Spirited Charge damage with different wepon question

[Helsing]

I'm currently Level 13 with 3 lvl in Cavalier, tried both Lance and Naginata charge, both did around 50 extra charge damage, which is inconsistent with the wiki sheet as below:

Lance(Med&Small): 7*CL base dmg, 20 x1.5 crit
...
Naginata: 3*CL base dmg, 20 x2 crit but hits twice, mild bleed

So I wonder if the wiki is not updated, and is that all weapon have same CL multiplier now?

[TroubledWaters]

Likely because you are two-handing the naginata and one-handing the lance.

As the lance can't be two-handed, it's one of the weaker, if not the weakest cav weapon to charge with. It has no bonuses except for a little more damage, which you could just as well get from two-handing a better charge weapon. Sure, you get a shield, but I don't think the purpose of mounted cavalry in D&D, IRL, or anywhere was ever to tank damage.

This is a real shame, as the lance can't be used on foot and has low base damage from regular mounted attacks. It's currently a pointless (ha ha) weapon as it doesn't really do anything well.

Lances look cool and thematic and all that, but they are best avoided for now.

[Helsing]

Likely because you are two-handing the naginata and one-handing the lance.

As the lance can't be two-handed, it's one of the weaker, if not the weakest cav weapon to charge with. It has no bonuses except for a little more damage, which you could just as well get from two-handing a better charge weapon. Sure, you get a shield, but I don't think the purpose of mounted cavalry in D&D, IRL, or anywhere was ever to tank damage.

This is a real shame, as the lance can't be used on foot and has low base damage from regular mounted attacks. It's currently a pointless (ha ha) weapon as it doesn't really do anything well.

Lances look cool and thematic and all that, but they are best avoided for now.

Totally agreed, I was very excited to make my first lance just to find out it's charge damage is exactly same as other weapon without any extra effect, and as you mentioned you cannot use it offmount. Hopefully we can get some uptune here, maybe make it works that you get much higher damage when charge with lance but get an additional chance to damage your weapon? They were one-time weapon in history when charging, likely to break but damage is devastating, but here i feel i'm poking someone with a chopstick

[Edens_Fall]

I found a WM Lance build did slightly higher charge damage (arnd 10 points) then say a Cav Hammer in my tests. AB and crit range were the same for both, though Lance gets a X4 crit that's damage is reduced somewhat by the last CAV update.

So you can still do a Lance build for CAV and get equal numbers or slightly better late game when compared to other 1H choices. It really just depends on what your trying to accomplish. You want a bit more damage or more AC/Saves?

Side Note: Lance was the OP choice but was nerfed after its power was realized.

[Helsing]

I found a WM Lance build did slightly higher charge damage (arnd 10 points) then say a Cav Hammer in my tests. AB and crit range were the same for both, though Lance gets a X4 crit that's damage is reduced somewhat by the last CAV update.

So you can still do a Lance build for CAV and get equal numbers or slightly better late game when compared to other 1H choices. It really just depends on what your trying to accomplish. You want a bit more damage or more AC/Saves?

Side Note: Lance was the OP choice but was nerfed after its power was realized.

Before nerf, cavalier only does 1 attack when charge, so it wouldn't suffer the x0.3-0.6 penalty as it is now. While after, if i read correctly, cavalier can do full attacks on charge round but the charge damge is only x0.3-0.6 of the real formula.

So before patch, if lance is 7*CL damage, and other is 6*CL, lance do 30 more damage, and now it's only 9-18 damage without any side effects like daze or bleeding. So I think a rebalance about lance might be reasonable.

And I still didnt get it why Naginata does same EXTRA charge damage as lance, its 3*CL * 0.3-0.6, so if i'm lv 13 it shall be far less than 50...

[Edens_Fall]

I never was good with "The MATHS" but I agree. As is, it's better to go with a sword for crit range and a hammer for stuns.

[Helsing]

More test on current charge system, now I just use charge as another smite-like ability now because I find out that I don’t need to move or wait 2 seconds for full potential.

Because even if I stands still and toggle it, my charge will do almost same damage as if I kit and charge. So I just use it as a faster smite now, doing steady extra 50 damage per 30 seconds is not bad at all

[Kenji]

We'll want to avoid making lance the BiS option in the general sense when spirited charging because that'd then shoehorn every single mounted cavalier into Lances and thus reduce build diversity. Instead of straight-up upgraded damage output or better CC chances, DC, etc., a different niche for lances should be introduced.

I'm thinking about removing CC and boosting damage slightly for piercing charges in general, letting slashing have the monopoly in dazing effect while introducing a chance to dismount mounted opponents when spirited charging with piercing polearms on. Lances will gain an extra chance to dismount opponents as its special niche.

On another note, the increased rate of duration loss for lances should be considered along with the above buff.

[Wrips]

I'm thinking about removing CC and boosting damage slightly for piercing charges in general, letting slashing have the monopoly in dazing effect while introducing a chance to dismount mounted opponents when spirited charging with piercing polearms on. Lances will gain an extra chance to dismount opponents as its special niche.

