Summons are overpowered

[Agog_fr]

Hello to you. I think summons are overpowered. I use summons since I play a Warlock.

I don't have a feat in Conjuration or Necromancy. I don't have a class that specializes in summoning. And yet, my Abomination holds up well in late game. I see PCs who have a summon that does much more damage than I do per round, and tank farmuch than I can do, with 900 HP.

Having very powerful summons, makes it not so necessary to go in groups. It's a shame because stimulating the complementarity of the classes makes the game more exciting. And Arelith is the biggest server, I think we don't need to make the PCs stand alone to play solo.

On the other hand, the fact that the summoner classes are very strong, is very good. Pale Master, Epic Conjurer etc. invest a lot in this area so it's only natural that they shine.


Last point: Sequencers. To me they contribute to the fact that anyone can have a very solid Summon. Having a SR of 42 is very strong, drow only have 26 in comparaison. Maybe this SR property should be reserved to specialised summoner classes.

[Helsing]

Classes without summons are in an awkward position in PvE, they cannot tank or do damage better than summons.

Most of these non-summoners rely on AB to attack, but when facing bosses with super high AC, warlock or any class with touch attack is a better dpser than them. PC and Mummy dust does more damage than a WM or class with similar dps output. So just imagining a warlock with PC or Mummy dust and how it will overperform a mudine...

When tanking they are risking being killed, eating all CC and AoE in fear of roll 1 in save, while summoners just spam summoning (specially undead summons) and sit behind without worry about taking damage.

Thirdly, summoners is like zero gear dependency, you can play a druid naked and still be super good in PvE, and try play a naked swash and prepare to cry. The effort you put in gearing doesn't feel worth it because someone just click Conduit button and overperforms u, it feels pretty bad.

For anyone who plays a non summoner solo, I feel empathy with you as I did it once myself and will never play one again. Sadly the only place they shine might be PvP currently.

[AstralUniverse]

I havent played a serious summoner that relies a lot on summons since the sequencers (but I did play with some summons a bit here and there, on bard or hemomencer) so take it with a grain of salt.

I think that on one hand a none-infi caster has no business soloing anything without a summon that is able to solo for them. I would also like to remind you all that summons have much lower saves than characters and can get owned by Turns, Banishments, Dsmissals, etc etc. So summons arent as reliable as a character with the same stats. This alone goes to incentivize grouping at least slightly.

On the other hand, mundane characters need to invest a LOT of gold into consumables in order to compete with casters in soloing (way WAAAAAAAY more than a caster invests on components and sequencers).

So that's my two cents. No real opinion, just some observations.

[stoneheart-]

FWIW, most summons are fine. Like the elementals and even Gate are ok.

But I'm playing a conjuror right now and man. Conduit is still busted. I don't know if the nerfs that were supposedly plan never went in or what, maybe the sequencer nerfs were supposed to "fix" it but it didnt, not at all. I can still solo pretty much anything with it. Yes I spent 3 feats, but conjuration is practically a mandatory feat for any arcane caster so I would have done it anyway, so I don't think that's an excuse. Sequencers made them worse, not better, because you can reapply a sequencer at any time they lose a buff, whereas you'd run out of spells before (and some spells that you couldn't put on them before).

Conduit needs to be touched still. Not gutted, just touched.

[God_In_Action]

I won't comment on the balancing of summons, since that is a very fine judgement to make. It's not easy by any means.

I definitely much prefer how summons are now to how they ever were in previous years. My biggest wish is for variety. Undead do this well, since there are many options and each with a niche to fill, but I think it is a real shame that non-evil summoners just rely on the same two summons almost all the time: elementals, slaadi, rinse and repeat. I always imagine that a dedicated summoner would be a lot more fun to play if you had a wide range of summons (ideally for different niches, but even just re-skinning options).

Also, I reckon changing Word of Faith would be important to making a dedicated summoner a viable strategy. Summoning can never be a viable strategy whilst there is an instant summon-delete button without any counter to it.

[Helsing]

Summoning can never be a viable strategy whilst there is an instant summon-delete button without any counter to it.

Counter is greater sequencers, 42 SR or spell mantle. Of course there are a counter to a counter, but that's another topic.

[Amateur Hour]

Summoning can never be a viable strategy whilst there is an instant summon-delete button without any counter to it.

Counter is greater sequencers, 42 SR or spell mantle. Of course there are a counter to a counter, but that's another topic.

If we're getting to counters to counters, that's probably an indicator that things are balanced enough. If we allow for variety, there's always going to be a rock-paper-scissors somewhere at the core of it.

