Slave Caller - Anyone can use

[Naghast]

Unfortunately it appears that this is yet another case of "this setting isn't fair and will never be".

[WanderingPoet]

Have you considered that the slave callers themselves are of dubious morality and don't give a damn who's using their services as long as they're getting paid?

That's a fair point in itself. Maybe the slave caller doesn't care to keep their job, or about their own health if someone finds out they aided a surfacer for coin.

I think the clearest way to make the point is - this is the equivalent of a drow/orog walking into Cordor to use the bank. It doesn't make any sense if they're being obvious about it; and it's ignoring NPCs like the guards; and the NPC would get in trouble if they did knowingly serve a monster (though arguably in this case they might just out of fear).

[Dreams]

Have you considered that the slave callers themselves are of dubious morality and don't give a damn who's using their services as long as they're getting paid?

That's a fair point in itself. Maybe the slave caller doesn't care to keep their job, or about their own health if someone finds out they aided a surfacer for coin.

I think the clearest way to make the point is - this is the equivalent of a drow/orog walking into Cordor to use the bank. It doesn't make any sense if they're being obvious about it; and it's ignoring NPCs like the guards; and the NPC would get in trouble if they did knowingly serve a monster (though arguably in this case they might just out of fear).

This is a different situation. Andunor is a trade city where people come to trade, and sometimes those people are from the Surface trading in slaves.

A Drow/Orog in Cordor seeking financial services doesn’t really fit, since they are monster races in a civilised surface settlement. (See: https://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Playing_any ... ster_races)

[WanderingPoet]

Have you considered that the slave callers themselves are of dubious morality and don't give a damn who's using their services as long as they're getting paid?

That's a fair point in itself. Maybe the slave caller doesn't care to keep their job, or about their own health if someone finds out they aided a surfacer for coin.

I think the clearest way to make the point is - this is the equivalent of a drow/orog walking into Cordor to use the bank. It doesn't make any sense if they're being obvious about it; and it's ignoring NPCs like the guards; and the NPC would get in trouble if they did knowingly serve a monster (though arguably in this case they might just out of fear).

This is a different situation. Andunor is a trade city where people come to trade, and sometimes those people are from the Surface trading in slaves.

A Drow/Orog in Cordor seeking financial services doesn’t really fit, since they are monster races in a civilised surface settlement. (See: https://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Playing_any ... ster_races)

I would argue that if this was accurate, then surfacers would be able to use the hub portal in Andunor. As it's locked down to just outcasts and monsters, this implies an expectation that surfacers are not expected to come down to go on shopping trips.

Of course, that doesn't mean they /can't/, but they should at least put some effort into not being detected in the city that makes them unwelcome.

Quoting Irongron

Exclusion is not reciprocal. Monster races are entirely unwelcome in civilised surface settlements, for reasons I should not need to explain here, while the Upperdark city of Andunor is criminal melting pot where a disparate and often nefarious range of races and creatures meet to trade and scheme. Any surfacer (especially the racial enemies of the natives - elves, dwarves and gnomes) are taking a terrible risk by braving the location, and should expect no rights, whatsoever, afforded by its laws. Nevertheless the locals are not fearful of them as monsters are viewed on the surface, rather something they are something to be exploited.

The best analogy would be visiting gang territory, or a non pirate in Totuga, unless you are prepared to make every effort to appear equally menacing you should expect the worst.

Owning property in Andunor should be restricted to UD start characters, and to break down other visitors by race...

Humans are relatively ubiquitous, and while subject to discrimination and oppression are likely to judged on their individual appearance and conduct.

Dwarves and elves should expect immediate hostility, be it deep suspicion or violent encounter. A long history of formal war with the UD powers coupled with racial enmity leaves very little room for any kind of tolerance.

Half orcs should expect to be largely overlooked, a lower class race, they are treated as such both on the surface and in the Underdark. Orogs are likely to expect deference and servitude from this race.

Gnomes are a curiosity, to most native races, who might seek to subjugate them based upon their outward weakness and small stature. The exception is the kobolds who will react to gnomes in a similar way as drow to the surface elves, though this conflict will be given scant attention by the other races.

Halflings, in the eyes of many Underdark races are obvious victims, and are likely to be treated as innocents who have unwittingly stumbled into a den of iniquity. Any halfling visiting Andunor will need to either be especially discreet, or to subvert the expectations that come alongside their race.

Exotic races, such as firbolgs, will likely be viewed as a valuable commodity, especially among slave traders keenly aware of how that rarity will translate to their price on the open market. They should expect to be subject to a great deal of unwanted attention in Andunor.

