The Breedmaster/Breedmistress feedback and Pg-13 standard

[Peachoo]

Hello.

I have recently learned that a new dungeon was recently released involving a Breedmistress boss as a female equivalent to the Breedmaster in the orclands.

This is the second dungeon in the server that has been added that has a 'forced breeding' theme. I feel this is not only grossly irresponsible but also an extreme violation of the PG-13 server rule.

Players are not allowed to insinuate, participate, imply, or even talk about forced explicit themes/non-consensual themes IG. Talk like this results in *immediate bans*. And rightly so!! Survivors of this abuse play on this server, and they do not want to be retraumatized by experiencing it in their space that they come to- to relax and have fun.

I understand that these themes exist in 3.5 forgotten realms D and D. However, 3.5e was written in a time period where these *extremely sensitive* topics were often overlooked and it was considered 'okay' to write about such abuse. In a time period where it was considered socially okay to have racist/sexist themes written into your fantasy world.
However this is 2022. It is not okay anymore. And there is no excuse for themes that reflect IRL.

For what narrative purpose does there need to be dungeons where non-consent is implied and suggested heavily? There is no narrative purpose here. It doesn't need to be touched on. There is no answer or excuse that you could give here that justifies the implementation of explicit themes on a server where it is banned. We as adults already know how things 'repopulate'. We don't need an entire area dedicated to explaining how the orcs or the breedmistress 'repopulate'.

There are several areas or fixtures on this server that are frankly not PG-13 either. It's not just the breedmaster/breedmistress There are permanent fixture gravestones that talk about STDS that kill people in Cordor, or even use insensitive gender inclined verbage that would typically be banned.

Sibayad, specifically, is a bed of pg-13 rule violations. There is a female slave npc in Sibayad that wears revealing clothing that asks you what suggestive service you want when you click on her. And when you click again, she goes 'oh sorry, I can't. I'm owned already by a master'.
There's also that half-orc slave owner with numerous of half-nude female slaves in the Garden of Respite.

It has been ruled that Slave-master relationship rp is outlawed at consequence of immediate ban because it is a non-consensual relationship. (Which I agree heavily with)

I could go on. But I believe my points have been made on this end.

There is no excuse as to why these themes continue to exist and perpetuate on the server. All this does is imply to new players that this sort of behavior is okay and allowed on the server. It adds zero narrative contribution other than to suggest explicit themes that are banned from the server in the first place.

This sort of language is what children on this server are exposed to. Even if we're not talking about how this exposes trauma to victims of this form of abuse, we also must note how it exposes these themes to children who play on this server. When parents let their children play on this server, they expect that their children are not going to be exposed to inappropriate themes. What happens when a parent who has never played NWN finds their child completing 'Breedmaster' dungeons and starts pursuing legal litigation because the server was promised to be pg-13?

And frankly, I'm surprised I haven't seen anyone post about this before.

Adding a female version of the Breedmaster does not make the fact that it exists in the server any better in my opinion. This is not the gender equality I'm looking for in a role play server!

My feedback and opinion here is that the server area designs should adhere to the PG-13 rule, period. I strongly feel they should be removed and replaced with more sensitive pg-13 appropriate designs.

I am certain I am not alone in this either.

[Whosdis]

I remember helping people doing the Breedmaster quest, and I would get people that commented on it, either because they were so startled by the change in themery that they did not quite grasp it akin to a "WHAT are we doing?!", or to be smartasses taking advantage of the very loaded term that they otherwise couldn't use. Appropriately, my characters always dismissed any explanation and told them to just move on, since there's no way to really talk about it.

I always got the impression that NPC's like the ones in Sibayad and Dis were present to lend to certain themes and images. Certainly the players cannot be trusted, but I always got the impression that the module designers know what they are doing and that it's clever without being in-your-face. The slave in Sibayad is quite an odd choice, however.

[Peachoo]

I remember helping people doing the Breedmaster quest, and I would get people that commented on it, either because they were so startled by the change in themery that they did not quite grasp it akin to a "WHAT are we doing?!", or to be smartasses taking advantage of the very loaded term that they otherwise couldn't use. Appropriately, my characters always dismissed any explanation and told them to just move on, since there's no way to really talk about it.

I always got the impression that NPC's like the ones in Sibayad and Dis were present to lend to certain themes and images. Certainly the players cannot be trusted, but I always got the impression that the module designers know what they are doing and that it's clever without being in-your-face. The slave in Sibayad is quite an odd choice, however.

Generally I used to feel the same. I always thought "oh these are just very old areas from out-dated time periods. i'm sure the dev team will update these inappropriate themes when they get around to it"

But.. new dungeons have been introduced such as the Breedmistress. Which makes me feel that.. that is not the case.

Also, the Cordor graveyard was recently updated. It has the gravestones that talks about an STD killing a guy he got from his mistress and another that uses insensitive gender language.

But those gravestones... were left untouched.


