-Head would be improved by being limited and on CD

[perseid]

I think -head would be more generally useful if its self-customization period was modified to last only a short time (maybe a minute or a few minutes) but was given a cooldown of three or four hours similar to it's countdown period. The reasoning for this suggestion is that I've noticed a lot of instances of people treating removal of a character's helmet as equivalent to beating their disguise check and while I know this is against the rules and should be reported I don't know that current enforcement is quelling the problem nor do I necessarily think more enforcement would resolve it because I don't believe it stems from bad sportsmanship or anything like that. I think a lot of these sorts of things happen because of confusion over WYSIWYG. Allowing players to change their head model once every few hours would help mitigate this problem and I feel that with a sufficiently long cd to act as a time gate the abusability of the command would be mitigated to a large degree.

[Zavandar]

I agree with everything here except I absolutely think it stems from bad sportsmanship.

[Morgy]

If someone doesn’t beat your disguise check, then you need to report it. That’s simply a rule break.

Changing your head when you want, when you are not disguising, would be an unfair boost to people without any investment to disguise.

If you’re committing crimes/spying, you should probably be disguised and have your head covered. If someone removes your head cover, and now sees what your PC looks like, that is a fair result of investigative RP.

Most players have common head models with plain hair colours. If you opt for an eye patch and pink hair, you’re choosing to be a highly distinguishable character, which has its ups and downs.

Fiddling with WYSIWYG too much in only some cases is going to make the rules a lot harder to follow, because it wouldn’t apply across the board.

If you’re about to be exposed, you can always RP fleeing from the area before you have to, if you’re somewhere you don’t want to be exposed. However, what I have done is my experience is emote when I remove my hood, saying what appearance my pc currently has if in disguise.. this just adds some flavour and is optional, because the rules are that if your disguise is unbroken and not recognised from another encounter, your true identity is protected.

[perseid]

If someone doesn’t beat your disguise check, then you need to report it. That’s simply a rule break.

Changing your head when you want, when you are not disguising, would be an unfair boost to people without any investment to disguise.

If you’re committing crimes/spying, you should probably be disguised and have your head covered. If someone removes your head cover, and now sees what your PC looks like, that is a fair result of investigative RP.

Most players have common head models with plain hair colours. If you opt for an eye patch and pink hair, you’re choosing to be a highly distinguishable character, which has its ups and downs.

Fiddling with WYSIWYG too much in only some cases is going to make the rules a lot harder to follow, because it wouldn’t apply across the board.

If you’re about to be exposed, you can always RP fleeing from the area before you have to, if you’re somewhere you don’t want to be exposed. However, what I have done is my experience is emote when I remove my hood, saying what appearance my pc currently has if in disguise.. this just adds some flavour and is optional, because the rules are that if your disguise is unbroken and not recognised from another encounter, your true identity is protected.

Reporting a rulebreak only does so much when the character who was metagamed has to rp the consequences regardless of the outcome ruled afterwards. Further, by your own argument I don't know that I see the actual boost in play. If someone beats the disguise check they will still know that it's my character and be able to act accordingly regardless of my head model.

The rest of your points illustrate what I'm talking about though. The issue has largely evolved to "Head Model = You" for many players. If I have an eyepatch on my head model but you didn't beat my disguise check the assumption should be that there's an element of the disguise concealing the shortcoming of the headmodel.

I don't really understand at all how this makes the rules harder to follow either. If anything, since beating the disguise check clearly reveals a person's identity, it seems like it can only make it easier to follow the rules. Especially in an environment where there's obviously a large amount of confusion in play.

[Morgy]

Having to deal with the consequences of a rule break is not exclusive to this kind of metagaming. Same goes for PvP rule breaks, thefts and scrying without IC knowing a name. These can all punch holes in plots, but theres not much we can do but encourage against it and hope the DMs investigate it.

Whether someone knows OOC who your PC actually is, is largely irrelevant. It’s another rule we all must abide by, and do. I get there is the odd case of rule breaking, but for instance I know many people recognise your current PC a lot ooc, but leave him be without the break. Those who don’t are an unfortunate minority and personally do not warrant allowing people to just switch head models.

