Arcane Marauder Nerf Feedback

[Kalthariam]

So. It's been some time since this massive nerf.

Seems like basically everyones completely abandoned the Path at this point for other paths or even pathless. (Assuming they didn't just roll and abandon spellswords entirely)

Is the Maurader just going to be left like this until further notice? Effectively a dead path with basically no redeeming qualities, or is another adjustment pass being considered after all the dust has settled?

I've not re-leveled my Maurader, quietly just out of hope it will get another balance pass and restore.. something to this path, because I like the idea Maurader was providing, however, if this is just going to be the status quo for mauraders forever? Then I'll probably end up abandoning Maurader as well to something that doesn't feel so terrible to play.

[Tarkus the dog]

marauder is weak and the earth is flat

[Atlus]

So. It's been some time since this massive nerf.

Seems like basically everyones completely abandoned the Path at this point for other paths or even pathless. (Assuming they didn't just roll and abandon spellswords entirely)

Is the Maurader just going to be left like this until further notice? Effectively a dead path with basically no redeeming qualities, or is another adjustment pass being considered after all the dust has settled?

I've not re-leveled my Maurader, quietly just out of hope it will get another balance pass and restore.. something to this path, because I like the idea Maurader was providing, however, if this is just going to be the status quo for mauraders forever? Then I'll probably end up abandoning Maurader as well to something that doesn't feel so terrible to play.

I essentially abandoned my marauder entirely because the amount of effort that went into the character was irreversibly screwed with the changes (it'd require level 1 changes I wasn't going to try to pursue) and made them horribly under-perform compared to similar classes. I still don't understand how these changes got greenlit without any immediate recompense.

[AstralUniverse]

Marauder is not weak. If the argument is that other path(s)/pathless is stronger, then other path(s)/pathless need nerfs.

[Kalthariam]

I'm not quite sure I follow.

Abj. Champion feels like an appropriate shift in play style for a path, it changes the way you play to a significant margin. The blade singer is a flavorful direction, and once again, shifts the way you play the class to fit into a specific mold. Both of these paths cannot be simply replicated by being pathless.

What is the different between playing a Pathless Spellsword wielding a 2h weapon, and an Arcane Marauder?

Originally the difference was you got alot more raw damage in exchange for lower defenses.

Now they don't get armor imbues, and lose all the greater imbue benefits that all other spell sword paths get, they lost the enhancement bonus they had originally, lowering their damage, and their AC's been dropped with the weird hard Dex requirement for the weave affinity. They also no longer have the shorter maelstrom CD. It's the exact same CD length now.

So Comparatively, being Pathless Allows for Armor Imbues, Greater Imbues passives, and the same maelstrom output at the cost of 6 flat damage and a free power attack feat.

Your response to people pointing that out is to just nerf spell-swords further? Nothing about the fact the Marauder doesn't seem to really have a identity different enough to justify it being a path?

[AstralUniverse]

So Comparatively, being Pathless Allows for Armor Imbues, Greater Imbues passives, and the same maelstrom output at the cost of 6 flat damage and a free power attack feat.

You're also forgetting the 4 physical resistance which stacks with EDR or premonition.

The tl;dr is that Marauder is really strong, still. If you dont think so, then you're welcome to play pathless but you'll be doing 6 less damage and wont have 4 physical resistance. That's up to you but Marauder is not weak at all.

[Svrtr]

So Comparatively, being Pathless Allows for Armor Imbues, Greater Imbues passives, and the same maelstrom output at the cost of 6 flat damage and a free power attack feat.

You're also forgetting the 4 physical resistance which stacks with EDR or premonition.

The tl;dr is that Marauder is really strong, still. If you dont think so, then you're welcome to play pathless but you'll be doing 6 less damage and wont have 4 physical resistance. That's up to you but Marauder is not weak at all.

