Arcane Marauder Nerf Feedback

[Arienette]

So, Marauder is a big loser with this update.

Losses:
1. Lost 4 AC to Weave Affinity change.
2. Lost some damage, as much as 5 for those using enchanted bronze weapons
3. Lost various passive bonuses
4. Lost 1 additional AC in "PvP mode" (cold imbue)
5. Lost 4 passive regen in "PvE Mode" (neg imbue)
6. PvE regen via negative maelstrom halved
7. Lost the cool vibe and clear speed of being able to Maelstrom every second mob group in PvE

Gains: Nada

With these changes I am struggling to see how Marauder makes any sense to play compared to an abjurant champion? Or even a pathless 2Hand spellsword?

In my mind, the whole point of the path boiled down to:

1. Enhancement Bonus
2. Faster maelstroms

It has now lost both those things, and gained nothing.

[Atlus]

I was using the onislayer nodachi which was an expensive investment that greatly benefited off the enhancement bonus. But that's just the cherry on top of this absolute bludgeoning the class received. There's a severe loss in damage output as well as AC gain if you're a pure STR Marauder, which my horc Marauder is. I kind of don't want to roll the character...

Arcane Marauder is now OBJECTIVELY terrible over just playing pathless 2H as implied. It's entirely inferior as a class path, period. Wasn't the entire path's identity built around enhancing and empowering weapon imbue at the cost of survivability? Now it doesn't even get that.

To put it simply, why does the marauder exist now and how is it intended to be played?

[ViggoEvan]

Honestly, yeah, the only thing which really bugs me is the maelstrom, since it gave marauder a cool feel. As for losing the ac? Yep, it sucks but it’s manageable, the enhancement? Same thing, the bonus effects from imbues? It hurts, but again not really a huge loss.
All in all, without having tested it on live yet it’s hard to say, but on paper the nerfs are kinda scary.

[Good Character]

The path was certainly unexpectedly overpowered. However, this nerf does gut the existing style of marauders (i.e. high STR). Rather than mentioning the specific downfalls of the nerf and path, I am just curious what the intent of these nerfs were and the intent of going the path now.

[Archnon]

Honestly, after the nerf, what does the path still have, lets see:

-Weapon specialization
-Power attack
-Epic Weapon specialization

That is just a bad decision. You spend a feat on toughness, AND A FEAT ON THE PATH! to gain 6 damage per round at the expense of losing the option to use the shield and losing all of the benefits of armor imbue, which are extremely substantial given the nuke to the level 26 imbue bonuses.

On top of that, adding a dex requirement to a class that requires Con, Str and Int already is just cruel.

Honestly, at this rate the path should have been deleted and just forced relevel as a base spellsword. That is pretty much what this amounts to.

[Atlus]

On top of that, adding a dex requirement to a class that requires Con, Str and Int already is just cruel.

This. The aggressive stat spread weakens the class only further and isn't really sustainable... I thought the point was that dex wasn't a requirement for this path?

[WanderingPoet]

Honestly, after the nerf, what does the path still have, lets see:

-Weapon specialization
-Power attack
-Epic Weapon specialization

Not commenting on the above whether it's good or bad, but you -do- get 1-5 physical DR as well, which isn't small, That's the equivalent of EDR1 with 1-2 on top, and stacks with EDR1-3.

Unless the wiki is out of date, anyways.

[AstralUniverse]

Few things.

- The dex requirement isnt a big deal. I dont think anyone playing this class is actually relaying on AC anyway. I dont think a drop of even 4 AC really changes how this class functions and performs all that much.

- The loss of up to 5 damage is a pretty big deal.

- The loss of greater imbue is insane and the main head scratcher here for me. I'm puzzled about that one. (I was confused indeed)

- The path still gets about 4 physical resistance which stacks with normal DR such as EDR or premonition, and can still vamp so Functionality Intact(tm) and if this class still functions the same and performs better or on par with other classes then it just bluntly justifies all of these nerfs. but I'll let SS players do the "before and after" comparison.