If it were possible to tie a head model to a disguise? That id be on board for.. but only if it remains for disguise periods only.

[chris a gogo]

I don't get the issue here.

If you haven't beaten the disguise skill then you have seen the face of someone's disguise, not what they look like normally, once the roll is beaten then they know who it is and if they catch the same character again and again beat it's disguise skill then they know the character regardless of any OOC cosmetic change made by the player using the -head command.

[perseid]

Having to deal with the consequences of a rule break is not exclusive to this kind of metagaming. Same goes for PvP rule breaks, thefts and scrying without IC knowing a name. These can all punch holes in plots, but theres not much we can do but encourage against it and hope the DMs investigate it.

Whether someone knows OOC who your PC actually is, is largely irrelevant. It’s another rule we all must abide by, and do. I get there is the odd case of rule breaking, but for instance I know many people recognise your current PC a lot ooc, but leave him be without the break. Those who don’t are an unfortunate minority and personally do not warrant allowing people to just switch head models.

If it were possible to tie a head model to a disguise? That id be on board for.. but only if it remains for disguise periods only.

I don't see how this is a counterargument to my point though? The point of this feedback was to suggest a change to an existing system to help reduce instances of a particular kind of metagaming.

[Morgy]

Having to deal with the consequences of a rule break is not exclusive to this kind of metagaming. Same goes for PvP rule breaks, thefts and scrying without IC knowing a name. These can all punch holes in plots, but theres not much we can do but encourage against it and hope the DMs investigate it.

Whether someone knows OOC who your PC actually is, is largely irrelevant. It’s another rule we all must abide by, and do. I get there is the odd case of rule breaking, but for instance I know many people recognise your current PC a lot ooc, but leave him be without the break. Those who don’t are an unfortunate minority and personally do not warrant allowing people to just switch head models.

If it were possible to tie a head model to a disguise? That id be on board for.. but only if it remains for disguise periods only.

I don't see how this is a counterargument to my point though? The point of this feedback was to suggest a change to an existing system to help reduce instances of a particular kind of metagaming.

Because I think giving people control over changing their appearance of the model, at will, without being tied to certain skills/races, is open to more exploitation. The fact is a lot of players don’t even use description as and we have to rely on their model for descriptions. If they can now change every feature, there is zero way to combat this. That is more concerning to me.

[perseid]

Having to deal with the consequences of a rule break is not exclusive to this kind of metagaming. Same goes for PvP rule breaks, thefts and scrying without IC knowing a name. These can all punch holes in plots, but theres not much we can do but encourage against it and hope the DMs investigate it.

Whether someone knows OOC who your PC actually is, is largely irrelevant. It’s another rule we all must abide by, and do. I get there is the odd case of rule breaking, but for instance I know many people recognise your current PC a lot ooc, but leave him be without the break. Those who don’t are an unfortunate minority and personally do not warrant allowing people to just switch head models.

If it were possible to tie a head model to a disguise? That id be on board for.. but only if it remains for disguise periods only.

I don't see how this is a counterargument to my point though? The point of this feedback was to suggest a change to an existing system to help reduce instances of a particular kind of metagaming.

Because I think giving people control over changing their appearance of the model, at will, without being tied to certain skills/races, is open to more exploitation. The fact is a lot of players don’t even use description as and we have to rely on their model for descriptions. If they can now change every feature, there is zero way to combat this. That is more concerning to me.

I didn't say at will though. I suggested a short time period to allow calibration followed by a cooldown lasting multiple irl hours. I don't know how to reply to the rest of this post because it doesn't really negate that these people can still be identified either by their character name or by beating their disguise check. I'd also point out that although you said other methods of metagaming such as in pvp have to be adapted to, we've seen mechanical solutions to abuses in these arenas too such as the change to transitions.

[Morgy]

I don't see how this is a counterargument to my point though? The point of this feedback was to suggest a change to an existing system to help reduce instances of a particular kind of metagaming.