I would advise any surfacer intent on visiting Andunor to remember also that this is a starter city, and visiting in order to provoke PvP conflict through confrontational roleplay will likely be dealt with by our DM team. If any UD player bears witness to such behaviour I advise that they report it.

The post does agree with your opinion that it is a melting pot, but further defines the way they are treated by the locals. As noted above, dwarves, elves and gnomes should expect immediate hostility, and halflings should be especially discreet.

Walking up to an NPC that would be hostile to you, with -zero- effort to conceal yourself, to commit a hostile action on the property of Andunor? That's not something they'd help with in my opinion, and is against setting to even attempt.

[Sincra]

Your entire counter here is being made in bad faith, as if that person made no effort to conceal themselves and never will.

[Dreams]

I'm so confused. You've just quoted Irongron saying specifically "Exclusion is not reciprocal." You don't have to be an outcast to interact in the UD, you just need to be an outcast to mechanically interact with the UD settlement system.

The portal isn't even locked to UD-only races anymore.

[VibeKings]

I don't like threads like this, and to my feeling they happen with a depressing frequency lately: made in response to some perceived breach of conduct by another player or group of players, in the thin guise of "feedback on a system," when it's more honest to say that it's feedback on individuals within the community. There are proper channels to take up feelings like that.

[stoneheart-]

I don't like threads like this, and to my feeling they happen with a depressing frequency lately: made in response to some perceived breach of conduct by another player or group of players, in the thin guise of "feedback on a system," when it's more honest to say that it's feedback on individuals within the community. There are proper channels to take up feelings like that.

I agree, and I'm glad someone said something. These threads are really uncomfortable and weird because, even though I have no involvement with anything even remotely involving these situations, it's really obvious that's what is happening here by the language used. Please just report players if you feel there has been a breach of the rules instead of airing out dirty laundry on the forums.

[Watchful Glare]

Slave callers should only be usable by slavers themselves. It almost seems an oversight that it isn't like that.

[Morgy]

I don't like threads like this, and to my feeling they happen with a depressing frequency lately: made in response to some perceived breach of conduct by another player or group of players, in the thin guise of "feedback on a system," when it's more honest to say that it's feedback on individuals within the community. There are proper channels to take up feelings like that.

I agree, and I'm glad someone said something. These threads are really uncomfortable and weird because, even though I have no involvement with anything even remotely involving these situations, it's really obvious that's what is happening here by the language used. Please just report players if you feel there has been a breach of the rules instead of airing out dirty laundry on the forums.

As the OP, I would just like to clarify these are not fair or accurate comments to make. Providing feedback on systems that might be abused is not an unreasonable thing to post. In this case it is also about what feels like a strange use of a system in the IC world.

If nothing more, this topic offers a chance for a Dev to point out this is working as intended/oversight/needs examining.

I would also like to point out that these kind of comments both made are actually the same as what you’re pointing out as bad - not using the proper channels to report things and making judgements on the actions of others publicly. These assumptions just derail the thread further into unpleasantness.

I think enough arguments for both sides have been made and perhaps a mod/dm can lock the thread whilst the feedback is considered by those who have the power to decide on it.

Thanks!

[WanderingPoet]

Your entire counter here is being made in bad faith, as if that person made no effort to conceal themselves and never will.

Hi Sincra, I'd ask you to not be so hostile in your replies. Thre is no assumption here, nor bad faith, and an attack on my integrity was entirely uncalled for.

My entire arguement is that they /should/ make effort to conceal themselves. How you managed to get "They'll never conceal themselves" from that is baffling and frankly gaslighting.

I'm so confused. You've just quoted Irongron saying specifically "Exclusion is not reciprocal." You don't have to be an outcast to interact in the UD, you just need to be an outcast to mechanically interact with the UD settlement system.

The portal isn't even locked to UD-only races anymore.

You haven't read the other half of the post from Irongron then where he said an effort to be cautious and conceal should be done. Which is exactly what I said.

Good to know it's not locked to UD-only races anymore! I wasn't aware of this, and retract that part of my argument. It was a few years ago when I was playing a character that went below.

I don't like threads like this, and to my feeling they happen with a depressing frequency lately: made in response to some perceived breach of conduct by another player or group of players, in the thin guise of "feedback on a system," when it's more honest to say that it's feedback on individuals within the community. There are proper channels to take up feelings like that.

I agree, and I'm glad someone said something. These threads are really uncomfortable and weird because, even though I have no involvement with anything even remotely involving these situations, it's really obvious that's what is happening here by the language used. Please just report players if you feel there has been a breach of the rules instead of airing out dirty laundry on the forums.

Incorrect. Funny enough, people are allowed to have an opinion that differs from others without having a hidden agenda.

