So, if you have fixtures on you and your subdual'd or killed then all of the fixtures are dropped not has /fixtures/ but has an item that represents it..so technically the items then couldnt be held to the current fixture theft rules?
The concern isnt really for random crafting stations, yes crafters do carry them no i'm not going to stop carrying them,but rather for a few specific things..namely moving houses.
If you've ever had even a slightly decent home you prolly also had anywhere from 10-40 fixtures so what happens if you get ganked when your moving into your new home and carrying fixtures to the new place? Per current rules the fixtures when dropped are not fixtures.. So.. idk, thoughts? opinions?
It was generally considered that dying whilst moving house is a rare enough situation that it's not something to be too concerned over, I believe. With the various fast travel options (yoinking, lensing ect) it should be pretty safe. And if you're particularly worried, you can always hire someone to guard you and or to -yoink you to your new home.
If by some particularly cruel twist of fate, we discover this occuring a lot, then I'm sure we can look at reverting the change.
This too shall pass.
(I now have a DM Discord (I hope) It's DM GrumpyCat#7185 but please keep in mind I'm very busy IRL so I can't promise how quick I'll get back to you.)
There's alot of issues I find with this change. One, while the dropped items are still likely beholden to the "one theft per 24 hour" rule, you are still beholden to avoid the people who killed you for 48 hours. This makes recovering those items that werent stolen practically infeasible if it happened in a hub area those characters hang out in. This doesnt add to gameplay or roleplay, its just annoying.
Two, bombards and other siege weapons dropping means these things, which are barely useful as is, will never be carried by anyone, which means you will never see them in the field outside of RP props. This kills the entire gameplay mechanic they had on land, while also making it needlessly risk to try to transport to ships. I find the need to apply realism here negatively impacts gameplay to the point that such things become obsolete. It also makes things like the Cheval de Frise barricades, which were already practically pointless to deploy even more impractical. The only way to effectively use these fixtures in combat roles is to have them on you, ready to use. If you're expecting people to have to go all the way back to home or where ever they are stored, then get back to the fight before its over, it creates an undue burden that translates into them just simply never being used. These combat fixtures already have a ton of risks associated with their use, from being trivial to steal (pickup_fixture works even if youre on the siege weapon), being able to be easily destroyed by damage, to the host of issues with trying to use them in active combat due to the dialog system they use. Add this to the expense of their ammo, the complicated way to even aim them, and the sheer weight alone, it adds up to a death knell for these items.
Three, it creates a massive risk and burden to these fixtures as RP props. Realism shouldnt come before RP value. Creating even more risk for people attempting to do gimmicks such as traveling booksellers, crafters, or camp builders means the likelihood of seeing these gimmicks will drop massively, which I simply do not understand why in a RP venue such as this that you would want that.
I understand the purpose for this new system when it comes to fixture theft and the attempt to recover the items. Those items are already being flagged by the system as stolen, which the game clearly states when you pick up one that doesnt belong to you. Those fixtures dropping when flagged by the system makes sense. All fixtures dropping does not, not in any way that promotes healthy gameplay. Fixture carry already demands alot of a character from inventory management and risk of destruction and theft as is. Given the limited amount of quarters, and the multitude of multiple character players who cant have properties for those characters, this creates a large burden that ultimately results in less fun and enjoyment across the board, even more so that its also including PvE deaths, putting commoners who already have it rough in a even rougher spot. Limiting it to actually stolen fixtures corrects alot of these flaws.
I feel without changes that this system will negatively impact many player's gameplay experiences without adding much of any value to the roleplay of the server.
idk, do people just carry giant fences and cannons at all times because they might be useful once a year? I'd think you'd bring these to a major conflict, not keep them on hand because you might get into a bar fight.
Regarding traveling campers and merchants? that barely happened with fixtures anyway and that avenue of rp hasn't been shut down. The answer is simple.
Sounds like a good change to me.
Don't really think people should just be carrying anvils, ballistas, bombards and stuff in their pockets either, unless you're actually roleplaying having that thing strapped to your back.
It's a little bit of silliness I'm glad might go away, now!
It's great to be able to kill a thief and actually get your stuff back all IC without needing to break character for tells.
The more Arelith I can navigate with -notells on, the better.
From my end:
I will be making it so fixtures dropped will not be cleaned up by area scripts soon.
There is also logging of dropped items via this system.
As for the ruling on items taken this way, it'll be up to the DM's, I don't particularly mind but I think a resets window is generous to get together a group, ask someone else or return and recover items lost while also meaningfully giving risk.
(Edit: I'm occupied so will respond in more depth later to the longer posts)
Irongron wrote:I've literally never used -guard on anyone.
Do people actually carry fixtures around all the time when they die, is that an actual problem? Or is this just something I'm too low str to understand.
