 15, 20, or more, when you're already deep in the weeds and invested, and losing the character, because the core concept you built them for is ACTUALLY IMPOSSIBLE, because you put a point into wisdom instead of dex.

And I swear, if you guys saying shit like "oh, it was bad in the past, because of this" or "you're wrong, it's really easy to plan it out".... You have the fungal caves map. You know how to build warlock. You're not falling for the traps, and you are not the ones suffering from the actual problem here. It may have caused problems in the past, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have problems now.

Warlock is very strong, and now has enough overlap with invoker that it can be adjusted to have more of its own identity. Add more feats in certain trees, reduce the number of class feats it grants, mix some stuff in with pacts, or make it so they get better with stats, but don't require them, there's a LOT that could be done. Now, this is the last post I'm going make on the topic, because every time I touch it, I remember the twenty four levels I put into warlock before I realized my build sucks, because I didn't know I needed dex for eldritch mastery, and the sixteen levels I put in the other warlock before I realized my concept sucks without, hey, look, it's eldritch mastery again.

Screw it, make blasts better and delete eldritch mastery.

Out

[Kuma]

calling a class that requires half an hour's effort to build a "trap" is a wild take i didn't expect when i woke up this morning

playing a warlock now and there's some things i'd tweak, but it's mostly things like the dark invocations being a bit crap. sure the feat investment is high and maybe could use tweaking but i would hardly say the class sucks

edit: re-reading, knowing that the Eldritch Mastery feat exists at all but not reading its prereqs is kind of wild to me

[xanrael]

Starpact 2 27 warlock 3 bg with IE (eldritch armor) can rock over 70 ac while you hideous blast your enemies. Empowered sound Lance will help for lvlimg when in parties/dealing with mobs etc.

I agree with the rest of your post, but I think you have to take epic pact for eldritch armor so you cannot divine shield + improved expertise + greater hideous blow. At least according to the wiki.

As an alternative you can take greater hideous blow and divine shield together or even throw in bard as well with epiphany (though even with arcane defense you're looking at CL: 26 vs dispels so eeeh). Those should get you somewhere in the low to high 60s* AC wise without dropping your AB/damage with a bit higher focus on cha as your strength requirements are not quite as high.

*The one I threw together in 5 minutes with Invoker chains had 64 AC with divine shield up, 68 with bard thrown in. Could probably get to 66 or 70 with some different choices/race.

[Preserver]

Whilst I do not agree with the OP on the notion that Warlock is either weak or needs fixing (I think that Warlocks is a very powerful and fun class to play!), I think it -does- tackle a slightly more relevant issue which is the necessity for several of the Arelith classes to require at least a modicum of guidance and build prep to be played.

This is not necessarily an issue if someone knows they must go to the Wiki and, for example, check that some of the Warlock feats have a specific stat requirement, but it does mean that a new player must know and be clearly informed that a Wiki read for their class may be necessary to avoid pitfalls into unmanageable builds.

Arelith has, in a way, a moderate barrier to entry. I as a moderately old player know that Warlock requires DEX if you want to build them based on Eldritch Blast, but a new player may legitimately not know that. I think that there may be a benefit for some additional ingame instructions that direct the player towards the Wiki, so that they can check these very relevant, yet at times vaguely hidden pieces of information.

Also yes Hideous Blow is definitely the cool but weak version of the Eldritch Blast chain of feats.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

Starpact 2 27 warlock 3 bg with IE (eldritch armor) can rock over 70 ac while you hideous blast your enemies. Empowered sound Lance will help for lvlimg when in parties/dealing with mobs etc.

I agree with the rest of your post, but I think you have to take epic pact for eldritch armor so you cannot divine shield + improved expertise + greater hideous blow. At least according to the wiki.

As an alternative you can take greater hideous blow and divine shield together or even throw in bard as well with epiphany (though even with arcane defense you're looking at CL: 26 vs dispels so eeeh). Those should get you somewhere in the low to high 60s* AC wise without dropping your AB/damage with a bit higher focus on cha as your strength requirements are not quite as high.

*The one I threw together in 5 minutes with Invoker chains had 64 AC with divine shield up, 68 with bard thrown in. Could probably get to 66 or 70 with some different choices/race.

Gosh eldritch armor is such a taunt feat hard to use. Doesn't even give better warlock armor lol

[With Darkness and Silence]

Eh, warlock is the best pve class imo.

It comes up short in pvp. You'll win fights against mid tier pvpers if you're actually good but Warlocks lack an execution. Between random lag and load time differences, warlock players have to play a battle of attrition where they can't slip up and have to fight for a long, long time. But that isn't the best thing when some random fixture lag could cause the dude who only has to left-click for victory to bowl you over with crits. Lag happens.

It has a lot to offer a high skill in pvp, but like, I can't really see this as a fun expectancy personally.

Warlock is the definition of consistency. It's why they're the PvE kings.

Can't say I would change a thing or what I would. I like being able to solo everything (sometimes with a prayer and heal potions on-hand, but you really can't pull this off as a non warlock.)