Because I think giving people control over changing their appearance of the model, at will, without being tied to certain skills/races, is open to more exploitation. The fact is a lot of players don’t even use description as and we have to rely on their model for descriptions. If they can now change every feature, there is zero way to combat this. That is more concerning to me.

I didn't say at will though. I suggested a short time period to allow calibration followed by a cooldown lasting multiple irl hours. I don't know how to reply to the rest of this post because it doesn't really negate that these people can still be identified either by their character name or by beating their disguise check. I'd also point out that although you said other methods of metagaming such as in pvp have to be adapted to, we've seen mechanical solutions to abuses in these arenas too such as the change to transitions.

Tools have been put in place for other abuses, yes, but they don’t visually change your character in an IC way.. they are OOC notifications or mechanical limitations.

I’m not sure how I can better explain myself, other than repeating I think this would be misused and currently we have an OOC notification already to deal with rulebreakers. Whether you change your head or not really wont make much difference to someone wanting to cheat. Ill just leave it at that

[perseid]

Because I think giving people control over changing their appearance of the model, at will, without being tied to certain skills/races, is open to more exploitation. The fact is a lot of players don’t even use description as and we have to rely on their model for descriptions. If they can now change every feature, there is zero way to combat this. That is more concerning to me.

I didn't say at will though. I suggested a short time period to allow calibration followed by a cooldown lasting multiple irl hours. I don't know how to reply to the rest of this post because it doesn't really negate that these people can still be identified either by their character name or by beating their disguise check. I'd also point out that although you said other methods of metagaming such as in pvp have to be adapted to, we've seen mechanical solutions to abuses in these arenas too such as the change to transitions.

Tools have been put in place for other abuses, yes, but they don’t visually change your character in an IC way.. they are OOC notifications or mechanical limitations.

I’m not sure how I can better explain myself, other than repeating I think this would be misused and currently we have an OOC notification already to deal with rulebreakers. Whether you change your head or not really wont make much difference to someone wanting to cheat. Ill just leave it at that

The key part of this, as I said in my original post, is that I don't think a lot of these rulebreaks are intentional though. I think they're a result of people not realizing they're metagaming based on head model which my solution fixes. I agree that it's much more difficult to stop a purposeful cheater but at the same time I still don't know if I understand how you feel it could be misused under the changes I've proposed since they aren't at-will as you suggested.

[Morgy]

Because the player can change it, so it is at their own will. It also doesn’t make IC sense for a head to only change for a few minutes? And if its longer than that, thats when it ends up becoming very powerful.

I don’t think I recall many/any cases of people saying a head model is the same, when they haven’t broken a disguise. Not saying it hasn’t happened, but as a current pc official in the busiest surface city and having recently rolled a disguise-based andunorian, I have never observed this. I don’t see how anyone can be legitimately confused by thinking they can break a disguise, when the OOC notification tells them they haven’t .. unless they are brand new, in which case I doubt they are that involved yet.

[perseid]

Because the player can change it, so it is at their own will. It also doesn’t make IC sense for a head to only change for a few minutes? And if its longer than that, thats when it ends up becoming very powerful.

I don’t think I recall many/any cases of people saying a head model is the same, when they haven’t broken a disguise. Not saying it hasn’t happened, but as a current pc official in the busiest surface city and having recently rolled a disguise-based andunorian, I have never observed this. I don’t see how anyone can be legitimately confused by thinking they can break a disguise, when the OOC notification tells them they hasn’t.. unless they are brand new, in which case I doubt they are that involved yet.

I think I failed to clearly explain the point of the short window for the head being able to be changed. I agree there are more elegant ways it could work but the current -head command allows a time window in which the head model can be shifted around. I was suggesting this as a modification to -head under the (perhaps mistaken) belief it would save developer labor. The minutes long window is to simply allow time for the desired head model to be selected which is why it was suggested to be a very brief window followed by a long cooldown period.

[Morgy]

If this was tied to disguises mechanically, I think it could work.. or something like ESF bluff/perform, or even having a certain level of disguise skills.

I certainly don’t disagree disguise could use some further elegance, assuming thats even possible with the game. Disguise kits that degrade over time might be an option? .