[AstralUniverse]

If someone needs to spend 2 rounds to get rid of my summon in pvp then I feel like I'm up in tempo and the summon has ran it's purpose already. I dont know if breach + wof (or banishmesnt, etc) is a *real* counter anymore. However, the low AC builds who cant shrug off and ignore summons often also happen to have really high damage output that they can often delete the mage anyway.

I think we're fine in regards to pvp, but in pve I still think playing a mundane character in 2022 Arelith is pure suffering.

[-XXX-]

Optimal builds can generally solo most of the PvE content. Parties are rarely formed out of necessity - players usually do it because it's fun.

The summons are necessary for spellcaster characters with limited spell lists to even engage with PvE content. The current iteration of summons barely cuts it in the engame dungeons - but they won't carry the summoner on their own without any support and require consumables to maintain as well.

[chris a gogo]

You are playing a Warlock which has infinite spell casting and a summon if you invest 3 feats/one path and 2 feats.

So saying you have no spell focuses is fine but you still have invested 3 feats into your summon.
Also your coming at this from the perspective of playing a class that makes most content super easy.
The only place i had any issues soloing with my warlock was the Abyss because of high ab/damage spawns that could rip through the summon.

[Tarkus the dog]

you could give high level summons ( conduit, the undead, gate etc. ) some movement speed penalty to get rid if the biggest issue right now which is that they are capable of constantly hitting you once they are hasted and on top of you whether you're running away or not. pcs can't execute this very well.

the fact that mages can solo a lot better than mundane characters doesn't matter as much as the fact that a mage with mass haste and conduit on the loose is enough to create some serious damage by just letting the thing go. it's the old EDK timeline all over again where summons are more deadly than the mage, and not even the blackguard whose whole shtick is a really strong summon doesn't execute that as well as a mage does.

[Royal Blood]

From a handful of encounters I've had I feel like the summons may be a bit over tuned. The ability of classes to effectively remove them has also been limited by changes in the lore required to use scrolls etc.

In my opinion, it is extremely difficult to kill the caster and even with a decent AC of 60 it's certainly not enough to endure the summons on top of likely being repeatedly ward stripped.

The Black Guard comes to mind as one of the most potent. Their summon packs a huge punch and so does the BG itself.

It's hard to give great feedback though. Some people are insanely adequate at PVP and know what they need and how to play and the disparity in skill levels is immense. So what seems over powered to many may for better informed players being something easily side stepped.

There's also a discrepancy in build balance. Not all builds are geared to PVP well some characters and builds will just struggle.

TLDR. It may be with examining summons of some classes. My only suggestion is that maybe the longer the summon is out the lower it's SR is? Maybe like 2 minutes in the SR goes lower. Another 2 minutes it takes another dive.

[Royal Blood]

you could give high level summons ( conduit, the undead, gate etc. ) some movement speed penalty to get rid if the biggest issue right now which is that they are capable of constantly hitting you once they are hasted and on top of you whether you're running away or not. pcs can't execute this very well.

the fact that mages can solo a lot better than mundane characters doesn't matter as much as the fact that a mage with mass haste and conduit on the loose is enough to create some serious damage by just letting the thing go. it's the old EDK timeline all over again where summons are more deadly than the mage, and not even the blackguard whose whole shtick is a really strong summon doesn't execute that as well as a mage does.

I like the idea of a movement speed penalty. As a lady who likes to kite cause I need time to think it setup for a cast I think that could be valuable. It would retain the potency of the summons but for sure make the summoner have to play smart with them.

[-XXX-]

Reducing the movement speed of summons allows melee characters to run straight for the spellcaster unimpeded.
Savvy players are already using acid fog scrolls to this effect - it's often a game winning scenario for the melee character.

I'd advise against making this a default.

[Helsing]

Optimal builds can generally solo most of the PvE content. Parties are rarely formed out of necessity - players usually do it because it's fun.

The summons are necessary for spellcaster characters with limited spell lists to even engage with PvE content. The current iteration of summons barely cuts it in the engame dungeons - but they won't carry the summoner on their own without any support and require consumables to maintain as well.

Saying Optimal builds are all good solo while ignoring power curve of level and investment of equipment is not reasonable. Casters become very strong once they reach 21 and have access to PC and Mummy Dust, while martials scales more lately and rely MUCH more on equipments.

Also it is limited on how many addy ores u can get, like If you are not specifically farming it, the chance you meet an addy ore is rare (from my playthrough with several classes I see ZERO addy ore, yes zero, and I have a 3 classes over lvl 25).

[Helsing]

you could give high level summons ( conduit, the undead, gate etc. ) some movement speed penalty to get rid if the biggest issue right now which is that they are capable of constantly hitting you once they are hasted and on top of you whether you're running away or not. pcs can't execute this very well.

I agree with AstralUniverse on that they might be fine in PvP, the issue is PvE, and reduce movement speed won't resolve this problem. I'd say the right way is just review the overtuned stats of all summons and reduce them to a reasonable level.