Overall this nerf seems brutal okay on paper. edit: pathless seems better than marauder for soloing and marauder is narrowed more towards glass-cannon. I wonder if maybe the 4 dr should have been the nerf instead of taking away the damage from the weapon imbue

[Kalthariam]

I'm not an expert theory crafter or anything, so take this all with a grain of salt, but from how I currently see things...

Most Arcane Marauders stop at 18 Hard int, because it's required to cast 8th level spells. And they do not go past that point. So effectively it's really 4/- DR, not 1-5, because I can't think of any marauder that wouldn't have 18 int to be able to cast their spells, and I can't think of a reason a marauder would get 2 extra hard int points.

Also, even if it did stack with Epic damage reduction.. being tanky isn't really the Marauder thing? Marauders whole thing is to just get in and hit hard is it not? EDR seems like something an Abjurant Champion might take, but not a Marauder.

Which is what's been changed at this point.. they don't hit noticeably harder than any other spell swords, nor do they hit faster than any of the other spell swords now. They give up the ability to imbue armor, and the ability to use shields, for Power attack (I have no idea how often people use this ability, I don't personally use it though) and +4 damage through damage specialization. 4/- DR is a bit of a bonus I suppose, but Abjurant Champion gets to keep the imbue armors, has some physical damage reduction and elemental damage reduction? Even an unpathed Spellsword gets to keep the armor imbue, and still keep weapon imbues, and can go 2h or 1h and shield if needed.

However, from what I'm seeing, most of the benefits of taking Marauder are gone now, and you'd be better off not being a Marauder and getting more flexibility in your defensive options as well as still being nearly equally as offensive? You lose basically 4 damage not going Marauder from what I see.

Further: I was under the impression the greater weapon imbue was to make up for the fact you lose the armor imbues and lose all the passive bonuses from greater armor imbues? A marauder now basically completely loses access to, for example, the Necrotic Imbue regeneration, only the Marauder now doesn't have access to these passives?

So, in the end, is there.. really a reason to be an Arcane Marauder with these changes? From my point of view, there does not seem to be one, but again, I'm happy to be shown the errors of my ways if I am wrong though.

[AstralUniverse]

even if it did stack with Epic damage reduction..

It does stack with damage reduction tho. In fact, it's even applied before damage reduction so it makes your premonition be eaten slower. To be clear, it is not 4/- damage reduction, it is just 4 damage *resistance* which has no /X modifier. resistance to slashing, piercing and bludgeoning (aka: physical).

being tanky isn't really the Marauder thing?

There are few types of Tanks in this game. There's AC tank who simply doesnt take damage, there's drain-tank who simply life-steals a lot (like ranger), and there's DR tank which reduces a lot of incoming damage and usually comes with big HP pool (like barb). Marauder is a bit of a mix between the second and third. It is definitely ~A tank in design.

[Kalthariam]

I'd argue it doesn't make them a tank. It makes them a half step between Tank and DPS. A bruiser style, not really a tank.

Even still, I don't really see the 4/- DR as anything people are specifically selecting the Marauder Path Spell sword for? Kinda felt like the idea was to sacrifice your defensive options to be able to be more offensive based. The DR came across as just a small cookie to slightly offset the fact you lost the ability to use a shield, and lost the ability to imbue your armor.

[Arienette]

Few things.

- The dex requirement isnt a big deal. I dont think anyone playing this class is actually relaying on AC anyway. I dont think a drop of even 4 AC really changes how this class functions and performs all that much.

- The loss of up to 5 damage is a pretty big deal.

- The loss of greater imbue is insane and the main head scratcher here for me. I'm puzzled about that one.

- The path still gets about 4 physical resistance which stacks with normal DR such as EDR or premonition, and can still vamp so Functionality Intact(tm) and if this class still functions the same and performs better or on par with other classes then it just bluntly justifies all of these nerfs. but I'll let SS players do the "before and after" comparison.

Overall this nerf seems brutal on paper.

You are way better at “running the numbers” than me. How big of an effect would AC dropping from 48 to 44 have?