We need joust tournaments, Kenji. Ride+DEX+STR formula to unhorse someone with a lance.

DooEet!

[Helsing]

We'll want to avoid making lance the BiS option in the general sense when spirited charging because that'd then shoehorn every single mounted cavalier into Lances and thus reduce build diversity. Instead of straight-up upgraded damage output or better CC chances, DC, etc., a different niche for lances should be introduced.

I'm thinking about removing CC and boosting damage slightly for piercing charges in general, letting slashing have the monopoly in dazing effect while introducing a chance to dismount mounted opponents when spirited charging with piercing polearms on. Lances will gain an extra chance to dismount opponents as its special niche.

On another note, the increased rate of duration loss for lances should be considered along with the above buff.

Thanks for listening to feedback on cavalier, also i feel that i see no damage difference when I standing still and trigger Spirited Charge, or I move forth and back when using it. If this is a charge, shall move distance matters...? Otherwise to me this is just a better version of smite if we list the adv/disadv:

1) 120 charge damage VS 60 smtie damage(evil only);
2) 3 level in cavalier to get full damage potential VS 20 lvl in pally;
3) 1 feat required (mount combat) VS 5 feats required (extra smite + greater smiting I to IV);
4) 30 seconds cooldown VS 1min and half .
5) extra side effect like daze/bleeding VS nothing.
6) scales with WM VS not scales with WM.

I understand that smite is just part of paladin feature and charge is the core of cavalier, but with the listed difference between two ability, is either you gain too little from smite with 5 feats invested, or the current mechanism of charge is bit weird (you can use it standing still following full attacks without losing damage).

[Kenji]

Thanks for listening to feedback on cavalier, also i feel that i see no damage difference when I standing still and trigger Spirited Charge, or I move forth and back when using it. If this is a charge, shall move distance matters...? Otherwise to me this is just a better version of smite if we list the adv/disadv:

1) 120 charge damage VS 60 smtie damage(evil only);
2) 3 level in cavalier to get full damage potential VS 20 lvl in pally;
3) 1 feat required (mount combat) VS 5 feats required (extra smite + greater smiting I to IV);
4) 30 seconds cooldown VS 1min and half .
5) extra side effect like daze/bleeding VS nothing.
6) scales with WM VS not scales with WM.

I understand that smite is just part of paladin feature and charge is the core of cavalier, but with the listed difference between two ability, is either you gain too little from smite with 5 feats invested, or the current mechanism of charge is bit weird (you can use it standing still following full attacks without losing damage).

Good work on the comparison you've done there. However, the comparison between Divine Smite and Spirited Charge is not a fair one when only looking at their functions alone. Here's why:

• Divine Smite is available to mainly Divine classes: Paladin, Blackguard, Divine Champion, Warpriest with Good/Evil Domain, and eventually Liberator
• Spirited Charge is exclusively available to Cavaliers
• Paladins, Blackguard, and Divine Champions have other capabilities that fill out their kits beyond Divine Smite - Paladin's Holy Sword, Blackguard's Summon, Champion's Divine Wrath
• Cavaliers do not have other capabilities beyond QoL stuff such as consistent mount, fearless, weapon proficiency, and extra feats

Spirited Charge is the main feature for Cavaliers; Divine Smite is supplementary to classes that have it. You have also mentioned this, so let's build on that.

Class slots are a valuable resource, and so are character levels. By investing in Cavaliers, one gives up 1 class slot and several levels for its features. This warrants Spirited Charge being more powerful than Divine Smite.

A good counter-argument, as others and you have pointed out, is that one can dip 4 levels of cavaliers and obtain nearly the same power level of spirited charge compared to a 10-level cavalier. However, we should also note that this is only true for bludgeoning weapons, the differences will begin to show at the higher character level and other damage types/cav/non-cav weapons. (At least that is the intention here)

Let's take 26 Paladin 4 Cav, for example. The opportunity cost would be 3 levels in Rogue for Evasion, Tumble, and UMD. The Spirited Charge and Divine Smite share a cooldown and can not be used in tandem, but it does allow two of these powerful attacks to be used subsequently every round or so.

My take is they're in a good spot in design and function.

[Helsing]

I totally understand and agree your point, the one last concern is that it doesn’t feel like a charge currently, because from 30% to 60% max damage is only takes 2 seconds, one player can totally abuse it by triggering it between two flurry, and that’s how I’m using it right now. Click charge right after my attack so when my next attack comes, charge gets full 60% damage. Also sometimes I feel that it doesn’t take 2 seconds to get full, maybe there’s a bug.

To me, it just doesn’t feel like a charge at all because I don’t even need to move! Also I understand in mechanism side, it maybe hard to make it that you have to move around to make it work…

A possible solution I think is give it a longer time to reach max damage, so a player can have two choice, stand still and get a low charge damage, or kit and wait for a bigger hit. Maybe make it 30% - 100% charge damage but need 6 seconds to reach full? Not sure if this will make it too strong for pvp, but standing still charge just feels weird to me.