Going to have to disagree. As it stands, marauder:

Gains:
EWS
4/-
Power attack

Loses:
Armor imbue
Offhand stat stick
4 weave AC if you go STR
Armor imbue passives such as AC, AB, regen, etc

What marauder loses vs what it gains means marauder is a net loss versus other paaths in most people's minds, my own included. SS as a whole DOES overperform, but marauder loses far too much versus what it gains. This is why people say pathless SS is abetter marauder vs marauder, especially notably because of losing armor imbue and as well weave AC, and neednig to gear 18 DEX without getting ASF to cap the AC they do gain

SS as a whole does still overperform with mords, self bufffs, and ele strike, but marauder feels like a loss

[Helsing]

Marauder is not weak. If the argument is that other path(s)/pathless is stronger, then other path(s)/pathless need nerfs.

Agreed, the path might look weak comparing other path/pathless, but the class is definitely NOT weak, it’s a melee class with lvl 8 spells, self hastes, mords, 3 full ab attack per round, free whirling attacks, premonition and a lot other QoL stuffs. So maybe other path need nerf too, make mundane great again.

[Richrd]

Spellsword is the most definitive powercreep class.

Marauder now reads a bit more in line with the rest of melee classes.

Just nerf everything SS related except Marauder and we're gucci.

[Helsing]

Just remove TimeStop from SS spellbook so we don't need to make them delay a round to work

[AstralUniverse]

So Comparatively, being Pathless Allows for Armor Imbues, Greater Imbues passives, and the same maelstrom output at the cost of 6 flat damage and a free power attack feat.

You're also forgetting the 4 physical resistance which stacks with EDR or premonition.

The tl;dr is that Marauder is really strong, still. If you dont think so, then you're welcome to play pathless but you'll be doing 6 less damage and wont have 4 physical resistance. That's up to you but Marauder is not weak at all.

Going to have to disagree. As it stands, marauder:

Gains:
EWS
4/-
Power attack

Loses:
Armor imbue
Offhand stat stick
4 weave AC if you go STR
Armor imbue passives such as AC, AB, regen, etc

What marauder loses vs what it gains means marauder is a net loss versus other paaths in most people's minds, my own included. SS as a whole DOES overperform, but marauder loses far too much versus what it gains. This is why people say pathless SS is abetter marauder vs marauder, especially notably because of losing armor imbue and as well weave AC, and neednig to gear 18 DEX without getting ASF to cap the AC they do gain

SS as a whole does still overperform with mords, self bufffs, and ele strike, but marauder feels like a loss

The thing is a 2hander spellsword doesnt care about AC anyway. It doesnt reach 50 ac as pathless so at that point you dont really sacrifice much for doubling down on damage and dropping AC. If you're playing a 2hander spellsword you *should* go Marauder in my honest opinion. The class's kit + being 2hander = reaching that critical mass of damage output that allows you to delete people in 1 round and adding 6 phyiscal damage to that (and also, as a side product, 4 physical resistance that compliments your no-ac build wonderfully) seems like good value to me. I think, however, that Marauder could have it's reduced CD on Maelstrom back. I dont think it affects pvp powercreep all that much and this class really loves the extra clear speed for soloing with no AC. I dont know if the path even deserves it. But having Maelstrom twice in a pve fight at average is sure as hell fun and satisfying.

[msheeler]

I think if you going to epic areas and you need more than one Maelstrom in an encounter then you are in trouble. 30 seconds is a long time when you don't have a ton of AC and there's a pile of bad things around you.

That means 30 seconds or 60 seconds is more a matter of can you run through an area quicker or are you having to slow down so you have 60 seconds to recharge your Maelstrom before the next batch of PvE.

[AstralUniverse]

Yeah I definitely agree that it wont make a huge difference in terms of what content you can/cant solo and that's the reason I suggest it as something that makes things way more fun but isnt really a buff.

[Arienette]

After making this thread and waiting a while, hoping for… something, I re-lvled into Abjurant Champion.

I miss Improved Disarm and malestrom, but it is over all much better than marauder.

People like to say that the AC doesn’t matter for a class like Marauder, but it does, a lot.

In PvE, the extra AC you used to have defrayed a lot of the damage you would have received. That combined with 30 second negative malestroms and passive regen made it survivable in difficult PvE, which it no longer is.

In PvP, the loss of AC created a situation where you were at the complete mercy of anything with good AC, especially stuff like Paladin and BG. When they can turn on IE and hit 71 AC, your big damage numbers mean nothing when your only hitting on natural 20s. And even with IE on, they can bang away at you with 3+ hits per round, easy.

