Summons are overpowered

[Tarkus the dog]

With -prays most melee builds have ~1100 hp pool to fall back on, so ignoring the summons and charging straight for the spellcaster would still be a viable strategy even if it took 4 full rounds of swinging to kill the spellcaster.

who have you been traveling with, gimli son of glóin?

the average hp is like 400, if that. join a random lvl 30 party if you dont believe me

[Naghast]

Are you joking-
My wizard has 400 hp.
1d4 health die.

[-XXX-]

who have you been traveling with, gimli son of glóin?

the average hp is like 400, if that. join a random lvl 30 party if you dont believe me

Not even trying here:

300 - d10 hit die
90 - 16 base CON
180 - CON soft cap from gear/buffs
---------------------------------------------------
570

[Kalthariam]

Okay, so what's the math on the conjurations without mass wards?

You know, the thing alot of classes are stuck with, a single sequencer on the buff. No mass wards.

Also why does no one ever bring up the math on the Angel and Eladrin streams? It's always ants and slaadi.

[Helsing]

With -prays most melee builds have ~1100 hp pool to fall back on, so ignoring the summons and charging straight for the spellcaster would still be a viable strategy even if it took 4 full rounds of swinging to kill the spellcaster.

And what you facing is a 66 AC, crit immune Palemaster, prepare to die

Edit: this thread is ending towards PvP memes so better I’d just ignore the rest posts.

[-XXX-]

Okay, so what's the math on the conjurations without mass wards?

You know, the thing alot of classes are stuck with, a single sequencer on the buff. No mass wards.

Classes without access to mass wards can still use the druidic sequencer. Since the STR stat on a max CL spellcaster's summons tends to be even, the difference between empowered mass bull's str (+7) and the druidic sequencer (+5) would be 1AB 1dmg.

i.e.: the numbers would have been smaller (obviously). They are even smaller for builds with 27/3 split that are not waiving discipline.

[Kalthariam]

Yeah sure can hit half the bonus Str/Dex with the druidic sequencer, at the cost of them being dismissable / dispellable, and not having concealment, also doesn't increase con like mass wards do, so they remain squishy.

Still way lower than what anyone with mass wardings can get.

There is a significant difference between having mass wards and not having mass wards.

[Naghast]

Wizards make druidic sequencer nigh useless.
Completely useless if they use undead since stone bones are a thing.

The only ideas i have to fix this would be to give easier access to mass zoo's for other classes (a craftable 1/day mass bears+bulls+cats, or maybe just giving them the spells?)
Or
Making summons completely unbuffable. Even by mass spells. Straight up ONLY affected by sequencers. Not even mass haste. And of course, adjusting their stats to compensate. Or giving them other passives. I dunno.

That would also finally make conjuration spec wizard summoner not garbage, i suppose.

[-XXX-]

Looks like we've gone full circle from "summons are overpowered" to "buff summons for clerics and druids plz".

- Killing mass haste for summons would likely ruin them - especially for PvP.
- While not having access to mass zoo buffs stings, it's better to look at this through the lens of individual summoner kits*
- Sequencers could probably use a little tweak - adding concealment on the druidic and divine ones would help to make the arcane one stand out less.

That would also finally make conjuration spec wizard summoner not garbage, i suppose.

Conju specialists have permahasted summons by default and can now speed themselves up with the predator spell - while they might not be the best wizard variant and can't mass zoo either, I wouldn't call them garbage.

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* currently only arcane spellcasters have access to everything, but they have low BAB and can't melee ever, nor can they cast full CL WoF

[Naghast]

Conjurers cannot cast zoo's
Or haste or mass haste
Or timestop
Or greater sanctuary.

And scrolls don't work for spec wizard. Literally, forbidden school also blocks scroll usage. Their summons end up being weaker than any other wizard's, because of that.

Those are almost essential. I stand adamant by conjurer spec wizards being garbage.

And in this case, maybe clerics and druids and others should be given some cookies.

As for access to everything, it's not arcane casters.

it is only wizards specifically.
Every other arcane caster has to make incredible sacrifices to access mass zoo's. Wizards? Not that much.
Just 6 slots, versus sorcerer's all 3 lvl 6 spells known (so no mass haste, no igms, no true seeing)
6 slots is a much lesser sacrifice here.