My other thought is that by allowing -head changes, it sort of could encourage the incorrect assumption that if someone *doesn’t* change their head model, then it’s okay to ignore their disguise existing. Thats what I meant by causing a blurring of lines too.

On the whole I do like this concept as a standalone idea, but it’s kind of presented as a fix to an ooc problem, but which also comes with its own problems.

Disguise is a really difficult to balance tool.. it could either be too easy to beat with small changes, or alternatively enable a PC to wreak havoc simply by having untouchable bluff or perform. I’m wary about any changes to it for that reason, even if your idea is a good one.

[stoneheart-]

I think this should just be available to people. Not even just for disguises but just because asking DMs every time your character gets a haircut is a bit cumbersome. I think saying this is exploitable is a bit seeing ghosts where there are none (just, you know, report people who are dinguses about it as has been said), but maybe a middle ground is making a head change something that can be applied for with a support ticket, bringing -head off cooldown upon approval. That makes it more accessible whilst making sure it's moderated.

[perseid]

I think this should just be available to people. Not even just for disguises but just because asking DMs every time your character gets a haircut is a bit cumbersome. I think saying this is exploitable is a bit seeing ghosts where there are none (just, you know, report people who are dinguses about it as has been said), but maybe a middle ground is making a head change something that can be applied for with a support ticket, bringing -head off cooldown upon approval. That makes it more accessible whilst making sure it's moderated.

Ironically my original idea was a suggestion for npcs that can give "haircuts". This would have the advantage of preventing scenarios involving using the command on the fly rather than pre-emptively. But that was much more in Suggestion territory than Feedback territory.

[The GrumpyCat]

There arn't any plans to allow players to change their heads more often for the reasons that Morgy mostly laid out.

Honestly I susspect people who were metagaming heads in the disguise rules now, would continue to do so anyway - even if we did allow more common head-changes. If you encounter this please do report this, and we will set the person streight. Unless your PC is particularly distinguishable via appearence (If you've chosen one with neon blue hair, for example) that is something the other pc is specifically looking out for - then unless -disguise is broken, it doesn't matter if you're helmed/hooded or what not - the other PC should not recognise/be susspicious of you.

There are/were vauge ideas of implementing a hair dying system, so that might happen however. But nothing for heads at present.

[Eyeliner]

Maybe you could be able to change your hair color if you have high enough disguise score. That would go a long way and not affect the characters face.

[perseid]

There arn't any plans to allow players to change their heads more often for the reasons that Morgy mostly laid out.

Honestly I susspect people who were metagaming heads in the disguise rules now, would continue to do so anyway - even if we did allow more common head-changes. If you encounter this please do report this, and we will set the person streight. Unless your PC is particularly distinguishable via appearence (If you've chosen one with neon blue hair, for example) that is something the other pc is specifically looking out for - then unless -disguise is broken, it doesn't matter if you're helmed/hooded or what not - the other PC should not recognise/be susspicious of you.

There are/were vauge ideas of implementing a hair dying system, so that might happen however. But nothing for heads at present.

Understandable. Even just hair dye would be a large improvement imo and a bit fun for people cosmetically I imagine.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

I would love this idea to be implemented and the whole 'have to be break disguise or ignore WYSIWYG' rule to be removed. People are allowed to falsely guess/assume wrong things. I can call mr. bob, mr. joe without even having them remove their helmet and also be completely wrong in doing so because my character could just be an idiot calling people by the wrong name all the time. There is no true litmus test of metagaming here and it's a horrible weird ruling that goes against WYSIWYG.

Like what if a player thinks the person who removed same helmet was wearing their exact same outfit that they saw earlier (but is mistaken in such) and that was the only reason they were able to make the guess of it being said character without breaking the disguise? it is horribly awkward ruling IMO that exists because of engine limitations and not wanting to give disguises more leeway. Yet we have have shapeshifting race that can change heads.

I would rather give head changing into the hands of disguisers for their 'disguising/altering their face' so that no one can accuse anyone of metagaming because if a player OOC recognizes your character without breaking your disguise, then something about the way you RP or your appearance gave it away which makes them having grounds for them IC recognizing you. We don't allow PCs to intimidate/persaude other PC based off skill checks but now players have to completely ignore common sense bassed of a skill check? Sounds like rollplay instead of roleplay.