Yes, it is still a Spellsword and it’s still good, still has a nice spellbook. But as a straight up brawler (which is what made it fun) it’s just kind of bad now.

[Kalthariam]

I was informed that the point of a Path for a Class, is to have an explicit change in playstyle that cannot be normally replicated in the base class. (See: All the Cleric paths, the Abj. Champion, the Blade singer)

They get changes to their base class that specifically tailor them to something completely different from what you normally would get playing the base class.

Marauder does not do this anymore.

6 flat damage, power attack, and a 4/- dr is not what I would consider to be "Path Defining" nor is it remotely worth the trade offs.

[Arienette]

Hard agree with the above.

And all the “yeah it got a bit of a nerf but it’s still strong and good, if you think otherwise your just being silly” is ridiculous.

If marauder was determined to be too good and was causing an imbalance and had to be nerfed to death, fine. But don’t piss on my and tell me it’s raining.

Marauder nerf is akin to:

Ranger losing blade thirst and animal companion

Paladin bless weapon going from EB to AB and divine feats switching to using CHA mod to half CHA mod

BG curse going to AB over EB and summon going to rounds/level

Weapon master losing crit multipler

Etc. A huge overall power nerf that totally changes the way the class is played and/or geared.

Marauder nerfs did that. If it was necessary, fine. But call it what it is.

[Helsing]

Hard agree with the above.

And all the “yeah it got a bit of a nerf but it’s still strong and good, if you think otherwise your just being silly” is ridiculous.

If marauder was determined to be too good and was causing an imbalance and had to be nerfed to death, fine. But don’t piss on my and tell me it’s raining.

Marauder nerf is akin to:

Ranger losing blade thirst and animal companion

Paladin bless weapon going from EB to AB and divine feats switching to using CHA mod to half CHA mod

BG curse going to AB over EB and summon going to rounds/level

Weapon master losing crit multipler

Etc. A huge overall power nerf that totally changes the way the class is played and/or geared.

Marauder nerfs did that. If it was necessary, fine. But call it what it is.

Your examples are bad, Marauder nerf is a Path nerf, not a Class nerf, so akin it to, for example Ancient Oath nerf is more proper.

[Arienette]

Hard agree with the above.

And all the “yeah it got a bit of a nerf but it’s still strong and good, if you think otherwise your just being silly” is ridiculous.

If marauder was determined to be too good and was causing an imbalance and had to be nerfed to death, fine. But don’t piss on my and tell me it’s raining.

Marauder nerf is akin to:

Ranger losing blade thirst and animal companion

Paladin bless weapon going from EB to AB and divine feats switching to using CHA mod to half CHA mod

BG curse going to AB over EB and summon going to rounds/level

Weapon master losing crit multipler

Etc. A huge overall power nerf that totally changes the way the class is played and/or geared.

Marauder nerfs did that. If it was necessary, fine. But call it what it is.

Your examples are bad, Marauder nerf is a Path nerf, not a Class nerf, so akin it to, for example Ancient Oath nerf is more proper.

Yes, I am aware marauder is a path. The point I am trying to make is that the changes to marauder are a lot bigger than some people here are trying to say, and fundamentally changed how the class works.

To me, the core of what made marauder “a thing” was fast malestroms (for damage output and regen to stay alive) and EB from imbue. Both of these things were reduced, by an approximation of “half”. And then it lost other things as well, just, as a treat!

Imagine any class that gets the ability to give their weapon 5 EB suddenly swapping to AB and just acting like it’s no big deal. Imagine ranger BT becoming AB instead of EB, and reducing regen by more than half and just going “meh it’s still fine”.

And yes, I realize that marauder is a path and ranger is a class, in case that isn’t clear.

[AstralUniverse]

People like to say that the AC doesn’t matter for a class like Marauder, but it does, a lot.

Eh... I mean.. AC matters in general but I think it's 100% worth dropping that ac on Marauder for 6 damage and 4 physical resistance. The fact is people just struggle to wrap their head around the idea that dropping all these things for 6 damage and 4 dr is worth it to some class, but it is, because that damage and dr is so meaningful in how it compliments the rest of the class's kit and what it wants to do in combat, and the fact it just doesnt have real ac anyway. I still think it can have it's 30 cd maelstroms but otherwise it is very much fine.