[-XXX-]

Also why does no one ever bring up the math on the Angel and Eladrin streams? It's always ants and slaadi.

Celestials: Word 1d12+42+2d12div (61.5) cr:17/x2 = 70.72 | Warden 1d12+21+2d10+2d12div (51.5) cr:20/x3 = 54.07 | Sum hasted round vs AC10 : 569.88
Vs AC54 : Word Archon 46AB : 52.27 / 52.27/ 33.82/ 12.30/ 6.15 | Warden Archon 44AB : 30.90/ 30.90/ 18.02/ 7.72 | Sum hasted round vs AC54 : 244.35

Eldarin: Shiradi 2d6+43+2d12div (63.0) cr:17/x2 = 72.45 | Ghaele 1d8+17+2d12+2d12div (47.5) cr:19/x2 = 49.87 | Sum hasted round vs AC10 : 561.73
Vs AC54 : Shiradi 46AB : 53.55 / 53.55/ 34.65/ 12.60/ 6.30 | Ghaele 44AB : 28.50/ 28.50/ 16.62/ 4.75 | Sum hasted round vs AC54 : 226.42

^added

[Kalthariam]

I appreciate the addition of the math for the other streams.

Now I'm looking at these numbers and trying to figure out what my cleric averages to, since they do not get any of the wards outside of a single cast sequencer that you've mentioned.

I also believe the celestial streams holy damage is only vs evil, unless I missed an update somewhere. Which, you know in alot of cases fine, we're often fighting evil stuff anyways, but losing 2d12 damage because your fighting something neutral is a bit of a downer.

Also for the record, I'm not asking for "Buffs" for Clerics for their summons, I'm asking for equality.

It really grinds my gear all the math people are throwing around are specifically for wizards whom have access to spells that bypass the rules everyone else has to follow, and cannot be replicated on all classes. It's kinda dumb to literally set rules, then immediately allow only certain classes to break said rules and leave everyone else just standing there going "Well okay, guess I'm screwed."

Because if right now you did a mass swath nerf across the board on all summons because all your taking into account is a Wizard being able to mass ward their summons and mass haste it. Then you've killed conjuration completely for classes that cannot mass ward and cannot mass haste their summons.

Also as per an "Indivudual Summoners kit"

As a healer Cleric, of Sun and Healing domains, I get to do exactly this:

One Sequencer (Druid, Arcane or Divine, depending on situation)
Bless
Prayer
Circle of Prot vs Alignment.

Aaaand that's it.

No mass buffs
No haste
If I get SR, I don't get Str/Dex buffs or concealment and ac
If I get concealment I don't get SR or str/dex buffs
If I get Str/Dex/barkskin I don't get SR or concealment.

And as a healer cleric which one of my main ya know.. things being being able to regenerate characters to get overhealing? Yeah I can't do that on summons. At all.

So I can't over heal my summons and I cannot buff their constitution, so they have very low HP compared to people whom can +12 their con (And ya know, +12 str +12 Dex ect ect ect) I've had instances where in a normal dungeon (Example The Deugar Library) my summons have died in a single round because they got focus fired on, and didn't have the ability to withstand the damage they took and I did not have time to heal them. So you know, my one summon a day as a planar conduit user, dead, nothing to be done about it just completely out of luck. Having to prepare extra 9th level spellslot summons to protect you, while you run away, when your epic conjuration dies horribly easily is not exactly what I'd call the pinnacle of the conjurers fantasy.

The best part is my two of my three buffs are rounds / level now too, so I have to reapply them every 3 minutes, I can't even set and forget it, and often I can't even reliably keep them up! Wand durations are even worse! Because their level 1 and 2 spells wands make them last all of about 18 seconds. (Pretty sure both are considered CL 3)

[-XXX-]

Now I'm looking at these numbers and trying to figure out what my cleric averages to, since they do not get any of the wards outside of a single cast sequencer that you've mentioned.