[AstralUniverse]

Reducing the movement speed of summons allows melee characters to run straight for the spellcaster unimpeded.
Savvy players are already using acid fog scrolls to this effect - it's often a game winning scenario for the melee character.

I'd advise against making this a default.

I'm in agreement with XXX so it must be correct. Nerfing the summons capped movement by even 10% makes them pretty much none existent in pvp.

I'll reiterate what I've been saying in past threads over the years. If summons are too strong in pvp then summons should instead be very durable to a point they can tank late game content (but clear it much slower than a PC character, ideally) so the content is available for the caster without it being also a death sentence to anyone fighting said caster in pvp. Make the summon durable but less lethal. This also incentivizes grouping because currently if I'm... for example, Hemomencer with conduit, I literally dont even notice if I have a party or not because of how fast everything melts before me in pve.

[Agog_fr]

I agree with many of the opinions expressed here.

I will simply say that for me the problem comes from the great power that a non-specialist can obtain for so little investment. That a Pale Master, that a specialized Druid I don't know, in short, that a build really specialized in Summons, is strong even in PvP is positive. But that "all caster" are strong is not good. As you said AstraUniverse: you don't even notice the impact of other PCs, because you are autonomous and efficient alone.

[-XXX-]

Saying Optimal builds are all good solo while ignoring power curve of level and investment of equipment is not reasonable...

Can I pick any optimized build and use it to solo the majority of Arelith's PvE content? Yes, I can! So that statement is valid and accurate.

Of course there's always going to be a variable degree of difficulty depending on class and build - the game is simply far too complex to make that go away, but even then that's still more of a "choose your poison" kind of a deal than anything.*


Ultimately where balance is concerned the best metric are optimal max lvl builds with optimized gear. How they get there is less a matter of balance and more a matter of QoL and overal gameplay experience, which tends to be subjective.

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*as in, nobody is being forced to play a melee build and surely there must be some reason why people are still doing it even if they find the idea of leveling one unappealing.

[AstralUniverse]

*as in, nobody is being forced to play a melee build and surely there must be some reason why people are still doing it even if they find the idea of leveling one unappealing.

It's not a 1v1 game right? These builds absolutely wreck in pvp if they get the jump on someone unwarded. They also perform better than summons when buffed by a caster rather than their short consumables. There's no reason not to play a mundane character if you're pre-made with friends on a faction since lvl 1.

[-XXX-]

It's not a 1v1 game right? These builds absolutely wreck in pvp if they get the jump on someone unwarded. They also perform better than summons when buffed by a caster rather than their short consumables. There's no reason not to play a mundane character if you're pre-made with friends on a faction since lvl 1.

Which would lead me to believe that the current complaint is much less about summons and more about the QoL concerns regarding outfitting melee characters with optimized gear.

[AstralUniverse]

Which would lead me to believe that the current complaint is much less about summons and more about the QoL concerns regarding outfitting melee characters with optimized gear.

Yup but then why would anyone play casters lol.

I think we're fine.

Casters excel in rofl-stomping pve and leveling faster, having easier gearing etc etc, and mundanes have the higher power ceiling if the character is played for long enough to be really loaded with gear. Time and hard work and pure suffering should pay off.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

This has nothing to do with whether or not summons are too powerful for pve, pretty much every class is save a few dungeons. But if you find that leveling a caster is easier then say a fighter/wm you aren't using line of sight to your advantage against archers and casters and positioning yourself where a mob of ten can't all hit you at the same time against hard hitting melee mobs.

I'm admittedly a bit crazy in the way I play casters, as I have no fear of drawing aggro and micromanaging around it, but with that disclaimer out of the way I'm going to go ahead and say that leveling a melee character is way easier. It's just a bit more expensive.

[ReverentBlade]

If you held a gun to my head and told me to pick a character from my vault for a PvP situation I have no prior intelligence on, I'm picking my rogue over my summoner every time. Useful in far more situations, far more immediately lethal, less vulnerable to dispels, and for more forgiving of player errors.

Casters certainly -can- be lethal in PvP, but you've gotta be prepared, you've gotta have intelligence on your enemy, and you don't have room for many mistakes.

In PvE, as a buff-oriented caster, I'm going to pick a PC as a dungeon companion over my summons any day. I can buff the PC into something that will clear the content much more efficiently than my now mostly naked summons.

PvE solo, I can still do most (not all) of the content I could before the summon nerf, albeit at significantly more risk and expense. I'd still rather the change didn't happen because buffing summons is more fun than playing the crafting and inventory minigame (I detest crafting), but things seem fine.

[Helsing]

When majority of ppls use summons, a word against it becomes negligible