Invoker

[Purplemyst]

I don't know whether this is more of the question section or whether it's best here.

Why do invokers have both their focus meter and require spell components? Is the focus metre not similar in function to piety for divine casters? Though obviously it increases at a quicker rate, but certain spells also reduce it's focus at a higher rate.

Yes, invokers can go pure to get rid of the use of spell components, but it's at lvl 28 which sort of stops build variety.

Edit: Just wanted to add that to me with the way the class works and being able to to cast mostly at will, requiring components seems a little off brand.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

Invokers have a focus meter to replace spell slots, not components/peity.

[With Darkness and Silence]

It's not really a desirable level 28 option, that much is true.

[AstralUniverse]

LoL.

[Slapstick]

The fact that spell components is even a thing both baffles and annoys me greatly. Why do I have to farm sand and coal and greenstone in order to use the top 3 spell levels? What is gained by this? I think it's a rubbish design choice - with all due respect to the designers.

If it's for "balance" then I'm opposed to balancing around someone's bank account. If it's for immersion, it should cost a fraction and be purchasable from a common vendor.

Farming materials to use a full third of my class abilities, and its most interesting/powerful at that, feels like a real waste of time and a giant bother.

[Subtext]

Pretty much any class has to endure some sort of upkeep. Martial classes usually have to spend quite a bit on consumables that casters can often forego to a large extent.
The amount of inventory space alone spent on stuff like wands, potions etc alone can be infuriating.

Spell components are a *very* tame requirement in comparison.

[garrbear758]

Pretty much any class has to endure some sort of upkeep. Martial classes usually have to spend quite a bit on consumables that casters can often forego to a large extent.
The amount of inventory space alone spent on stuff like wands, potions etc alone can be infuriating.

Spell components are a *very* tame requirement in comparison.

This is relative privation.

[Scylon]

I wouldn't consider 400 gold per cast the same as 400-800 for a full run.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

I wouldn't consider 400 gold per cast the same as 400-800 for a full run.

agreed. I believe that's why this update was made:

[INVOKER - COMPONENTS]
> Eschew Material receives scaling:
CL 14..19 : Invoker has 50% to lower the component cost by 1 (i.e. 1 to 0, 2 to 1).
CL 20..27 : Invoker has 50% to lower the component cost by 1 and 25% to lower the component cost by an additional 1.
CL 28+ : Invoker does not consume components.

So in case you are using empowering vitriolic whatever lvl 7 spells instead of maximized lvl 6 spells, you can have a 50% chance to have no component cost. You can also metamagic lower lvl spells.

[Eyeliner]

It's funny, when I made a spellsword who couldn't make components and had to buy them from others I could never find a reliable source. PC stores have them sometimes but I think they get tired of the grind for not all that much profit quickly. At the same time when I've tried to sell them in a PC shop on different characters they never moved and just sat forever. Both are anecdotal of course but I wonder how they fit in the economy, I have the feeling the vast majority of component users make their own.

I'd like to be able to play and arcanist who didn't take alchemy/art to make components for variety sake if nothing else but it's difficult to rely on other players for something so crucial to a character, unless you're born into a tight trading guild crew or something I suppose. So an NPC who sold them, even for inflated prices, might be something welcome-- maybe they have to be tracked down like tinkers so they can't always be counted on but it would be something.

[The_Icelord]

So when are wizards getting their components reduced? last time I checked, we have to pay full cost and have no means whatsoever to reduce it.

[Arienette]

The existence of spell components seems to be a combination of RP flavor and a means of causing those casters to be a bit more restrained in the use of their most powerful spells.

I think it accomplishes this. Even as a caster who can make their own components, I will think twice about dropping a Time Stop on a boss, or using a Mords when a lesser breach will get the job done.

Wether this intended outcome is a good thing or not is another question.

[Brandon Steel]

To be honest I’ve totally stopped playing classes that rely on spell components at this point, which is a shame because I otherwise enjoy them.

[Naghast]

A reminder that divine casters do not use spell components for their spells, and that among arcane casters warlocks do not use spell components

[-XXX-]

The fact that Eschew Material even exists serves as proof that spell components are a poor design in general.

[Whosdis]

I've never enjoyed them but I get they wanted a gold sink.
I feel like they're just generally too fiddly. And people are correct that Warlocks and Clerics don't have this restriction (not that I would want to give them one.)
Invokers having their own resource management, however, does make me think that they shouldn't have components. They're using blood or residual energies or whatnot, those should be the components, and tying it to being an antidump mechanic is dreadful.