Here you go, unbuffed, unhasted max CL conju ESF:
Celestials: Word 1d12+39+2d12div (58.5) cr:17/x2 = 70.20 | Warden 1d12+18+2d10+2d12div (48.5) cr:20/x3 = 50.92 | Sum round vs AC10 : 433.56
Vs AC54 : Word Archon 43AB : 43.87/ 29.25/ 5.85/ 5.85 | Warden Archon 41AB : 24.25/ 12.12/ 7.27 | Sum round vs AC54 : 128.46

Unbuffed but hasted max CL conju ESF:
Celestials: Word 1d12+39+2d12div (58.5) cr:17/x2 = 70.20 | Warden 1d12+18+2d10+2d12div (48.5) cr:20/x3 = 50.92 | Sum hasted round vs AC10 : 554.68
Vs AC54 : Word Archon 43AB : 43.87/ 43.87/ 29.25/ 5.85/ 5.85 | Warden Archon 41AB : 24.25/ 24.25/ 12.12/ 7.27 | Sum hasted round vs AC54 : 196.58

Keep in mind that most cleric builds have stuff like divine power/favor that help them bridge the difference by going to town themselves (healer Clerics have drawn the short straw atm.)
They also have access to longer duration bless which combined with the druidic sequencer grants the same bonus as empowered mass bull's str* on max CL summons. On top of that evangelists get bard song that buffs the summons even more.

Naghast is right in that the full complement of mass zoo spells is exclusively a wizard thing (who are otherwise in a rough spot admittedly). Sorcerers can maybe afford to take one of the mass zoo spells and even that comes at a very steep price (likely waiving true seeing and relying on scrolls).

Bottom line: allowing clerics to buff summons with the same methods as arcanists do would not necessarily mean "equality" as it'd disregard the differences in the rest of their kits - giving clerics mass haste and mass zoo would absolutely tip the scales in their favor.

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* practically the only thing they are really missing out on during a generic PvE grind would be concealment and ultravision/see invis on their summons. It's not insignifficant, but not the end of the world.
When it comes to PvP, clerics don't need to ultra buff their summons either because when push comes to shove full CL WoF means they'll likely be the only one with any summons left in the field.

[Sincra]

The only reason Clerics would get a mass zoo spell is if we added them to thematic domains, this implies a cost, especially since the reason most divine casters didn't get it was Aura of Vitality being present and functional on either their equipment, domains or selections.

Worth noting, It'd be hard to justify giving all mass zoo on one domain for this reason.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

With -prays most melee builds have ~1100 hp pool to fall back on, so ignoring the summons and charging straight for the spellcaster would still be a viable strategy even if it took 4 full rounds of swinging to kill the spellcaster.

who have you been traveling with, gimli son of glóin?

the average hp is like 400, if that. join a random lvl 30 party if you dont believe me

we don't balance around average player ever.

If we did to average player experiences.. then I could just say how my casual butt actaully finds mundanes easier than epic casters because i never even reach lvl 21 for planar conduit and I don't know the server well so always running into areas where my summosn get nullified etc trying to do writs.

The cookie cutter rogue builds go for 500+ hp

Proper built mages on div/monk dip mages go for roughly 500 hp when they min max their con and intelligence dumping everything else.

a lvl 30 figher (or 25/5) go for almost 600 hp

has 300 base then 16 con + 12 gear (28 mod 9 con mod) for 570+ hp (could easily sneak in toughness for 600 hp while dumping everything into strength on all their level ups).


Barb builds (which can be weaponmaster) go or for higher base and then really high rage hp.

That being said, there seems to be a partial agreement by most people that planar conduit trivialized PvE a lot more than everything else about casters and that it and mummy dust only require level 21. So why are we making people wait till almost lvl 30 for hellball, but lvl 21 for the planar conduit?

[Kalthariam]

Bless is -not- long lasting on a healer cleric.

Our bless got smacked down to rounds / level just like everyone else a few months ago. We have no long lasting buffs we can give to our summons past a sequencer. All of them are rounds / level, one of them is dangerous to cast in a group because the debuff draws everythings attention because magic was cast.

even at an extended level 2 slot (Because I have so many free level 2 slots) at level 30 cleric, I get 60 rounds, or 360 seconds of bless and prayer, so six minutes per spell slot spent (2nd and 3rd level spellslots if extended) or 180 seconds for 30 rounds for 1st and 2nd level spell slots.

Bless used to be Turns / level, it simply is not anymore for anyone.

And my Divine power only gives me a +2 con bonus (Which I don't get because I'm already +12 con) and lets me cast 2nd level healing spells endlessly.. which are still touch spells, and still pretty limited.