[Morgy]

I would love this idea to be implemented and the whole 'have to be break disguise or ignore WYSIWYG' rule to be removed. People are allowed to falsely guess/assume wrong things. I can call mr. bob, mr. joe without even having them remove their helmet and also be completely wrong in doing so because my character could just be an idiot calling people by the wrong name all the time. There is no true litmus test of metagaming here and it's a horrible weird ruling that goes against WYSIWYG.

Like what if a player thinks the person who removed same helmet was wearing their exact same outfit that they saw earlier (but is mistaken in such) and that was the only reason they were able to make the guess of it being said character without breaking the disguise? it is horribly awkward ruling IMO that exists because of engine limitations and not wanting to give disguises more leeway. Yet we have have shapeshifting race that can change heads.

I would rather give head changing into the hands of disguisers for their 'disguising/altering their face' so that no one can accuse anyone of metagaming because if a player OOC recognizes your character without breaking your disguise, then something about the way you RP or your appearance gave it away which makes them having grounds for them IC recognizing you. We don't allow PCs to intimidate/persaude other PC based off skill checks but now players have to completely ignore common sense bassed of a skill check? Sounds like rollplay instead of roleplay.

Regarding your last point..

If you guess a PC is in disguise based on their behaviour/comments they make, your PC is free to accuse them. I.e. doing nothing to change their outfit or making a comment that such-and-such would usually say. RPing can lead to these guesses, so long as you have an IC reason to heavily suspect them.

Disguise check doesn’t stop you RPing like that.. it stops you seeing a person walk past and accusing them of disguising themselves without even interacting first.

As the disguised: Change your appearance, examine information and behaviour, when disguised.

As the other: Ignore the “”s, let the disguised do their thing if you don’t break them and only ‘suspect’ an impersonator if its glaringly obvious (which may be easier it they are, for example, trying to pretend to be your mother and keep getting your birthday wrong).

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

I would love this idea to be implemented and the whole 'have to be break disguise or ignore WYSIWYG' rule to be removed. People are allowed to falsely guess/assume wrong things. I can call mr. bob, mr. joe without even having them remove their helmet and also be completely wrong in doing so because my character could just be an idiot calling people by the wrong name all the time. There is no true litmus test of metagaming here and it's a horrible weird ruling that goes against WYSIWYG.

Like what if a player thinks the person who removed same helmet was wearing their exact same outfit that they saw earlier (but is mistaken in such) and that was the only reason they were able to make the guess of it being said character without breaking the disguise? it is horribly awkward ruling IMO that exists because of engine limitations and not wanting to give disguises more leeway. Yet we have have shapeshifting race that can change heads.

I would rather give head changing into the hands of disguisers for their 'disguising/altering their face' so that no one can accuse anyone of metagaming because if a player OOC recognizes your character without breaking your disguise, then something about the way you RP or your appearance gave it away which makes them having grounds for them IC recognizing you. We don't allow PCs to intimidate/persaude other PC based off skill checks but now players have to completely ignore common sense bassed of a skill check? Sounds like rollplay instead of roleplay.

Regarding your last point..

If you guess a PC is in disguise based on their behaviour/comments they make, your PC is free to accuse them. I.e. doing nothing to change their outfit or making a comment that such-and-such would usually say. RPing can lead to these guesses, so long as you have an IC reason to heavily suspect them.

Disguise check doesn’t stop you RPing like that.. it stops you seeing a person walk past and accusing them of disguising themselves without even interacting first.

As the disguised: Change your appearance, examine information and behaviour, when disguised.

As the other: Ignore the “”s, let the disguised do their thing if you don’t break them and only ‘suspect’ an impersonator if its glaringly obvious (which may be easier it they are, for example, trying to pretend to be your mother and keep getting your birthday wrong).