Generally, I don't feel it's okay to perpetuate these things. If players aren't allowed to do this, then it needs to reflect with the areas and the team as well. Especially with those who have creative choice of the areas we play in. It's a double standard, I think, otherwise.

Also, it's just extremely uncomfortable- as you mentioned with the breedmaster area.

[AsteraceaeOculus]

I thought that the Breedmaster dungeon was an embarrassing artifact from a less regulated time on the Server, something that needed a face-lift to suit the modern Arelith, but the fact that a second non-consensual dungeon has been added so recently is strange. It doesn't fit in with the rules regarding sexual content, and it's not pg-13.
To add on to your point of the Forgotten Realms having these themes is the fact that the Forgotten Realms has been toned down before. For a more harmless example, The vast amount of Brothels on the maps given to TSR, Inc by Ed Greenwood were changed to "festhalls" in the publish releases of the setting. If something straight from the Forgotten realms creator can be toned down to be more PG-13 by the publisher, a server that is already committed to having a Pg-13 atmosphere can draw upon the vast amounts of other content in the Realms that are not content that some people may find so disturbing as it may be too close to real life crimes.

[Irongron]

I can't comment on the gravestones but the breeding of ogrillions (ogres and orcs) is very much part of FR lore, and there is nothing to suggest this is not consensual, it is also a core theme of Lord of the Rings, with Uruk-hai, being bred by Saruman from 'orcs and goblin-men'. I understand some players are offended? But frankly so am I if players are suggesting that by including this I'm somehow condoning sexual violence.

https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Uruk-hai#: ... nd%20faces.

Also in the forgotten Realms arranged partnership to preserve or strengthen celestial or Elven bloodlines is a common part of many cultures. Absolutely, in the contemporary world I find the practice pretty loathsome, but that doesn't seem to stop the English aristocracy.

Aside from the Mulhorandi, and the rest, even the drows origins are explained by selective breeding programs (check their wiki), but with orcs the whole thing especially pronounced, because ever since Tolkien (arguably) first invented them, the breeding of more ferocious kinds is very central to their lore, across many different RPGs and fantasy stories. In the case of the dungeon being discussed, ogrillions are literally that, a slave race, bred by their parent races, and used within the drow cities.

The Underdark is a horrible, horrible place and it's not, and never was about cutebolds falling in love or the steamy forbidden love of wide eyed drow-daughters.

[Peachoo]

I can't comment on the gravestones but the breeding of ogrillions (ogres and orcs) is very much part of FR lore, and there is nothing to suggest this is not consensual, it is also a core theme of Lord of the Rings, with Uruk-hai, being bred by Saruman from 'orcs and goblin-men'. I understand some players are offended? But frankly so am I if players are suggesting that by including this I'm somehow condoning sexual violence.

https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Uruk-hai#: ... nd%20faces.

Also in the forgotten Realms arranged partnership to preserve or strengthen celestial or Elven bloodlines is a common part of many cultures. Absolutely, in the contemporary world I find the practice pretty loathsome, but that doesn't seem to stop the English aristocracy.

To me the area doesn't really present this way, that it is consensual. Not only are orcs often subscribed to 'savage' ways, but there are breeding 'notes' in the chambers. It's very weird for something that is consensual to have... notes.... on such things. The breeding notes too don't do a lot to dispel the implication that it's not. The breeding notes talk about how orcs who are good in battle are 'rewarded for their efforts' by coming to 'chamber of conception'.

Now, I wasn't personally aware that half-orcs were explained as being taken from tolkien origin which implies that it is consensual.

However, just the way that this specific area is set up does not give me that notion. And, I am not alone. It's been brought up in ooc discussions before- and the majority consensus from what I have heard is in alignment with my opinion here. That it presents as something other than consensual.


However, this is not the only area which presents problems.

In Sibayad, there is a Courtesan npc that is female. She wears all white and is in scant clothing. When you talk to her, she says "You look like you have some coin to spend. Why not have some fun?'
When you click her again, she goes 'Oh sorry, I'm already owned by another'.
If you click her again she goes 'Looking for a good time?' with a suggestive voiceline.

Implying that not only is she a slave, but... yeah. Explicitly suggestive content.

Within the Garden of Respite, there is a Dwarven bather. On either side of him is a half-nude female elf and half-nude female human.
These female npcs have no name and are just labeled 'slave'.

When you click on them, they say the following:

[She winks and shakes her head dismissively] "I'm not here for your Madam"

---------

Basically this isn't really just 1 problem area. It's a handful of things. Even if it's not supposed to be this way, that is how it's presented to people who are experiencing them. You are the first person, genuinely, who has told me that you perceive this Breedmaster area in that way.

I am not trying to insult you here. I appreciate everything you do for the server, and I know you are not being paid to put so much time into this server. I really do appreciate that. I'm just trying to provide constructive feedback and criticism for something that is majorly perceived this way.

I just really believe that these areas need to be addressed, because as a player- they make me uncomfortable. And that could mean anything, it could mean adding things to the area to better imply that it is consensual. Or maybe just removing the implication of sexual content period. I don't know. I just feel it isn't okay the way it is now.



