You really need x

[HeyLadyOfDecay]

So, I play sorcerer for a bit,

Those who play or played casters might know this feeling:

"You need these spells to be payable"

Like, every mage picks a certain spell, often leaving little space for flavor spells or rp spells.

Do I make sense? You get me? You feel it too?

Same with skills, at a lighter note with feats.

Some improvements:

Epic reputation feat could be requested and awarded by dm.
Maybe some other feats aswell.

2 more base skillpoints

Put all zoo spells under 1 spell, much like the alignment spell.

[AstralUniverse]

Some setups are stronger and more 'optimal' than others, and this is true no matter how many features, spells or skill points you add. it's true for all things in the game but you feel it the most with spontaneous casters because every spell they pick in high levels really need to matter. Buffing mages is really not the answer.

Also, animal wards are easily accessed through items and you dont need to invest spells into them anyway.

[HeyLadyOfDecay]

Some setups are stronger and more 'optimal' than others, and this is true no matter how many features, spells or skill points you add. it's true for all things in the game but you feel it the most with spontaneous casters because every spell they pick in high levels really need to matter. Buffing mages is really not the answer.

Also, animal wards are easily accessed through items and you dont need to invest spells into them anyway.

I honestly dislike the RP vs Power balance in builds;

When it comes to mage builds I often get talked down for taking RP spells.

When it comes to skillpoints I often find lack skill points to give my character "personal skills",

And lately you often -need- sail cause you might get friends wanting to sail and then you feel like this total useless extra weight.

And feats its often "that be fun, but.. "

As for items, I already have more than enough items. Lot of people are in an ever ongoing battle between weight and space, myself included.

[Amateur Hour]

...

When it comes to mage builds I often get talked down for taking RP spells.

...

When it comes to skillpoints I often find lack skill points to give my character "personal skills",

...

And lately you often -need- sail cause you might get friends wanting to sail and then you feel like this total useless extra weight.

I say this with compassion and empathy: maybe your characters need better friends if their players are always trying to bully you into building the character they want and not the character you want.

Granted, this is also an 'all in moderation' thing. Because if you want to be able to survive in combat, you should have to make some choices for pragmatism. You should need to decide that your sorcerer has actually started caring about spells in general (i.e. take spellcraft) and learning how to focus (i.e. take concentration). I don't think it's unreasonable for people to expect you to be able to function in a combat situation...but it's unreasonable for them to expect you be so min-maxxed that you can do everything with the minimum number of people.

[Edens_Fall]

You really only need to view it as two paths. Do you want to be good at PvP? YES or NO.

If YES then you really should stick to the build paths, as too much change and your PC becomes useless in combat.

If NO, or more importantly, you don't care about PvP . . . then do whatever you want! Take those spells and skills. Arelith PvE is not so grinding that you need the best build for it.

That's the way I look at it anyway. Anytime I make a new PC I always ask that one question and build from there. PvP or RP. YES or NO.

Hope that helps.

[-XXX-]

Mass Haste
Greater Sanctuary
Mordenkainen's Disjunction
Summons* backed by related spell focus feats

Those are the essentials that the sorcerer needs to function, be able to solo level appropriate PvE content or help their party.
There's still a lot of room for customization left IMO.

I wouldn't really consider sorcerers to be an S-tier PvP option in general, but even that short list above allows them to sway the outcome of a PvP encounter or escape trouble when necessary.

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*conju or necro - pick your poison

[Yvesza]

Sorcerers are probably the most stable and singularly powerful classes, while they're not the best class in PvE (Div casters are significantly better for it it and enchantment wizards make for the best summoners), their power in PvP is very difficult to match.

For that reason alone I doubt sorcerers would ever see many changes, even if I think another spell known in some of the lower levels (particularly third, with the additon of the new wands) wouldn't upset much of anything.

I think one of my biggest issues with sorcerers are how much they're forced into extremes of alignment, particularly evil.

Sorcerer / Paladin requires lawful good
Sorcerer / BG requires any evil
Sorcerer / ranger wants to use inception of nightmares, which also requires evil (Why this isn't non-good only, I don't know)

There's a lot of non-choices with the class, maybe more than any others.

[Lewtzy]

I honestly dislike the RP vs Power balance in builds;

When it comes to mage builds I often get talked down for taking RP spells.

When it comes to skillpoints I often find lack skill points to give my character "personal skills",

And lately you often -need- sail cause you might get friends wanting to sail and then you feel like this total useless extra weight.

And feats its often "that be fun, but.. "

As for items, I already have more than enough items. Lot of people are in an ever ongoing battle between weight and space, myself included.

As a player of many suboptimal builds/meme builds. I hear what you're saying, but I also believe strongly in just doing whatever the heck you want.

The sail skill need you mentioned is a good example of it. Does your character like to sail? I try to see things from their perspective and RP. No matter what the "powerbuild option" is.

And if you DO feel de absolute need. Build the power option, and cut away things for RP.

Just being strong may allow you to "win" more. But... Where is the fun in always winning?

[Eyeliner]

Just being strong may allow you to "win" more. But... Where is the fun in always winning?

I hear you, but a problem is the majority of players build optimally. If you do the same you're usually still not 'always' winning- you're lucky to win some times because a strong build just means you're competitive not dominating. If you build too poorly, you're never winning unless it's a totally lopsided fight.

That may not matter to you and I'm not saying it should. But it is something to keep in mind if you want a character who will have a chance in PVP. I would at least start the character with decent stats and solid initial feats so if you build sub-optimally you'll have a decent foundation to go back to if you change your mind and decide to rebuild later on.