[Kalthariam]

That still doesn't approach the fact that, as per what people have said before is the whole purpose of a path for a class, the Marauder does not in any way make any meaningful changes to a spellsword playstyle that could not be replicated in it's entirety by the base class without the path.

A flat 6 Damage, nearly useless feat, and some invisible DR you will likely never notice is once again not anywhere defining of what a path is.

The old Marauder got changes to the base class that made it feel like a path. It changed your playstyle, and leaned into the Less armored but hits hard 2h fighter archetype, while still retaining the baseline Spellsword abilities.

Marauder in the state it currently in, does not feel like a path, it's you trading off half your kit for a small damage boost, a unimaginative feat you probably in most cases will not use, and a small amount of DR you likely will never notice. It's like swapping around a few feats, not choosing a path. Heck, I literally had no idea Marauder had any form of damage reduction until someone pointed it out to me when I was nearly max level. It's invisible, it doesn't feel like it has any meaningful impact, and your not going to notice 4 less damage per hit when you get hit by flurries of damage ranging from 30-60 (Assuming your not being crit).

6 Damage is an okay bump, but when all your big 2h weapons have large weapon damage variances, that 6 damage rarely is going to be truly noticed, just like with damage variances from taking damage you're probably never going to look at a combat and go. "Wow, I really felt that 4/- DR kicking in last fight." both of these benefits are on sheet only and through gameplay are basically invisible passive bonuses.

If you saw a Unpathed Spellsword and a Marauder fighting next to each other, not witnessing them buff before anything and just watched them fight a few packs of enemies, it'd be nearly impossible to tell which person was just an unpathed spellsword two-handing their weapon, which one's an Arcane Marauder as it stands right now.

[msheeler]

Maybe you're right and we should just remove the marauder path. Any of them can just rebuild to pathless or something else.

[AstralUniverse]

If I was playing a 2hander spellsword right now and Marauder path was removed, I'd be very sad to play a 2hander spellsword pathless. But maybe that's just me. I'd miss the epic spec and dr. I also dont understand the argument that it can be replicated by pathless and thus there's no need for this path. Cant you say the same thing about arcane archer or other things which are mostly boosts to stats rather than 'thematic' and 'flavorful' abilities? I dont really see it as purposeless anymore than the existence of Fighter or Arcane archer.

[Atlus]

Maybe you're right and we should just remove the marauder path. Any of them can just rebuild to pathless or something else.

Marauder should be redesigned from the ground up at this point. The nerfs have removed any long term legitimacy to it.

[Kalthariam]

Maybe you're right and we should just remove the marauder path. Any of them can just rebuild to pathless or something else.

I mean, I personally feel like it should be shifted to having a theme again, so that it's like every other path Arelith has. As of this moment, Marauder does not have a theme. (6 flat damage and 4/- dr is not a theme)

if you compare Marauder in it's current state to any of the cleric paths, which have had quite a lot of attention and all their changes specifically cater to completely separate play styles, and even the other Spellsword paths.. Marauder is completely absent of any sort of actual theme. The theme it once had now feels completely lost, and you are now basically spending two feats, to gain two and a half feats. (Or are people really that excited to get Power attack at level 21?)

In the end if you cannot or do not want to make it work, that's on the devs and the contributors working on this. All I'm basically asking is should I pull the trigger and just completely abandon Marauder, like most people have? Or is there a chance at it being revisited soon?

Again, if there is no interest in making any changes in the future to this path, that's fine. I'd just like to know that so I can make an informed decision on where I should take my Spellsword.

[msheeler]

My understanding of the matter is no. There will be no more changes to Marauder unless it is simply removed. Of course that is not an absolute 100% either way. Something may come along, but so far it has not and there is nothing on the horizon.

As it was Marauder was simply too much and the changes made were done to put it back in balance with other classes.

I understand that you feel it is under-rated now, but a lot of others disagree. The fact that there is debate and people on both sides that feel the class is either good or bad is probably a good sign that it is pretty much where it should be power-wise.