Edit: the Gravestone is a poem that talks about how a man died because his mistress gave him a disease. I can't remember the exact words. The other one uses the W curse word which is, in my opinion, offensive.

[Griefmaker]

Sorry Irongron, but this is a HUGE "no-no" per Arelith rules and I had a character banned for 3 months 4ish years ago due to simply my character and another speaking about the topic of monsters during an informative presentation at the Arcane Tower and how some are forcibly bred.

The admin upheld the ban too when I questioned it (especially since there was no warning just a request to be pulled into the DM room and told "This is not allowed, it is a part of the rules and has been for years, you are now subject to a 3 month ban and are free to appeal if you feel it is erroneous") and showed that there was no descriptive discussion or the like! Simply indirectly implying "rape" on Arelith per the DM team and admin was not allowed due to the PG-13 nature of Arelith. When I was allowed back, before I would be unbanned I had to promise to never again have my characters even insinuate it lest my account be banned permanently despite me pointing to the Breedmaster as a far more overt message of forced breeding than anything my character said ICly during that Monster Presentation.

Now personally? I have no issue what so ever and believe that FR lore should be kept intact, but unless things have changed over the years this is indeed a topic characters cannot delve into under threat of bans and should not be a part of the game itself. But then again, my personal opinions are that the PG-13 rule is horribly flawed and outdated and WAY too selectively adhered to.

If things have changed, then good! Back when I was banned, though, the response was that players could not be controlled and whilst some might delve into a topic tastefully and respectfully, many would not (something I agree with).

However, having something be an actual part of the module will get comments both tasteful and respectful and others not and that is a really bad slippery slope to introduce.

[Security_Blanket]

Edited by MoonMoon:
Please be mindful on how you are speaking on the forum, this post was not constructive to the conversation, and seemed rather rude.

[Whosdis]

Sorry Irongron, but this is a HUGE "no-no" per Arelith rules and I had a character banned for 3 months 4ish years ago due to simply my character and another speaking about the topic of monsters during an informative presentation at the Arcane Tower and how some are forcibly bred.

Now personally? I have no issue what so ever and believe that FR lore should be kept intact, but unless things have changed over the years this is indeed a topic characters cannot delve into under threat of bans and should not be a part of the game itself. But then again, my personal opinions are that the PG-13 rule is horribly flawed and outdated and WAY too selectively adhered to.

If things have changed, then good! Back when I was banned, though, the response was that players could not be controlled and whilst some might delve into a topic tastefully and respectfully, many would not (something I agree with).

However, having something be an actual part of the module will get comments both tasteful and respectful and others not and that is a really bad slippery slope to introduce.

This is pretty on-point with how I feel about the subject. On the one hand, lore is lore, but on the other it's a very strange thing to textually walk on eggshells for an in-game quest (and now the inclusion of a second one).

I've generally never had a problem with gully themes, as long as they're taking to seriously, and obviously the server has to curate the rules on top of that as no one wants underwear-wearing characters running around Cordor or Andunor, which I 100% agree with, I came from another server that relaxed its rules on that sort of RP and it was a very bad move, but before was generally more relaxed with generally dark themery which I think worked out well in contrast to the PG-13 adherance. It's not so much the content itself that I object to in terms of these quests, but mentioned above, it's awkward. Some people like to RP during quests and the like, talk about the setting (as a big Elf weabo I always talk about the High Forest and Ascal's Horn when we hit the 9th Legion Citadel), but how can one do that in relation to these quests?

It's just a bit odd. Again though, I think the content is alright itself, and it's just something I accept in that we shouldn't talk about it because the players can't be trusted.

[DM Monkey]

I think there are probably better things to be worrying about than names of NPCs or slaves in a Sibayadi bathhouse. Rather than arguing about this, please pop up a Bug Report here: viewforum.php?f=12 Make sure to include specifics about NPCs or dialogue options that you find problematic. This will help the team narrow it down and take care of anything that seems inappropriate for the server.

[Irongron]

Griefmaker, I can't comment on any previous ban you had, partly because it isn't server policy, but also because I know absolutely nothing about it. I can repeat that making reference to the selective breeding practiced by cultures across the Forgotten Realms by no means implies this is non-consensual, and I would definitely be decidedly uncomfortable about any in game explicit reference to sexual violence of any kind.

Peachoo, I share some of the distaste you expressed regarding some NPCs and texts, though not all, and not all I'm familiar with. I do think, however that a lot of fantasy RP, and especially the Forgotten Realms with its ham-fisted and frequently offensive (obvious) representations of existing RL nations and cultures, relies on RPing within a faux historical setting, often containing references to controversial issues, Be it the slavery of Conan, the racial stereotypes of Star Trek or the Space Nazis of Star Wars. Taken in a certain light, all of this is most definitely offensive. Thankfully there is hope, as the NwNVault contains My Little Pony skins through which we can, if needs be, reinvent the setting.

Jokes aside it is not my intention to offend, and I may revisit some of the issues mentioned here.