[Spriggan Bride]

Eschew Materials should just be an epic feat any arcanist can take. Maybe require 30+ spell craft or something. Lots would still elect not to use a feat on that and put up with components.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

Hot take - all spellcasters should have a spell component pouch in their inventory (yes, I'm looking at you, too, divine casters - ya'll get a lot of stuff that you can't use a holy symbol for), that they can purchase from any mage vendor for 3 GP. It should cover the components to most spells, and be small enough to pickpocket.

Spells over level 6 should automatically drain 200 gp per spell level over 6 from the caster when used, or some other 'balanced' amount of gold for specific spells, besides.

Rationale: Spell components are meant to be a method of advocating some restraint in your spell selection and a bit of a gold sink. The only thing this eliminates is a mandatory time sink necessary to play your full class kit- and as we all gain more responsibilities in our lives, time is the one thing you shouldn't have to give up in order to play. For some people, "maintenance" RP is fun, but there's nothing stopping them from still doing that.

Personally I would extend this thought process to repair kits, as well. In general, my sympathy goes out to anyone who has to spend real life hours tracking down supplies to use their class features; there's a very, very good reason this sort of thing is usually assumed to be handled during downtime.

[Naghast]

Let's not allow pickpocketing a mage's component pouch.
It'd be equivalent to pickpocketing ranged's ammo or charges off of a martial's weapon.
You wouldn't want to suddenly find your weapon drop from 17 charges to 1, or all your ammo gone.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

I am all for anyone being able to burn an epic feat for eschew materials. It impacts your min max build for QoL.

That being said, feel free to be a lvl 30 invoker with earth attunement and still reach 65 discipline.

[Slapstick]

I don't mind the gold tax (even though I think it's too high) as much as I mind the time tax. Running around gathering coal and greenstone in simply boring and takes away time I'd rather spend on other activities. If I could buy spell components for a reasonable price in a shop I'd have more track with it. And both options can be available at the same time.

There's already a limit on how many top level spells I can cast, due to spell slots or focus cost. There's a limit to refreshing the slots/focus in the rest system. Adding yet another restriction on the spell slots in terms of gold/time sink begrudges me.

[Eyeliner]

I don't mind the gold tax (even though I think it's too high) as much as I mind the time tax. Running around gathering coal and greenstone in simply boring and takes away time I'd rather spend on other activities. If I could buy spell components for a reasonable price in a shop I'd have more track with it. And both options can be available at the same time.

There's already a limit on how many top level spells I can cast, due to spell slots or focus cost. There's a limit to refreshing the slots/focus in the rest system. Adding yet another restriction on the spell slots in terms of gold/time sink begrudges me.

Yeah I doubt I'll ever play a components using character again, not because of the cost but how big of a PITA it is to grind greenstones and to craft them. I was finding myself bringing my laptop to work so I could log in every now and then to keep up. That was one of those "time to admit you have a problem" addiction moments.

[perseid]

Pretty much any class has to endure some sort of upkeep. Martial classes usually have to spend quite a bit on consumables that casters can often forego to a large extent.
The amount of inventory space alone spent on stuff like wands, potions etc alone can be infuriating.

Spell components are a *very* tame requirement in comparison.

Casters can forego certain consumables relatively safely but any Wizard I know worth their salt has at least 6-10 scroll stacks many of which are not cheap but which are an essential part of both conserving spell slots for pvp and expanding their offensive options during pvp. And that's on top of the usual essentials like Healing Draughts/Heal Pots, Haste pots for when caught unhasted, etc that other classes commonly carry. Sure, if a character just sticks to pve those things become less relevant but that's true for a wide variety of classes. That said, I always assumed spell components were less about balance and moreso a throwback to the spell component system (and pouches) of 3.x

[AstralUniverse]

The fact that Eschew Material even exists serves as proof that spell components are a poor design in general.

Or maybe Eschew Material is poor design, or used in the wrong way. I'd argue it should be removed or moved to lvl 28+ for all mage classes. The gold sink in components is quite necessary.

[ElvenEdibles]

Eschew Materials should just be an epic feat any arcanist can take. Maybe require 30+ spell craft or something. Lots would still elect not to use a feat on that and put up with components.

This