Zavandar wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 4:32 pm
idk, do people just carry giant fences and cannons at all times because they might be useful once a year? I'd think you'd bring these to a major conflict, not keep them on hand because you might get into a bar fight.
In the context of my personal use of these? Yes. I have an entire page of inventory dedicated to the use of these, and took max strength just be able to do such. Its a heavy feat investment for a niche role, but something Ive also put many many hours into developing tactics for. My personal context is that of a Bendir guard. Bendir already has the worst barracks hands down, with limited storage and many translations. It's open air nature (doesnt require translations to enter or leave town) means Bendir is the sole settlement that can actually make use of this mechanic. For me to have to run through several translations to get to this gear means this gear will never be used given the speed at which raids on Bendir occur. Its a very limited niche, but one I enjoy greatly. If the change was limited to stolen fixtures only, that niche remains. As the system currently stands, it will destroy that niche.
When a system goes in like this, you have to consider all the areas it will effect. If it doesnt add much of value to RP and gameplay, but negatively impacts a handful of players, then it wasnt really a good idea. Chasing realism for the sake of realism doesnt really do a whole lot when we're still carrying entire dragon skulls in a bag within a bag and carrying the weight of a fully loaded Ford F350 while doing so. Limiting this mechanic strictly to stolen fixtures makes far more sense.
If someone has a vested interest in keeping their bag full of fixtures, then perhaps when they are faced with a dangerous situation that will cause them to potentially lose those, they run away.
This is not preventing anyone from carrying these items. A bit more care is just needed when going into dangerous situations. Just like how you wouldn't carry 200k in gold when going to fight Abazuur.
It also doesn't have to be an all or nothing situation. If you are going out to an epic dungeon or exploring the underdark, then maybe leave the fixtures set up at home. If you're going to be around the Dale, where it's unlikely that you'll get into conflict until a raid happens, then yeah, it's perfectly reasonable to fold them up and stuff them in your bag for easy defensive maneuvers.
I exist to describe the world around us.
Akorae - Traveling to find happiness. Yrsa Hakondottir - returned to Ruathym Xifali'ae - sleeping with the fishies Keth'ym Evanara - wandering better paths Veriel Xyrdan - married and happy Reena Welkins - dead
1) As said there are LOTS of ways of moving house - portal, yoink, invisability, haste, polymorph, or just getting a bunch of folk to help ect- to make the process quicker and easier. Remember that whilst you arn't allowed to own two quarters at the same time - the DM team is generally happy and understanding of keeping that extra quarter for a few IRL hours whilst you move things over. So if you want to take an hour to gather some buddies to help you move, that should be fine.
2) The fixture theft... and indeed general theft rules apply. Do not take more than one fixture per 24 hours. And honestly if someone dies and drops a lot of fixtures? I'd honestly argue it'd be the kind thing to do to grant them a chance - if they're in conflicted terrotory, to get back those fixtures. I'd also arguing that targetting someone for their fixtures when they're moving house would probably be considered Bad Form by the team. The Be Nice rule is well in effect here. Going forward we'll be looking at these situations I think less with a 'Is this /speecificall/ within the /exact/ wording of the rules?' and more as in 'Is someone here trying to be a cheeseball?'
3) That said, maybe take a bit of care when moving house? Utilzie points mentioned above - consider perhaps not moving tonnes of fixture whilst heavily encumbered through highly dangerous territory.
4) The above being said, if someone steals five fixtures belonging to other players, gets beaten up - then I think it's entirely within the rights of other people to take those fixtures from the thief (especially given that the thief has already broken the fixture rule again). Again - it's a situation we'll look at on a case by case basis.
5) I get that there are other concerns with this. I'll talk to Sincrea. But in future, sadly, if you want to carry around lots of fixtures with you that's going to come with a risk.
This too shall pass.
(I now have a DM Discord (I hope) It's DM GrumpyCat#7185 but please keep in mind I'm very busy IRL so I can't promise how quick I'll get back to you.)
I never liked Pocket Anvil/Altar rp. My sympathy goes to those who will get ganked because they are walking around in the open heavily encumbered, but I dont think that's anything particularly wrong with getting ganked in the open when you're heavily encumbered. In fact, I think it makes road bandits RP more rewarding than just getting someone's coin purse with few hundreds in it.
KriegEternal wrote:
Their really missing mords and some minor flavor things.
Allow me to posit the points being neglected:
If a fixture has risk tied to moving it then the rp from said fixture is now given gravity, you associate a value to the item and thus there is consequence to losing it.
Eira summed up my feelings exceptionally well so I'd encourage you to read that.
I'm open to hearing peoples opinions but I am not going to be swayed by "this ends my character and rp from this item!!!"
Primarily, this is because if you can't afford to carry that item or protect yourself long enough to undertake the rp you intended with it then you wouldn't have been able to do that rp anyway.