[HeyLadyOfDecay]

Just being strong may allow you to "win" more. But... Where is the fun in always winning?

I hear you, but a problem is the majority of players build optimally. If you do the same you're usually still not 'always' winning- you're lucky to win some times because a strong build just means you're competitive not dominating. If you build too poorly, you're never winning unless it's a totally lopsided fight.

That may not matter to you and I'm not saying it should. But it is something to keep in mind if you want a character who will have a chance in PVP. I would at least start the character with decent stats and solid initial feats so if you build sub-optimally you'll have a decent foundation to go back to if you change your mind and decide to rebuild later on.

I don't opti-build, but I do try to be survive, years ago I gave up on pvp.

But I struggle a lot with spells, feats and skills I basicly wish for RP, And I think RP should be promoted more over pvp/pve.

Maybe we should just enter trainers who can train certsin skills to 15 and then lock the skill.
Sell certain feats and spells (hey gold sink)

[-XXX-]

But I struggle a lot with spells, feats and skills I basicly wish for RP, And I think RP should be promoted more over pvp/pve.

What skills and feats do you struggle to squeeze in?

If you're not building for PvP, you can waive discipline and build for 3x ESF out of which I'd consider only one to be "prescribed" (conjuration or necromancy to boost summons). Even taking 3x ESF + Conduit/Dust still leaves you with spare epic feats.

Where skills are concerned we're pretty much talking only about concentration and spellcraft here - even an INT 10 sorcerer will still be able to fully max two additional skills after that.

Spell selection can be a bit rough - especially the lvl 6 arcane spell circle that is full of really good spells and the sorcerer gets only 3.
Then again, that's what the class is all about - had sorcerers been more versatile there'd be no point in the wizards.


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p.s.: I really REALLY don't like the trainer idea.
Let's just list a few things that characters being able to train up to 15 "extra" ranks in any skill would mean:

+3 saves vs spells for everyone (spellcraft)
+3-6 AC for everyone (tumble, parry)
Immunity to attacks of opportunity for everyone (tumble)
Free use of lvl 1-3 scrolls for everyone (lore)
Auto-identify for everyone (lore)
Everyone gets 2 votes in elections (leadership)
Higher income for everyone (appraise, leadership, search)
Traps everywhere (use trap)
Burglars everywhere (open lock, disable trap)
Everybody gets a pet (animal empathy)
Horses for everyone (ride)
...
apply bard song to break the universe

[Amateur Hour]

Just being strong may allow you to "win" more. But... Where is the fun in always winning?

I hear you, but a problem is the majority of players build optimally. If you do the same you're usually still not 'always' winning- you're lucky to win some times because a strong build just means you're competitive not dominating. If you build too poorly, you're never winning unless it's a totally lopsided fight.

That may not matter to you and I'm not saying it should. But it is something to keep in mind if you want a character who will have a chance in PVP. I would at least start the character with decent stats and solid initial feats so if you build sub-optimally you'll have a decent foundation to go back to if you change your mind and decide to rebuild later on.

I don't opti-build, but I do try to be survive, years ago I gave up on pvp.

But I struggle a lot with spells, feats and skills I basicly wish for RP, And I think RP should be promoted more over pvp/pve.

Maybe we should just enter trainers who can train certsin skills to 15 and then lock the skill.
Sell certain feats and spells (hey gold sink)

My main at the moment is a sorcerer optimized for character concept instead of PvP or PvE. She's a lot of fun to play...but I can't take her out for combat, like, at all these days. And that's something I've had to accept, but once I accepted it I've had a ton of fun.

• To build for PvP, you have to pick whatever is mechanically optimum for burst damage. Sorcerer has very little leeway here.
• To build for PvE, you have a lot more leeway and can take some more "for flavor" spells because you're going to necessarily be relying on summons for sustained damage, and with the summon sequencer update you aren't going to be using many spell slots for buffs since circle VI already had your most important spells.
• To build for concept, go nuts. Take the weirdest spells and feats you want. Honestly, I think sorcerer is the perfect candidate for this since sorcerers by definition don't get to pick their spells from an in-character perspective. They just mysteriously have the capacity to perform certain spells, and unlike favored souls, there's not some distant being who is (theoretically) intelligent granting said spells. It's quite possible, lore-wise, for a sorcerer to not have the capacity to cast a single harmful spell, or to only cast spells that do fire damage, or something like that.

This said...I think it's also necessary to acknowledge that you can have a fantastic character concept that just doesn't adapt well for Arelith, and this is also particularly true for sorcerers; in the Forgotten Realms, sorcerers who get poor luck-of-the-draw with their spells would just die or have to choose to do something non-adventure-y with their life...unless they happen to be a player character with a DM who can tweak spells accordingly (which is fine at a tabletop but not sustainable for a persistent world). You want a sorcerer who's the child of Ghaunadaur cultists and has a penchant for acid? Great idea...but probably better for tabletop where your DM can homebrew-vary some spells to have acid damage so you have more choices.

[Waldo52]

I do have a lot of sympathy for the OP. While sorcerers are in a good place power-wise, default NWN makes it extremely difficult to make characters customized to a theme.

The demon summoner who starts by summoning badgers (instead of, you know, small demons?)

The ice mage in flowing blue robes whose best option is fireball or call lightning (not sure if this is accurate at any level, I don't play mages. But you get the idea)

The druid who gets so good at taming and transforming into animals that he finally gets to turn into an elemental (like, what? You can't just be a stronger bear?)

Arelith has made some improvements in this regard but it's still difficult to make a powerful caster that conforms to a theme.