Power Creep

[Rowlind Salem]

Someone I was talking to the other day called the server: World of WArelith, referring to the power creep they've noticed. Something about that kind of rung true.

For me, I notice it in the new weapons. Lots and lots of +4 weapons that are able to be crafted now. A year ago you either had to be a specific race, a full UMD investment and then some, or grab a club/trident and basin/rune it up.

I love the weapons but I think it would be better if they were only found in chests. I mean, these are objectively legendary weapons that people are churning out. Stuff that like, in a campaign you'd have to find some ancient smith that's been doing it for 500 years to make y'know? Joe Smith who's been on arelith for 30 IG days can make something better than like, the hellcrone axe that barbarian tribes had to sell their souls for?

I know for a fact I'm not the only one who feels this way but just starting the conversation.

[JustMonika]

Speaking as someone who has been here forever, I can certaintly attest we have come a very, very, very long way from the 'Low Magic' of the 'Old days'.

I'm not yet sure how I feel about it, but it's definately a thing.

[Good Character]

Beforehand race-specific weapons were made to either supplement a race with arguably worse stats than a human or a race that hardly saw play. Now, however, about every race has found at least a notable niche.

The issue with loot-based equipment is that BiS (best in slot) is now locked behind luck rather than work. This concept makes sense in campaigns because there's little to no PvP. However, persistent worlds, not just specifically Arelith, often use PvP as a conflict resolution.

I noticed you joined the forums in 2020, so I'll assume you joined Arelith about that time (I see the irony in my own forum join date). Until up to mid-2017 there used to be items called Artefacts. They were items that were eventually replaced with the Runic system. These items would be totally randomized in what stats they offered, but some were absolutely obscene. Due to this it felt completely unfair and difficult to find equal footing in PvP.

With all that being said, I am not against the idea of lootable BiS items. I have actually been an advocate for it a while. However, craftables should get very close to BiS (e.g. 1d4 bonus damage on a craftable vs. 1d6 on a lootable) so that they remain economically viable. These lootables should also be static, specific items unlike the artefacts of old. Though, IIRC Irongron's position on BiS lootables is that he's against them due to the fact that at the end of the day it makes the crafting system, a natural gold sink, obsolete.

[Helsing]

I'd rather the DMs add more unique items to the loot matrix secretly and wait us to discover. Not just some random stuffs.

[Twohand]

these are objectively legendary weapons that people are churning out.

No. The ones I added, most of them, are based on lore friendly +1 and +2 magical weapons. Yes, they are magical, special, and you won't see just anyone using them, but unlike the legendary weapons you speak of, which tend to be unique artifacts, these can be often found used by certain groups: Golden Axe of the Great Rift: high in demand in Underdark regions. Berserker Fang (Berserker Blade): witches of Rashemen make them for the Rashemaar barbarians. Elfblade: inspired by the longswords used by the old elven houses of Cormanthor. Justicar's Reach (Justice Blade): Many were made by the Church of Torm. In PnP, the requirements to make these items are nothing outlandish for Arelith characters. The original weapons I made all follow this same pattern.

If they are originally +1 and +2 weapons, why are they +4 here? I will speak for the weapons I added, and that's because of scimitars and falchions which, despite having no unique craftables, often remain the optimal choice in many builds because of their 18-20 critical range. If the Lawful Protector, Fiendish Reaver, the Nodachis, the Unfettering Edge, and etc didn't exist, guess the only weapon twohanded Hexblades, Barbarians and Arcane Marauders would be using right now? Ultimately, it's all about diversity. (and yeah, I don't like how the Orc Two-Bladed Sword is +4 and keen, and I still feel the Knight Commander Sabre is too strong)

If people think any of these weapons are bad for one reason or another, they should bring it up here in this forum with specific feedback. "This is bad because power creep" isn't very helpful.

[Richrd]

To address points brought up by the OP while avoiding potential drama-hotspots aka. commenting on posts by anyone else here.