Small edit:

To address the point about builds. To be honest, Arelith classes keep getting more and more straightforward and the advent of pure level 30s is something a current member of the team has always dreamed about doing.

Making a good build has never been more straightforward. Meet the requirements, like literally all DND makes you do, and you're instantly following guidelines.

Taking steps out to distractions like melee and armor feats is what messes people up. Because they're not a good design concept for a class you don't want in smacking range. It's not a favored soul. It's not a spellsword.

But building a good character is very straightforward for a lot of classes. There isn't even much variation in the warlock blaster builds. It's like, taste of variety on your 3 blast upgrades.

[Sandrow]

T6 outsiders OP.
Well, that's even now.

I think the proper adjust of warlock is to adjust Inficast cast list, give each pact some cookies, including some newly added spells. Such as command, Sustenance.

Bring those lesser passive some cookies. Such as more ritual or language option for Otherworldly Whispers. Leaps and Bounds gives climb bonus. Add Amphibious Character as a passive.


But overall, warlocks survives in all servers. People gather here not because warlock sucks, but it's warlock.

[Preserver]

Small edit:

To address the point about builds. To be honest, Arelith classes keep getting more and more straightforward and the advent of pure level 30s is something a current member of the team has always dreamed about doing.

Making a good build has never been more straightforward. Meet the requirements, like literally all DND makes you do, and you're instantly following guidelines.

Taking steps out to distractions like melee and armor feats is what messes people up. Because they're not a good design concept for a class you don't want in smacking range. It's not a favored soul. It's not a spellsword.

But building a good character is very straightforward for a lot of classes. There isn't even much variation in the warlock blaster builds. It's like, taste of variety on your 3 blast upgrades.

As an answer to this!
I agree, to select the right levels is very straightforward (though I suppose there are excellent builds hidden behind specific level selections at specific points of the build itself).

What I argued before is that, for example, one cannot know that Warlock needs Dexterity for Eldritch Blast unless they check the Wiki or experience it directly... which can be frustrating for new players. Suppose that, for example, I roll a Warlock with the belief they are a primarily caster class because the flavour seems to describe them like so: I aim for CHA and CON because they are stats that I can guess are very relevant in general, and dump DEX, simply because classes like Wizard and Sorcerer, casters, usually do not need DEX.

Do note, I am not telling that change needs to happen in that direction, simply that it'd be nice for Class Descriptions at character creation to have a little disclaimer going: "Warlocks usually invest in CHA and DEX if they want to focus on Eldritch Blast..." etc, with a few advices based on hyper-relevant build variations.

[Kalopsia]

The "Recommended" button actually works for starting stats, by the way :) It suggests a solid stat spread for all base classes as of a few months ago, warlocks included. For them, the recommendation would be 16 CHA, 14DEX/CON/INT and 10STR (plus race modifiers), which covers a broad variety of warlock builds.

I also think that due to how versatile the class is, you can be a viable warlock with pretty much any primary stat, as long as you haven't for some reason chosen to max WIS.
That said, Hideous Blow needs a bit of attention. And, in due time, will get it. We have a fancy instant attack framework now, after all.

[Ork]

restore plant shape hideous blows warlock

[Dreams]

I'd love to see Hideous Blow become feasible in it's own right. At the moment it just doesn't work out. There's too much you need to take, most of it gated behind stuff that's impossible to attain for it. It's way too tight, and comes no where close to any other kind of build such as a blaster warlock.

[xf1313]

I do agree at current state warlock lack variation.

Seems the only good option is pure warlock summoner or blaster, you go pure or 25/5, or cry from your losses. Good blaster must have high dex and high cha.

Plus starlock has a odd ability and odd spell list

Every warlock need darkness lol

[AstralUniverse]

Starpact 2 27 warlock 3 bg with IE (eldritch armor) can rock over 70 ac while you hideous blast your enemies. Empowered sound Lance will help for lvlimg when in parties/dealing with mobs etc.

Eldritch Armor needs an epic pact, otherwise it's too much ac with divine shield for a class that doesnt care about their own ab because they work of touches.

[Edens_Fall]

The "Recommended" button actually works for starting stats, by the way It suggests a solid stat spread for all base classes as of a few months ago, warlocks included. For them, the recommendation would be 16 CHA, 14DEX/CON/INT and 10STR (plus race modifiers), which covers a broad variety of warlock builds.

I also think that due to how versatile the class is, you can be a viable warlock with pretty much any primary stat, as long as you haven't for some reason chosen to max WIS.
That said, Hideous Blow needs a bit of attention. And, in due time, will get it. We have a fancy instant attack framework now, after all.

This is awesome news to hear!

[Party in the forest at midnight]

The "Recommended" button actually works for starting stats, by the way It suggests a solid stat spread for all base classes as of a few months ago, warlocks included. For them, the recommendation would be 16 CHA, 14DEX/CON/INT and 10STR (plus race modifiers), which covers a broad variety of warlock builds.

Wow, I had to go check this out for myself, this is really cool.