So, where do we draw the line if it was their behavior or their face that allowed me to be free to accuse them? Especially if I am an intuitive thinker and don't consciously remember outfits of other people and just have a sense of things (IMO if i can guess who you are without breaking your disguise, then you haven't done enough to hide who you are. This would be simple/clear cut for me, except now i have to somehow not factor seeing their face. Even though that is how i recognize people in real life, not their clothes. and I do it all on a subconcious level).

Like the situations I am frustrated with are not some person trying to pull off a stunt disguised. It's social unmasked alternate long term aliases where only their clothes have really changed (like normal people were) and I just want to go up and talk to them, etc because my character is seeking them out for friendly purposes. It's the point where I just feel obliged to no interact with disguised people. Because we have a rule against nicknames, but not against alternate aliases. And since you can just change your clothes and be an alternate alias, you can effectively just chill disguised all the time for piety gains without really changing your roleplay that much. Especially if you make the alias your most used identity.

[riffraff]

I'm gonna be honest, it's this kind of confusion between IC vs OOC notifications vs WYSIWYG that prompted me to make my thread asking about covered disguises. The WYSIWYG rule causes me a lot of confusion because it's true... until it isn't. Like not taking server notices IC is true... until it isn't.

If recognising clothes and mannerisms is okay, I can see why and how someone seeing a disguised character's face would make them think they can recognise them. Because there's a disparity between mechanics ("I am disguised and your roll hasn't beaten the DC") and WYSIWYG ("I'm wearing the same clothes I always wear, acting the same way I always do, speaking as I usually do and have the same face that you can now see"). Compared to the simplicity of stealth ("I've seen you so my character has seen you"). I've also seen a couple of instances of people using disguises with names that are basically their normal character names but slightly changed and I have no idea if they're intending this as a nickname (i.e. a way it's unintended to be used) or just trying to be funny with the "name" of their disguise (after all, the name is OOC and not something my character can see)...

It's all well and good asking people to use their best judgment, but one person's isn't necessarily going to be the same as another's and it doesn't mean they're deliberately metagaming if they think "well, I haven't beaten the check, but I've seen their face and I've seen it a hundred times undisguised, so I surely know who they are!" especially if recognising other things is acceptable.

It makes sense that disguise as a mechanic is covering things that the engine isn't showing - like subtle mannerisms or makeup on the model - but the problem then is all of the above. If it covers mannerisms, surely recognising those is metagaming as much as recognising a face? All this leaves me cross-eyed.

[The GrumpyCat]

Ultimatly best judgement is what we have to ask for - because whilst indeed you shouldn't be able to recognise someone if they have disguise up (and you don't break that disguise) It's also unfair to say that Bob the Tiefling with the Neon Blue Hair and Horns and Distinctive Purple Outfit should walk in front of the guards and yell 'YES I AM BOB THE TIEFLING! BUT I'M DISGUISED SO YOU CAN'T TELL MWHAHAHA'

So my advice is two fold:

For those trying to Break Disguise: Be kind. Don't Play To Win. Give people leeway. Nine times out of ten, if you havn't 'broken' their disguised you really shouldn't 'susspect' them. If you absolutly have a very good rp reason to be susspicious, then go for it, but honestly I'd always err on the side of caution here.

For Those Disguised: Put some effort into your disguise, recognise that being Very Distinctive has it's drawbacks too. But if you are 'recognised' or treated 'susspiciously' but your disguise hasn't been broken? Please report it and we'll look into it.

[Marsi]

WYSIWYG is to protect you from the personal headcanon of a player claiming they have golden dragon wings, or that they're flying around when their model can do no such thing. WYSIWYG is not a hard and fast rule, and there are all kinds of "good" pretend-play, just like there is a kind of good metagaming. The line is pretty obviously drawn at whether or not it's an attempt to gain an IG advantage or enlarge oneself.

In the case of disguise, the limited realities of the game model are superseded by the disguise mechanics that tell you exactly how to proceed.

In general, I've always erred on the side of live and let live when it comes to disguise. I once had my character "recognised" by their weapon combination and it's like, ok, sure, but I'm not going to bother roleplaying with you again.

Personally, I think anyone aggressively hood/helmet checking should be reported for being a bad sport and a dork. It's an age-old, cross-server red flag.