1. Is Arelith very MMO-esque and has it become more so over the years? Yes.

2. Is there powercreep? Big, definitive yes.

3. Should these extremely powerful weapons be only found in chests? No.

4. Is this a conversation worth starting? No, not really. Arelith is a titanic cruiser when it comes to PW worlds, set for a very particular course and it won't change in the next couple of years unless the server owners have a very sudden and unexpected change of mind about all of this.

[Cutieriot]

Personally I like the new stuff. It adds a little color to a server I've played forever on. I am not against them being harder to create though.

[Dr. B]

Ah, this thread again. Sunrise, sunset.

[Kenji]

How will we get memes like this without all these new updates?



courtesy of Aevum on Discord

[Dreams]

Or memes like cav, right?

[Kenji]

It's okay, tell me which cav kb'd you and what nerfs you'd like to see on cavs

[AstralUniverse]

This thread is one of the Bingo threads, I'm pretty sure.

[Arienette]

While I “get” the perception of power creep in regards to weapons, i more so agree with what another poster said about diversity.

It gives the option to have a top tier weapon without the need to spend 500k+ gold on a keen madam weapon. Some of my characters will end up being bajillionaires and have a keen mdmam falchion/scimitar, hard 5 and/ or masterwork runed gear, etc. But not all of them will. It’s nice to have the option to grab Exotic proficiency and use a very good (and also cool!) cav sword, Nodachi, or what have you. It’s a much cheaper way to get a good “endgame” quality weapon for those characters/players who cannot easily scrape together a million gold.

In many ways the introduction of these items levels the playing field between “hardcore” players who have no issue amassing wealth and those more casual folks who are glad to have the option of a +4 Keen weapon for 150k gold.

[Rowlind Salem]

Beforehand race-specific weapons were made to either supplement a race with arguably worse stats than a human or a race that hardly saw play. Now, however, about every race has found at least a notable niche.

The issue with loot-based equipment is that BiS (best in slot) is now locked behind luck rather than work. This concept makes sense in campaigns because there's little to no PvP. However, persistent worlds, not just specifically Arelith, often use PvP as a conflict resolution.

I noticed you joined the forums in 2020, so I'll assume you joined Arelith about that time (I see the irony in my own forum join date). Until up to mid-2017 there used to be items called Artefacts. They were items that were eventually replaced with the Runic system. These items would be totally randomized in what stats they offered, but some were absolutely obscene. Due to this it felt completely unfair and difficult to find equal footing in PvP.

With all that being said, I am not against the idea of lootable BiS items. I have actually been an advocate for it a while. However, craftables should get very close to BiS (e.g. 1d4 bonus damage on a craftable vs. 1d6 on a lootable) so that they remain economically viable. These lootables should also be static, specific items unlike the artefacts of old. Though, IIRC Irongron's position on BiS lootables is that he's against them due to the fact that at the end of the day it makes the crafting system, a natural gold sink, obsolete.

NIce, my buddy Colt had an aretefact that I ended up buying. was gloves with +3 deflection. Thanks for the context yea I am pretty new around here.

[Rowlind Salem]

It's okay, tell me which cav kb'd you and what nerfs you'd like to see on cavs

IT WAS YOU *sobs*

No, I just wanted to take the temperature on the subject. I have my perceptions but I knew there was more to the story.

[I will never sleep]

I remember 2-3 years ago, 45 AB was considered middle of the pack. Average. Now it is on the extreme low end if you play a character that makes attack rolls. Times change, I guess.

[AstralUniverse]

Big thanks to the lore change really. No sarcasm.

The change from having to dip rogue/bard for umd into being able to go 25/5 fighter wm for example or 27 ranger 3 monk with quarterstaff raised the average ab to about 50, where I'd say it still is. Prior to that, 20/7/3 WMs had 49 ab. but soon after the lore change racial and craftable weapons +4 were not a problem at the time because they were still worse than rapier and quarterstaff in the same manner that +4 full plates and tower shields were introduced as an answer to a heavy dex meta. And here we are...