What I can tell you from experience is this. My marauder can historically survive quite well in PvE if played cleverly. However, if my shadow shield was breached (loss of 5 AC), whatever dungeon I was in would suddenly become a “fighting desperately for my life” situation REAL fast.

[Atlus]

The drop in AC is going to render my marauder a disaster, personally. My current build could only squeak out a 46 AC total. I need as much hit mitigation as possible to not burn through my HP buffers to begin with. Marauders don't get good AC to begin with, and they totally rely on getting as much as possible without cutting their bottom line, aka their damage and spell output.

Unfortunately, their bottom line has been cut out from under them in a way they can't buffer with stats now due to both taking away their enhancement bonus, as well as shaving away their maelstrom output. This isn't to say that messing with their necro imbues hasn't put a dent in their ability to retain health when already being so vulnerable. The damage reduction benefits barely make a blip on the radar.

[Aren]

Marauder needed a nerf and I've been saying this for a while.
But most of the issues with Marauder/spellsword, could have been alleviated with them losing Mordekainens / Time Stop.

These recent nerfs turn on too many dials at once, making the path nigh useless.

[Cutieriot]

It was overtuned and now it's undertuned. Maybe give armour imbue back or let marauders relevel.

[ViggoEvan]

Right, so after some basic pve testing, pve is significantly more difficult. Epic bosses themselves aren't that much harder but getting to the bosses usually results in premo/gsk being stripped after one to two basic groups of enemies. As soon as the damage reduction was lost, I started taking enough damage I had to burn several cure critical potions after every fight, and even trash mobs, (fire giants and the mobs around darkspires dragon) can easily drop me below half before I am able to take them out. So yes, I can still solo epic pve, but it's about as fun and cheap as pulling teeth, and the risk v. reward is pretty bad. That's just me though, and mine isn't quite optimized, so that will make a difference.

[Atlus]

I can still solo epic pve, but it's about as fun and cheap as pulling teeth, and the risk v. reward is pretty bad. That's just me though, and mine isn't quite optimized, so that will make a difference.

My experience is about the same. I feel in party play I'd come off as a burden now due to it. Realistically if these changes aren't dialed back to at least allow the marauder to have it's self sustain, I'm already prepping to just rebuild into an abjurant champion.

[ViggoEvan]

I don't think it will be a burden in groups, your damage is still pretty good. But any identity the marauder had has sort of been stripped away imo.

[Aren]

It was overtuned and now it's undertuned. Maybe give armour imbue back or let marauders relevel.

anyone can relevel at any point in time. Just use the -relevel command in game.

[AstralUniverse]

Few things.

- The dex requirement isnt a big deal. I dont think anyone playing this class is actually relaying on AC anyway. I dont think a drop of even 4 AC really changes how this class functions and performs all that much.

- The loss of up to 5 damage is a pretty big deal.

- The loss of greater imbue is insane and the main head scratcher here for me. I'm puzzled about that one.

- The path still gets about 4 physical resistance which stacks with normal DR such as EDR or premonition, and can still vamp so Functionality Intact(tm) and if this class still functions the same and performs better or on par with other classes then it just bluntly justifies all of these nerfs. but I'll let SS players do the "before and after" comparison.

Overall this nerf seems brutal on paper.

You are way better at “running the numbers” than me. How big of an effect would AC dropping from 48 to 44 have?

That's the thing. If we look *just* at this factor, 44 ac vs 48 ac, then I'd say it's really not a big deal because it's not an AC tank anyway. It will take slightly more hits than before (and was already taking a lot of hits with sub 50 ac) but that alone is a barely notable nerf. It's only when you combine it with the other nerfs that then the outcome might be that this path is worse than pathless even for 2handed SS builds.

[Purplemyst]

Did a Dev have a PvP with a maurader and nerf it to the ground as pay back!?

All jokes aside, I feel the path has lost everything that made it worth taking, please reconsider some of the change or give it some other special cookie.

[Xerah]

What have you done to my boy??

I haven’t played with these changes, but the biggest thing that difficult to resolve here is that AbjChamp was arguably a better choice as a whole but has been left untouched. These are pretty significant changes, so holding these two side by side is confusing.