That Bombard, you died? How are you doing anything with it, are you running back immediately and placing it down? Or is it the risk of loss and needing to replace it you have issue with?
Also forgot to add, all of this is optional risks.
You make the choice to carry gold and lose that in the exact same circumstance.
If you can choose not to lose something, it's actually a good way to provide risk in my opinion.
Irongron wrote:I've literally never used -guard on anyone.
I feel like the rare "one of a kind" art fixtures should also be exempt from this change considering that from the get-go there were players vying to destroy them if they could and that the new unavoidability of such an eventuality against a determined group means that such items are much less attractive to own and creates a dynamic where even being known for having one becomes an invitation towards griefing.
As someone that does often use their fixtures for non-combative purposes, it does absolutely stuck.
My character carries around a sign and table to plop down when he offers gambling sessions. It's a burden to run back and forth between my quarter when I notice an active social hub is getting busy; I might miss a chance.
Do you get into PvP frequently enough that you might lose your table and sign? Also, those are really easy to replace fixtures. Deciding to not keep RPing as normal in the off chance you might lose a table and a sign is sort of weird. The update isn't saying "carrying fixtures will now put a timer on your character before they explode and die," it's saying that if your character dies while holding something it'll drop. How often do people die that this is an issue?
Dreams wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 4:40 pm
Why do people carry fixtures around? What is there to be upset about here?
Some reasons I know of:
People moving.
People carrying around "travel craft kits" because the public workstations bug out so often.
Siege equipment, which necessarily must be brought to the battlefield.
Honestly, I wish the craft stations were exempt from drop too because it makes sense that you'd be able to pack up a small sewing kit in a backpack (I'm a reenactor, and I definitely have a tiny sewing kit that I've used to make entire outfits by hand, so it's super feasible) or a small set of pans for an herbalist and things like that. But at least those aren't prohibitively expensive or difficult to replace or make on-the-fly, which is the big problem with siege equipment (since those are relatively high DC, high CP and therefore can't be made to order in the moment).
People carrying around "travel craft kits" because the public workstations bug out so often.
Siege equipment, which necessarily must be brought to the battlefield.
1. Short duration, you can minimise this risk by not dying/taking risky routes.
2. Travel Craft Kits, or, as was added, repair kits? This encourages actual use of trade workshops, and is not a detraction. You can still carry them however, again, just don't die.
3. Not sure if you've ever seen any military sim games but artillery doesn't tend to be wading through a battlefield to setup. It's not as if any of these are a battering ram, so you should easily be able to set them up at range.
Once more. If you were dying anyway, you wouldn't be doing crafting or siege weapon placement.
Moving house is different, and is probably the only actually legitimate concern, but can be mitigated through RP or careful management.
Irongron wrote:I've literally never used -guard on anyone.
Sincra wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 5:09 pm
3. Not sure if you've ever seen any military sim games but artillery doesn't tend to be wading through a battlefield to setup. It's not as if any of these are a battering ram, so you should easily be able to set them up at range.
I do encourage you to attempt to use these items in game, you'll find that wading into action with them is just about the only practical way to employ them, and even then, their use is very limited due the clunky mechanics they use (bombards being the only one of the 4 types actually useful at all). Arelith isnt a war sim, realism doesnt trump gameplay.
Sincra wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 5:09 pm
3. Not sure if you've ever seen any military sim games but artillery doesn't tend to be wading through a battlefield to setup. It's not as if any of these are a battering ram, so you should easily be able to set them up at range.
I do encourage you to attempt to use these items in game, you'll find that wading into action with them is just about the only practical way to employ them, and even then, their use is very limited due the clunky mechanics they use (bombards being the only one of the 4 types actually useful at all). Arelith isnt a war sim, realism doesnt trump gameplay.
I appreciate there may be some issues with them, but as I addressed on Discord, I am willing to work on resolving those, rather than applying an exception to something that does not deserve or warrant it.
Irongron wrote:I've literally never used -guard on anyone.
Sincra wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 5:09 pm
2. Travel Craft Kits, or, as was added, repair kits? This encourages actual use of trade workshops, and is not a detraction. You can still carry them however, again, just don't die.
Literally travel crafting workstations. It has been (for those who have the carry weight...none of my characters do) an exceedingly useful option for crafters when the public stations bug out. I've had a few times on my dwarf jeweler where I've tried to craft something at the station in Brogendenstein, it's been bugged out, used the portal to go to Bendir, have its art station bugged out as well, and had to go all the way to Sibayad to find a publicly-accessible one that isn't "broken." The way I've typically seen it explained IC is that there's some piece of small equipment someone walked off with that they desperately need to use the station and its absence means they can't do anything at said station, but isn't it reasonable that, say, a tailor could carry a spare pair of shears?
This has become less of a problem since crafting stations are bugging out less often these days, but when it does happen it's an exceptional hassle.