So.. again. Literally not even in the same ballpark as other people with conjurations.

Also Evang Clerics are just bards with cleric spells, and bard's have always been buffing machines, but again, they get to bypass the rules because their buffs are AoE, and everyone else gets to simply be SoL.

The fact people are allowed to bypass the rules at all still is ridiculous in my opinion.

it should be either people are allowed to buff their summons, or they are not allowed to buff their summons outside of the specific items given for doing such.

This entire set up where some classes are allowed to go willy nilly and reach very high numbers, and other classes simply are not able to do such is just dumb, because now the classes that are over buffing their summons are making people think conjurations are too strong (Despite someone being -THAT- specialized into buffing conjurations SHOULD have strong conjurations) but nerfing the base summons is going to do nothing but make them useless to people whom cannot put the same buffs on their conjurations.

The Sequencer update was sold as a way to make summons completely streamlined down the line so that it can be balanced around knowing what buffs conjurations were going to get, because before the change the buffs were all over the place based on classes.

Now we're once again back to the point where the strength of summons are all over the place based on classes, so the entire sequencer update was completely pointless.

[-XXX-]

even at an extended level 2 slot (Because I have so many free level 2 slots) at level 30 cleric, I get 60 rounds, or 360 seconds of bless and prayer, so six minutes per spell slot spent (2nd and 3rd level spellslots if extended) or 180 seconds for 30 rounds for 1st and 2nd level spell slots.

Even 5 extended castings represent 30 minutes of consecutive bless* - which is long enough to last throughout most dungeons.
This combined with natural reagents yields the same AB and almost the same DPS as somebody using empowered mass bull's strength on their summons**
With Prayer the numbers get even higher.

Don't get me wrong, I think that healer clerics are bad atm - but not because of how summons work.


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* which is what I meant when I mentioned longer lasting bless - everybody else gets CL 2 bless from consumables and that's it.
** [+7 STR] vs [+5 STR +1AB]

[Hazard]

Let's ditch sequencers and just go back to being able to cast our own spells on our own summons.
Or both. Sequencers to make up for differences in spellbooks, and being able to use our own spells as well because of course we should be able to, it's insane that we can't and haven't back-peddled yet.

[Sincra]

That's an Irongron decision, we cannot decide that nor am I particularly sure it's needed outside targetting tweaks.

[I will never sleep]

Let's ditch sequencers and just go back to being able to cast our own spells on our own summons.
Or both. Sequencers to make up for differences in spellbooks, and being able to use our own spells as well because of course we should be able to, it's insane that we can't and haven't back-peddled yet.

gron

[Hazard]

Guys just do it, he won't notice. Trust.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

I just want to say something in response to something that caught my eye...Summons are not the key to making non-melee casters viable in pvp, making their other spells matter is. I realize that's a tricky balance beam to walk, and yeah, I get thats already being worked on and will take a while. But boosting then nerfing then boosting then nerfing summons like has been going on since I started playing here (and probably long before that) is never going to work. You can (kinda) balance them for PVE, but PVP they are always going to be one or the other... Too strong, or too weak.

[-XXX-]

Pre-sequencer cleric ESF conju, max CL, empowered zoo, aura of vitality, bless, prayer, haste, 42 SR, 64 AC*:
Celestials: Word 1d12+46+2d12div (65.5) cr:17/x2 = 75.32 | Warden 1d12+25+2d10+2d12div (55.5) cr:20/x3 = 58.27 | Sum hasted round vs AC10 : 609.68
Vs AC54 : Word Archon 51AB : 68.77 / 68.77/ 52.40/ 36.02/ 13.10 | Warden Archon 49AB : 49.95/ 49.95/ 36.07/ 22.20 | Sum hasted round vs AC54 : 397.23

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* because magic vestment worked for good aligned summons

[Mattamue]

Does anyone have a video or a combat log where a summon just kills a mundane?

All this white room stuff is nice, but I have a feeling it never plays out like that.

[Morgy]

Conduit summons can be devastating to anyone who doesn’t know what a WoF scroll is… but PvP is not balanced around people who don’t know how to counter things, because this is a game of countering.

If you let a pair of epic summons chase you around, then they will eat you.. if they could afford to be ignored, that would make them pretty pointless.