The only thing I can think of was worry about too many monkey grip dudes running around (though that combo would be far from optimal).

[Tarkus the dog]

I'm not sure how can one fairly compare the giga chad marauder damage to stock laugh emoji abjurant champion/whatever the hell spellsword damage and call it a small difference in comparison, or try to argue that if going 2h + spellsword one should leave 6 damage 4 dr on the table like it's worth nothing or because I want more AC on my twohander. The goal with the change was to make the marauder more in line with what they are supposed to be -- glass cannons, previously they had the best of the both worlds but now they properly lean into the "get in, mess shit up, leave" idea per the designer's intention. If this is not how you want to play your spellsword that's fair -- relevel is an option, but claiming we all ought to dig a hole for the path is a bit silly.

Most of the arguments being "they can't tank well now" confirms that they were too powerful at too many things anyway.

[Arienette]

I'm not sure how can one fairly compare the giga chad marauder damage to stock laugh emoji abjurant champion/whatever the hell spellsword damage and call it a small difference in comparison, or try to argue that if going 2h + spellsword one should leave 6 damage 4 dr on the table like it's worth nothing or because I want more AC on my twohander. The goal with the change was to make the marauder more in line with what they are supposed to be -- glass cannons, previously they had the best of the both worlds but now they properly lean into the "get in, mess shit up, leave" idea per the designer's intention. If this is not how you want to play your spellsword that's fair -- relevel is an option, but claiming we all ought to dig a hole for the path is a bit silly.

Most of the arguments being "they can't tank well now" confirm that they were too powerful at too many things anyway.

They could never "tank well". They could survive if you specifically did all the things to push your AC as high as possible (48 or so), ran with constant haste and conceal, used negative imbue (which diminished your dmg output generally and your PvP capacity), and played smart.

Like, you could do content and survive by healing yourself between fights.

Losing 4 AC, 4 regen, and having your malestrom regen halved puts the marauder into a position where instead of tearing apart a group of mobs and needing to use a few heal kits at the end, every tough PvE encounter is a life-or-death event where you are kiting and using invisibility to duck away and try to live.

Losing +5 EB to AB not only drops your damage significantly, it completely changes the gearing situation for the class.

Forget Abjuration Champion. Forget what Marauder "used to have". Lets just compare the Pathless to Marauder. This is what it boils down to as of this moment. Taking Marauder over Pathless means you lose all this:

1. The ability to use whatever basin enchanted armor you want imbued to +5 armor AC
2. Class level 25-30 & base (Hard) INT 18+: 30% immunity and 15/- resistance against a chosen element
3. Four bite-back damage
4. Weave bonus AC of 4
4. Your choice of the following, flexible on rest:
Acid: The above retaliation damage increases by 1d8.
Cold: Spellsword armor class increases by 1 (AC Dodge Modifier).
Electrical: Spellsword movement speed increases by 20%.
Fire: Spellsword attack bonus increases by 1.
Negative: Spellsword gains regeneration equal to her base (Hard) intelligence modifier, up to a maximum of +5. Healing scales with a target's immunity/vulnerability against negative energy damage.

You trade all of the above for:

1. DR of 4/- (theoretically 5/-)
2. Epic Weapon Spec (6 damage)

This does not seem like a reasonable trade, at all.

[Xerah]

I'm not sure how can one fairly compare the giga chad marauder damage to stock laugh emoji abjurant champion/whatever the hell spellsword damage and call it a small difference in comparison, or try to argue that if going 2h + spellsword one should leave 6 damage 4 dr on the table like it's worth nothing or because I want more AC on my twohander. The goal with the change was to make the marauder more in line with what they are supposed to be -- glass cannons, previously they had the best of the both worlds but now they properly lean into the "get in, mess shit up, leave" idea per the designer's intention. If this is not how you want to play your spellsword that's fair -- relevel is an option, but claiming we all ought to dig a hole for the path is a bit silly.

Most of the arguments being "they can't tank well now" confirms that they were too powerful at too many things anyway.

If that was the goal, then removed EB for AB is completely against that goal.