Not everyone is out to get you.

[Dreams]

Hey all!

I think it'd be a reasonable change if slave callers could only be spoken to by native Andunorians/outcasts. Currently, anyone from the surface can summon a slave to the pits, then massacre them without a chance to fight back. Now this makes sense for Andunorians to have this power over their slaves, but why does Elfy McElf, have the power to ask the drow slave caller to summon for him? I've seen cases of surface PCs doing this, simply to win pvp, and it's.. dubious behaviour at best.

Seems like this should have similar restrictions to the Hub/Trading Post/Treadstone Portals.

This was your feedback.

I don't like threads like this, and to my feeling they happen with a depressing frequency lately: made in response to some perceived breach of conduct by another player or group of players, in the thin guise of "feedback on a system," when it's more honest to say that it's feedback on individuals within the community. There are proper channels to take up feelings like that.

This is what VibeKings said about that feedback.

You haven't read the other half of the post from Irongron then where he said an effort to be cautious and conceal should be done. Which is exactly what I said.

I did read it, that's not what you said, it is what you're misconstruing.

[WanderingPoet]

You haven't read the other half of the post from Irongron then where he said an effort to be cautious and conceal should be done. Which is exactly what I said.

I did read it, that's not what you said, it is what you're misconstruing.

I'm so confused. You've just quoted Irongron saying specifically "Exclusion is not reciprocal." You don't have to be an outcast to interact in the UD, you just need to be an outcast to mechanically interact with the UD settlement system.

The portal isn't even locked to UD-only races anymore.

The post does agree with your opinion that it is a melting pot, but further defines the way they are treated by the locals. As noted above, dwarves, elves and gnomes should expect immediate hostility, and halflings should be especially discreet.

Walking up to an NPC that would be hostile to you, with -zero- effort to conceal yourself, to commit a hostile action on the property of Andunor? That's not something they'd help with in my opinion, and is against setting to even attempt.

Please reread what I said then.

...

Dwarves and elves should expect immediate hostility, be it deep suspicion or violent encounter. A long history of formal war with the UD powers coupled with racial enmity leaves very little room for any kind of tolerance.

....

Gnomes are a curiosity, to most native races, who might seek to subjugate them based upon their outward weakness and small stature. The exception is the kobolds who will react to gnomes in a similar way as drow to the surface elves, though this conflict will be given scant attention by the other races.

Halflings, in the eyes of many Underdark races are obvious victims, and are likely to be treated as innocents who have unwittingly stumbled into a den of iniquity. Any halfling visiting Andunor will need to either be especially discreet, or to subvert the expectations that come alongside their race.

This is the part I am refering to. I even directly reference the exclusion.

As multiple people have decided that there is nefarious motives here:

My simplified argument is thus: The surface races of elves, dwarves, gnomes and halflings should have to make efforts to conceal themselves to use Andunorian services.

That is all; nothing further. At this point I'm disengaging from the hostility and assumptive behaviour; if you're not going to read what is written then I have better things to do.

[-XXX-]

Arelith slave system track record:
Issues: 665 (+1 apparently)
Upsides: 0

Remove the slave system.

[Dreams]

My simplified argument is thus: The surface races of elves, dwarves, gnomes and halflings should have to make efforts to conceal themselves to use Andunorian services.

Ok, thanks for clarifying. What Sincra said was directly in reply to that point:

Your entire counter here is being made in bad faith, as if that person made no effort to conceal themselves and never will.

[Sincra]

Your entire counter here is being made in bad faith, as if that person made no effort to conceal themselves and never will.

Hi Sincra, I'd ask you to not be so hostile in your replies. Thre is no assumption here, nor bad faith, and an attack on my integrity was entirely uncalled for.

My entire arguement is that they /should/ make effort to conceal themselves. How you managed to get "They'll never conceal themselves" from that is baffling and frankly gaslighting.

Key difference in my posts is I was referring to a mechanically supported item, not something I am saying needs changing.
As for how I got to my reading of your post:

Of course, that doesn't mean they /can't/, but they should at least put some effort into not being detected in the city that makes them unwelcome.

Walking up to an NPC that would be hostile to you, with -zero- effort to conceal yourself, to commit a hostile action on the property of Andunor? That's not something they'd help with in my opinion, and is against setting to even attempt.

The two points made in that post use these as their final point.
Given this whole topic is about someone using the slavecaller and your directed assumption they didn't hide themselves in the above, it comes across as a shifted blame.

Doesn't seem like gaslighting to read your post and see these two end points.

[The GrumpyCat]

I feel this thread has played it's course. You've got a few answers here. Locking it.